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I'm thinking about starting warmachine as a supplementary game to 40k which I also only just started in recent months.
I like the look of warjacks and I like the fact you do not need as much on the table, making it a more portable game.
But there are some things that are bothering me before I take the plunge:

1. How is the balance in the game? 40k suffers from terrible codex creep where generally speaking you can easily put armies and army lists into tiers.
2. How much of the game is down to the player and how much is down to the list? Are there certain builds and units that stand head and shoulders above everything else or can you be competitive with anything? Before I started 40k people were saying that it was the player who made the army not the list. That was a lie lol. A lot of the 40k units are utter trash on the tabletop and you are just hamstringing yourself beofre the game has even begun.
3. What is the quality of the models in comparison to GW stuff?
4. How much of the game is reliant on knowing your opponent's army inside out. In 40k target prioritization comes down to knowledge of the opponent's strengths and weaknesses more than just knowing your own guys and having a gameplan.
5. What's the warmachine scene like in the UK (specifically London)? Is it likely to grow/die or only really be successful in the US?
6. Are there any plastic models/ is there going to be a shift to plastic? I really despise working with metal :/
7. How long does a standard sized game last in comparison to a 1500/1750 40k game (which is usually 1hr30 -2hrs)?
8. Is there anything that is currently broken/overplayed/disproportionately common in the tournament scene (think nob bikers, dual lash, jetbike council)?
9. In terms of literature/rule books/templates/counters etc. what will I need?

lol quite a lot of stuff there... but thanks in advance!

I've played both warhammer and 40k for years. My local gaming club recently started Warmachine/Hordes. There are a few major differences between Warmachine and 40k. In general I find Warmachine to be better balanced. Your success depends on your army choices and how they work together in the game. Knowing your opponents force always helps in any game you play.

Warmachine / Hordes (both games use the same basic rules so you can play Hordes on Warmachine games) you can play with as few as three models. The only requirement to play is a warcaster. Where both games are skirmish level, Warmachine is more like playing at necromunda level, small forces probably never more than 50 models. 50 models would be at like a 2000 pt level, which is like playing HUGE games of Apocalypse in 40k. It rarely happens from what I have seen.

Typical games are 350 to 500 points which takes about 1/2 an hour to an hour and some change to play. At 350 points you can play with the contents of the battlebox starter sets which is three to five models. Most people will tell you to start with the battlebox. It contains quick start rules, the models including the required warcaster, some warbeasts or warjacks and the rule cards for each model. That is really all you need to start. Some battelbox combos are more affective than others. In general though they all contain useful models which you will use in a game. Picking up a copy of the basic rules is a good idea, Warmachine: Prime or Hordes: Primal.

There are no magic items/weapons choices in Warmachine. Warmachine is very character driven, there are no "generic warcasters". Each character, solo, warjack, warbeast and unit has its own special abilities. The warcasters and warjacks / beasts are the most powerful things in the game and probably dictate the flow of battles more than anything else. Each warcaster has his or her unique spells and abilities which are used to buff or in conjunction with other models and units abilities. While no warcaster is extremly over powered some have better abilities than other.

To be successful / competative in Warmachine or Hordes you need to pay close attention to what each unit does and what your warcaster can do for each unit. Do a search for Battlecollege on the web. This web sight really helped me choose which warcaster and units to take. While there are a few "stinker units" in general you don't see completely useless units that are a waste of points like you see in 40k. Some units will not work well with your warcaster but might work very well with another warcaster in your faction. Each faction or army has around 6 warcasters to choose from so there is alot of variety.

The really cool thing about warmachine and hordes is you can choose a small force and then if you get bored with it switch warcasters (just one model) and you completely change the way your force plays in the game. Each warcaster's abilities will work differently with your army. Choosing say a chaplain or a librarian in a 40k space marine army makes little difference in the way the entire army plays. Not so in warmachine.

