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...and the PP forums have already crashed at least once. The rules aren't even out yet, people!

And how would you know unless you'd been there, hmm?

They're up. Traffic is high at the moment.

23 minutes to download an 8mg file, lol/

I just downloaded it. Definitely looks like a rough draft, with 'See Page XXX' references, but otherwise looks solid.

Now, I haven't played in a few months (well, maybe even over a year except for Hordes). And I only still play Cygnar. Here's my rough thoughts:

You're going to field more on the board. They roughly divided all the point costs by 10 (so a game might be 50 or 75 points), but a lot went down in points. Solos are mostly 3 points (about the same). A full unit of Trenchers is 11 (vs. like 130 previously). Charger is 4 (vs 75), Ironclad is 7 vs. 100-some. Centurion is less (9 vs 113), but not as much as others. Jack got a boost to MAT.

Looks like most of the Cygnar casters are missing a spell (as in, FOC 6 yields 5 spells), but the remaining spells are mostly the same. Feats are mostly the same it looks like.

And Combined Attacks are in there, but the whole unit does it together or no one does. No more 2-model CRAs for the bonus to hit.

Also, units are now 'codexized'. You're generally buying a Leader and 5 Grunts or a Leader and 9 Grunts.

I wonder if these are test point values. It seems an odd decision to simplify points in this manner.

I doubt that they are test point values. I think it works fine and this is the best time to do something like this.

Basically, they just dropped a digit from many point values. You either take a small unit or a big unit.

A decent sized battle is 100 points, with a full unit taking only 5-10 points from that.

"Honey, what are you doing in there?"

"Nothing, dear."

"Are you downloading something on your computer?"

"Um, maybe?"

"Is it...the porn?"

"Uh, sure. Could you give me a minute? Maybe two?"

"Sure thing, sweetie. I'll get you a rag."

I think I want to run this to kinko's and print a copy or two. Think that's a good idea?

I still can't get the website to open. WTF?

Looks like PP commissioned Jervis Johnson to write the new rules, especially the unit cards. "Dumbed down" would be a massive understatement.

Looks like Fearlessness is severely reduced. None of the Cygnar Storm-units are Fearless, but Laddermore is.

There's a difference between streamlined and dumbed-down. I'm not saying WM Mk II is one or the other, just that there is a difference. If they keep in-game decisions challenging, I would say it's more streamlined than dumbed-down, but YMMV.

I've only read the Cryx deck so far, but I can safely say our tactical choices have been cut down severely.

Read the regular rules first. They might explain the changes.

I did read them first. Other than the slowed point costs, the cure rules are fine. But units lost a lot of their more interesting abilities. Just a few examples:

Gerlak and Bloodgorgers lose the ability to accumulate blood marks, and all associated bonuses
Nerotechs and Brute Thralls lose the ability to immobilize enemy models
Any model that could pick from a list of abilities each turn (Drudge Mind Slaves, Satyxis Sea Witch) no longer does so
Out of activation actions have been almost entirely removed, as has any special ability to move enemy models (like eGoreshade's spell)

Looking at the Cygnar deck, I don't think it's a huge change. The loss of Fearless on the melee units hurts, but if that's game-wide, I'm not that upset about it.

Out of turn activations was one of the worst parts of the game, and frankly, a big reason why I had stopped playing. It was too powerful, and slowed down the game too much.

What I'd like to know is if the game plays quicker. I don't think it will just because you're probably fielding more models now. But, if a typical tourney game would last 6-8 turns instead of 3-4, it would dramatically change how much of an impact Feats and other 'one turn only' abilities affect the game. A longer game also opens up the possibility to do more flanking and maneuvering, where a shorter game really forces you to scrum in the middle of the board.

They said that out of activation stuff would be removed as much as possible. The problem is they are a pain in the ass during Tourney's with timed turns, as not-so-nice opponents can stall for time during your turn.

Classic example is the old Bane Knight rules.

I like how the new Bane Knights work.

I like what I see so far. Don't forget that many rules are now covered by the little symbols under the stat line.

(Looks like M-poc snuck into WM)

malfred wrote:I think I want to run this to kinko's and print a copy or two. Think that's a good idea?

I think the 'stay late at work to meet an important deadline' approach works better, but Kinko's does good stuff too.

dietrich wrote:

malfred wrote:I think I want to run this to kinko's and print a copy or two. Think that's a good idea?

I think the 'stay late at work to meet an important deadline' approach works better, but Kinko's does good stuff too.

Spring Break = no work for better or for worse

I'm very dissapointed with the unit sizes rules (6 or 10) no option for any number inbetween.