With Warmachines certain combinations of warcasters and units, solos etc. work better than others. Tournament players know which models work well together and use them, so you will see some repetition. There are "power lists" but I don't think its any where near as bad as in 40k. The codex creeps have started to really affect the game from what I have seen. Games Workshop tends to go from hobbling its armies to going full blown power lists.

Privateer Press is slowly moving to plastics. Right now there are less than a dozen models and units available in plastic. On the upside there really isn't much need or desire to "convert" models like there is in 40k. In 40k it is sometimes a neccessity, as they release rules with no models regularly. In tournament play conversions are genrally frowned upon but not illegal. The rule is the model must be recognizable as the original. I think the Warmachine and Hordes models are generally well done. There will always be mold lines from casting but I have had no problems with flash or excessive gaps in metal models when assembled.

I happen to like Warmachine more than 40k. I still play 40k and always will, but for a fast fun game Warmachine works for me. Game play is very fast paced and things will die quickly. If you decide not to go with one of the battleboxes I would definately suggest checking out Battlecollege. There are descriptions of each model, its abilities and what units combo well with it so you won't be wasting your money on a unit or model that doesn't work so well with your other choices. Good Luck.

Well Heavy really summed up all I wished to say on the matter.Yet here's a link to battle college in anyway:

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/

And here's a link to a list of wargamming groups in London,I am not sure if any are specifically orientated towards playing warmachine,but I didn't read the whole list,it's longish and I'm lazy,LOL:

http://www.orcsnest.com/clubs.htm

Well welcome to Warmachine buddy,I hope you decide to play.

Heavygear answered your questions almost perfectly yet still I'd like to throw in my two pennies

Aries_37 wrote:1. How is the balance in the game? 40k suffers from terrible codex creep where generally speaking you can easily put armies and army lists into tiers.

Every new WM/H book brings new and sometimes really powerful units/models for every faction. Yet still you can build a competitive army based only on models from Prime/Primal. I think that speaks for itself.

Aries_37 wrote:2. How much of the game is down to the player and how much is down to the list? Are there certain builds and units that stand head and shoulders above everything else or can you be competitive with anything? Before I started 40k people were saying that it was the player who made the army not the list. That was a lie lol. A lot of the 40k units are utter trash on the tabletop and you are just hamstringing yourself beofre the game has even begun.

In WM/H you build your army around certain synergies/combos you plan/want to use during a game. So 95% it's you who decide what and how to use. There are very few "total trash" models in both systems and even those can sometimes become surprisingly powerful if used correctly.

Aries_37 wrote:4. How much of the game is reliant on knowing your opponent's army inside out. In 40k target prioritization comes down to knowledge of the opponent's strengths and weaknesses more than just knowing your own guys and having a gameplan.

Knowing your own army is a must because you build it around the way you want it to work. Knowing opponent's tricks helps a lot to avoid falling into a trap. However there're too many combos available for anyone to remember them all. So usually just remembering the basics of your opponent's abilities should be enough. That's why in tournaments you're allowed to have two armylists.

Aries_37 wrote:7. How long does a standard sized game last in comparison to a 1500/1750 40k game (which is usually 1hr30 -2hrs)?

The funny thing is, you never know You may win/lose in the second turn or you may play 2hrs or more. One of my friends won a tournament once where the event lasted from 10:00 to 16:30 but his total playing time in all his games was like 35 minutes. The tournament standart for 500pts game is ~90 minutes.

Aries_37 wrote:8. Is there anything that is currently broken/overplayed/disproportionately common in the tournament scene (think nob bikers, dual lash, jetbike council)?

There're are a few armies that are thought to be "no-brainers". But even those are not very hard to beat if you know how do they work and what are their weaknesses. However be aware that certain matchups may be really unfair (like eg. Karchev vs. Deneghra). But again - that's why the tournament format allows two armylists.

Aries_37 wrote:9. In terms of literature/rule books/templates/counters etc. what will I need?

All units/models you buy include their own cards with all stats/rules. So usually Prime Remix (for WM) or Primal (for Hordes) should suffice. Unless you want to know all the fluff. And for me all the books are worth to buy just because of the storyline included.
However keep in mind that in January WM MkII will be released and that means a new "Prime" with new rules.

What you will need in January for Warmachine MKII:

Buy the new Prime and the faction deck of your choice. Those of
us with multiple factions will have to buy lots of faction decks and lots of
faction books later on.

Regarding balance (my biggest gripe about 40k)

I can pretty much guarantee that the better player (or at least the player who makes the fewest mistakes) will win. I can routinely beat the "power lists" you see on the PP forums with normal Nemo (generally considered one of the worst warcasters in the game) just by out playing my opponent.

This kind of balance is both good and bad. If you're starting up with a bunch of vets, you're going to lose -- a lot. But, once you're at an equal level with the other players the game is really deep, really challenging, and really fun.

Thanks for all the replies guys. You've convinced me

A few questions after going through the rulebook though (sorry lol) about infantry units.

1. Do models in an infantry unit have to be killed one by one (not like in 40k where you target the whole squad at once and wounds are allocated across the squad)

2. I get the impression that units are just a group of models who activate at the same time, but otherwise can act indepently as long as they stay within the command area of the leader? ie they can attack different targets and move anywhere they wish?
If this is true does that mean if you kill the one model you were in b2b with then you are no longer engaged in combat with the rest of the unit? Does this not also mean that big powerful jacks like a juggernaut would take forever to take out a single squad of infantry?

Thanks again guys

AFAIK:
Infantry are treated as individual models for targetting etc. So yes, you can (and should) snipe leaders.

You are correct about the activation, as long as the unit ends it's move in formation with the leader/largest in formation group.
Remember that models are engaged if they are within melee reach of the enemy. For most things this is 0.5", but a fair amount have Melee Reach 2". So you can engage quite a few with a jack. Also, jacks have multiple attacks and can buy more with focus, so they can smush multiple guys a turn. Some also have special attacks that let them make an attack against everyone in their front arc etc. In general, infantry can tie up Jacks, but not forever and there are ways to deal with it.
The biggest difference between 40K and Warmachine/hordes for me is that in 40K you make a lot of your decisions at list building level. Warmachine/Hordes allow you to make a lot of decisions on the battlefield, and adapt to situations that arise using buffing spells, debuffing spells, and special abilities.
It makes for very challenging games.

Keep in mind though, there's still a lot of list building in warmachine, but as above, you have a lot more tactics beyond where you deploy something when it gets to fighting on the table.

Aries_37 wrote:2. I get the impression that units are just a group of models who activate at the same time, but otherwise can act indepently as long as they stay within the command area of the leader? ie they can attack different targets and move anywhere they wish?
If this is true does that mean if you kill the one model you were in b2b with then you are no longer engaged in combat with the rest of the unit? Does this not also mean that big powerful jacks like a juggernaut would take forever to take out a single squad of infantry?

You are engaged on a per model basis and can leave combat whenever you please. However if you leave combat then each model that was in combat with you will take a 'free strike' (a melee attack with bonuses) against you.

Massed infantry can be a problem for heavy warjacks, however some heavy warjacks (Devastator, Mangler, Leviathan, Castigator for example) are equipped to deal with them.

Also all heavy warjacks can do a special attack against small based infantry (base size is a game mechanic) called 'Trample'. All models the warjack passes over as it moves are attacked and all but the heaviest armoured or nimble (high DEF) infantry can be destroyed with ease with this attack. You can trample out of combat and you can make additional attacks at the end of your trample move. Tramples are evil in MKII.

Trampling sounds awesome
But do attacks from trample count as 'initial attacks'? So can they benefit from things which give additional dice for initial attack rolls?

Also can you ever have more than one additional dice in a roll? For instance weapons which say they get 1 additional dice damage, as well as the boosted roll for charging, and say 'Signs and portents'- would that be 5d6 minus the lowest die?

Sorry for all the rules questions!

Aries_37 wrote:Trampling sounds awesome
But do attacks from trample count as 'initial attacks'? So can they benefit from things which give additional dice for initial attack rolls?