Otherwise it all looks good.

i like most of the changes to cygnar i've seen.
most of the guys people are crying over recieving a beating with a nerf bat (like darius) aren't models i use/own

still need to read through the rules, so far i've just glanced through the cards for my army

Things really cost a lot different. They seem to have fixed a lot of the
imbalances. For instance, puking thralls are now the same
price as most heavy jacks for a full unit. My sword knights (aka cannon
fodder) are a lot cheaper. Jacks are now more balanced with infantry,
and all infantry now only has two options. Based unit size, or max unit
size. No more units of 7, 8 or 9. Many of the light jacks were never
used because they died to everything. Most of these are now less
expensive than a full unit of something. Ex: A unit of Stormguard used
to cost 109 or so points. A Defender was 75 points. Defenders were never
used because they were too expensive and couldn't hit anything before
their arm would be blown off. Now a full unit of stormguard costs 9
points and a Defender costs 4 (Keep in mind that most Warcasters give
you 3-6 free points for use on jacks only) and jacks are now better, see
below. Don't Worry not all jacks are uber Cheap. Your most hated of
Cygnar jacks the Centurion costs 9, The lightning shooting Thunderhead costs
13, and Hunters cost 6.

Armies are built for 35/50/100 points now (much simplified). Some casters now
grant you additional points to be used for Jacks in their battle group
only only.

Jacks still function the same, only they have better mat and rat stats,
no longer can have their weapons destroyed and die when all their boxes
are filled in (Matching Hordes beasts now).

Jacks and Warcasters now have the new option of spending 1 focus to
either stand up or remove any stationary effect (this is a direct kick
in the nuts to Khador and Menoth cheese).

No more killing off leaders of infantry. Now when they die you can
promote any grunt to be the new leader. This will be interesting for
multi wound characters and positioning strategies when you kill off your
own guys.

Summary:
This will be interesting. It really seems that Jacks may have a fighting
chance now. I also no longer think we will see beasts scrapping Jacks in
one turn (or at least disarming them) like we used too. The only problem
is that Jacks still need focus just like normal. The new rules seem to
make you want to run a ton of jacks, but you will never be able to buy
extra attacks, or boost them if you do. At least not like you can do
with beasts.

However Kraye (For Cygnar) has severe potential. He can run a crap ton
of light jacks now.

egomine wrote:Jacks and Warcasters now have the new option of spending 1 focus to
either stand up or remove any stationary effect (this is a direct kick
in the nuts to Khador and Menoth cheese).

This is also a bit of a kick in the teeth to Stryker (Earthquake) but as a Stryker player myself, I don't mind. I think the ability for jacks to NOT be shut down for a turn by stationary and/or knockdown gives them a huge advantage over infantry.

This was the big claim to fame of Pirate jacks, but now everyone can have a little love.

Ugh. Each stat card is covered with a bunch of indeciferable icons making you consult the rulebook constantly, instead of the old style of actual telling you what the model does.

Much more confusing, for no real reason that I can see.

True Striker is also effeted. I still like this rule for the same reason RussWakelin mentioned. One interesting question is can you only do this on your turn or will this work like Haley's Arcane vortex which would be interesting for all jack lovers. Personally I think this would be an interesting effect for game play, as watching half your army die on Kreos' (spelling) feat turn is not very fun.

Personally I like the icons. After a few games you won't even have to keep looking them up. Much nicer to see everything in one place rather than having to search all over the back of cards in different places. However it seems they need to add a few more. For example why doesn't armor piercing have an icon? This is basic enough to deserve one, also 360 degree front arc should be another.

Asmodai wrote:Ugh. Each stat card is covered with a bunch of indeciferable icons making you consult the rulebook constantly, instead of the old style of actual telling you what the model does.

Much more confusing, for no real reason that I can see.

I think the icons help because the rules will become universal and clear up space on
the cards. So instead of reading the exact wording of this rule on this model (ugh), you
consult a cheat sheet with all of them.

Pretty soon you get the hang of it.

malfred wrote:I think the icons help because the rules will become universal and clear up space on
the cards. So instead of reading the exact wording of this rule on this model (ugh), you
consult a cheat sheet with all of them.

Pretty soon you get the hang of it.

QFT

As an aside, anyone else noice how many models have 'magic weapons' now?

At work and can't download here...Will have to wait until tonight to have a look.

I'm not a warmachine player (Hordes all the way baby!) but I think that there is a lot of negativity on the boards already from those exact people that Matt Wilson addresses on page 5 of metamorphisis.

I don't like people who look at change as a bad thing. I'd like to know WHY its bad in the context of the larger game.

I like it when someone can intelligently discuss the changes to something in an analytical and thorough manner. Can we have more of that? Thanks for the bits so far.

Its much better to light a candle than curse the darkness.