My inclination is to say no, but I'm curious what effect you're thinking of.

Aries_37 wrote:
Also can you ever have more than one additional dice in a roll? For instance weapons which say they get 1 additional dice damage, as well as the boosted roll for charging, and say 'Signs and portents'- would that be 5d6 minus the lowest die?

Sorry for all the rules questions!

Sure can.

The Butcher pops his feat and charges and hits an Iron Clad (Cygnar heavy warjack).

2d6 base damage
1d6 from charge
1d6 from extra die of damage from Lola
1d6 from feat

Thats 5d6 on the damage roll, and IIRC, the Butcher is P+S16, so against an Iron Clad he would do 15 damage on an average roll.

You can have more than one dice in a roll, yes. But rolls can only be "boosted" for an extra dice once, if you get me. So you can get 3D6 from charging, or 3D6 from focus, one or the other. But then, if you're the Butcher, or a weapon master, or under a buff that just says "roll an additional dice" (like liquid courage for Trolls) or whatever, you can get 4D6.
A fell caller can get 5D6 this way- 2 Basic, 1 from Weapon Master, 1 From Liquid Courage and 1 Boost from charging.

As to trampling, I haven't read MrkII so I'll leave that to someone else.
(As you can see, stacking and layering buffs can make a unit massively more powerful.)

Edit: Oops, I was ninja'd!

Da Boss wrote:As to trampling, I haven't read MrkII so I'll leave that to someone else.
(As you can see, stacking and layering buffs can make a unit massively more powerful.)

Same as MkI but models moved over do not get to make free strikes (regardless of if you hit them or not). All heavy warjacks have +1 MAT over their MKI incarnations and of course if you do take a few free strikes the warjacks can take more damages and are (generally) easier to repair.

Whoah, no free strikes during trample attacks in Mk2?!

I know they removed the minuses to rolls for a lot of power attacks, but I didn't realize they boosted the usefulness of things like trample. Mk2 sounds better and better.

Not to mention warjacks last longer on the field since there's no such thing as being disabled anymore. You have to completely fill in all its damage boxes to kill a warjack. And, if it loses a weapon system it's no longer quite as crippled, but like hordes warbeasts, you just roll one less die when using it instead of not being able to use the system at all.

How have they made jacks easier to repair? Nobody around here uses mechanics except me, but I haven't seen the new mechanic rules yet.

The good news is that infantry is getting their own buffs, including an easier to use formation system, quick promotion of lost leaders, and more.

Vertrucio wrote:Whoah, no free strikes during trample attacks in Mk2?!... ...How have they made jacks easier to repair? Nobody around here uses mechanics except me, but I haven't seen the new mechanic rules yet.

Non for the trampled models, other modes that are moved past may free strike as normal. As for repairs, I was talking from a Cryxian perspective. Menoth still have no mechanics or access to any.

George Spiggott wrote:

Vertrucio wrote:Whoah, no free strikes during trample attacks in Mk2?!... ...How have they made jacks easier to repair? Nobody around here uses mechanics except me, but I haven't seen the new mechanic rules yet.

Non for the trampled models, other modes that are moved past may free strike as normal. As for repairs, I was talking from a Cryxian perspective. Menoth still have no mechanics or access to any.

OR WILL THEY!?

dun dun DUN

(Actually, I don't know)

It's likely they will get a mechanic unit, or one of their current less used units will get some form of repair.

Not having the ability to repair jacks in Mk2 is a huge thing considering how powerful jacks are in Mk2.

I would not be surprised at all if there's a menoth mechanic in the new Mk2 Prime, or army book.

perhaps some merc mechanics that will work for menoth

Some kind of unit of vassal mechanics was mentioned in passing in some
recent background material.

Probably Laelese mechanics from the occupied zone pressed into service for Menoth.

Bunch of choir boys can sing down divine protection for their jacks, but can't even hold up a wrench.

For Menoth repairing warjacks is 'unclean' on several levels, that's why they don't do it in the field. All the Mercenary mechanics will only repair Mercenary warjacks (so far).