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Maybe this isn't the most appropriate place to post but it is certainly a rules question on the finer points of the wording so you guys would be most inclined to be able to answer.

I've seen the rumours that MC's suffer a -1 on the Initiative Test to not be annihilated instantly by this psychic power, but that -1 could be either a -1 to their initiative for the purpose of the test making it harder to pass (they are big lumbering beasts after all and so aren't good at dodging) or could be a -1 to the roll, making it easier to pass the test (It's hard to make such a huge creature just disappear).

If anyone could confirm that they have seen the wording and which way it works I would appreciate it.

Does it specifically mention that a 6 always fails in the brb somewhere?

Otherwise, something like a C'tan could effectively be immune to this power, if they rolled a 6 and got a -1. I wonder if there's some technicality that means they'll succeed even on a 6, since though rolling a 6 always fails, they "actually" rolled a 5?

Interesting to see.

I've seen someone claiming that this is the actual RAW for how it is.

"As a psychic shooting attack, trace a stright line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain. Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test. If the models fails the test, it is removed from play. Monstrous creatures subtract 1 from thier dice roll due to their tremendous size and strength. A roll of a 6 is always a failure."

So it seems the Monstrous Creatures are as I suspected, getting a bonus for surviving against this, rather than a penalty.

Interesting that Jump Infantry get away unharmed too, it makes sense, but I just wasn't expecting it.

Yeah, if that is the RaW, MC's get a bonus, not a penalty.

Nice catch on the Jump Infantry too

Please tell me that jump infantry dont get hurt by it
If so, then i think ill be playing jump BA again

but yea, MC's get help with passing (luckily) however, 6 still means death, even if your a KOS with I10 lol

So does that make a Daemon Prince at I5 immune to this, since you subtract 1, bringing a 6 down to a 5? It says 6 is always a failure, but MCs subtract 1 off their die, making a 6 impossible.

Night Lords wrote:So does that make a Daemon Prince at I5 immune to this, since you subtract 1, bringing a 6 down to a 5? It says 6 is always a failure, but MCs subtract 1 off their die, making a 6 impossible.

A Roll of 6 is always a failure. It doesn't matter if its a roll of 6 and then you subtract 9 million. It is still a roll of 6.

Spellbound wrote:Does it specifically mention that a 6 always fails in the brb somewhere?

Otherwise, something like a C'tan could effectively be immune to this power, if they rolled a 6 and got a -1. I wonder if there's some technicality that means they'll succeed even on a 6, since though rolling a 6 always fails, they "actually" rolled a 5?

Interesting to see.

Something like this would only cause the C'tan 1 auto-wound, due to their special rules.

kuro_khan wrote:

Spellbound wrote:Does it specifically mention that a 6 always fails in the brb somewhere?

Otherwise, something like a C'tan could effectively be immune to this power, if they rolled a 6 and got a -1. I wonder if there's some technicality that means they'll succeed even on a 6, since though rolling a 6 always fails, they "actually" rolled a 5?

Interesting to see.

Something like this would only cause the C'tan 1 auto-wound, due to their special rules.

Depends. IIRC a C'tans rules say that if they were to suffer a hit which would cause "Instant Death", it causes 1 wound instead. This power doesnt say it causes "Instant Death", it simply says remove the model from play. Therefore the C'tan would not benifit and would be removed from play should it fail, reguardless of wounds.

Marius Xerxes wrote:Depends. IIRC a C'tans rules say that if they were to suffer a hit which would cause "Instant Death", it causes 1 wound instead. This power doesnt say it causes "Instant Death", it simply says remove the model from play. Therefore the C'tan would not benifit and would be removed from play should it fail, reguardless of wounds.

Correct.

Marius Xerxes wrote:Depends. IIRC a C'tans rules say that if they were to suffer a hit which would cause "Instant Death", it causes 1 wound instead. This power doesnt say it causes "Instant Death", it simply says remove the model from play. Therefore the C'tan would not benifit and would be removed from play should it fail, reguardless of wounds.

Looking over the C'tan rules they seem to only call out the instant death caused by a wraithcannon, atleast from my cursory examination, unless it was perhaps errata'd or FAQ'd. Which would mean they can be instant death'd by alot of things, I find this a bit surprising but assuming it's true this power would indeed remove them instantly.

Ive been up since 3pm yesterday due to work and just now got home to read my codex. forgive me since im tired, but my codex says a c'tans ability is only vs. Wraith Cannons causing instant death.

Was/is there a FAQ (to tired to look up) or re printing of the codex to include any weapon which causes instant death?

EDIT: Ninja'd by drunkspleen

Apocalypse [D] weapons?

This power better be ridiculous to cast or have some extreme penalty cause that has to be the most broken thing I've seen in a while. Ya those 2 Carnifexs I got in a line. there both dead. Whats your initiative? Oh 1? ya good luck.

CajunMan550 wrote:This power better be ridiculous to cast or have some extreme penalty cause that has to be the most broken thing I've seen in a while. Ya those 2 Carnifexs I got in a line. there both dead. Whats your initiative? Oh 1? ya good luck.

So don't put your carnifexes in a line? Keep them 24" apart? There are so many ways to avoid this its not even funny. Also Shadow in the Warp.

Gwar! wrote:So don't put your carnifexes in a line? Keep them 24" apart? There are so many ways to avoid this its not even funny. Also Shadow in the Warp.

Maybe even don't make lists that will be dominated by certain enemy abilities and instead make lists that can take all comers, rather than whine about the metagame changing.

Just to be clear, not a stab at you Gwar, just sick of all the crying over all the changes in the recent codices.

The C'tan's rule was written when the only thing that caused instant death was things 2x your toughness, which nothing applied to the C'tan since they were T8. No force weapons were high enough S to hurt them, so they just called out the wraithcannon as the only thing at the time to do it.

Now, it's a little different issue. However they DID clarify that Gift of Chaos could kill a C'tan in one go, so it's not impossible, and seems certainly within the range of this psychic power to do.

Looks like necrons might be using pariahs to reduce ld, to attempt to save themselves. As for nids, yeah they have the capability to psychic choir and use shadow in the warp to force enemy casters down to Ld 6 and 3d6, I really don't want to hear THAT much complaining. It's just something else that affects the metagame.

Well, the fex has seemed to cause an issue here, but lets look at this

Most fex's will take either a venom cannon or a barbed strangler ...... Both of which cause instant death to a priest.

All fex's are strong enough to cause instant death in CC to a priest, as standard.

The much loved dakkafex (2 TL devourers) fires 8 shots at S6.
Being TL, you will hit on 4's with re-rolls, giving you 6 hits.
You wound on 2+, meaning 5 wounds. With a 3+ save thats just a tiny bit under 2 wounds, meaning that with a little luck you can shoot him to death.

The fex as standard is more than capable of dealing with him on his own, even if hes hiding with a unit.
So, for everyone complaining about dead fex's, they will only become dead if your dumb enough to let them be killed via dumbass possitioning and movement.

On a note of nid MC's, a flyrant is equally great at killing them, and with any luck you can drop him in turn 1 or 2.
(tyrants I means he wont die easilt aswell)


So, theres that rant out the way
To anyone else complaining - Battlecannons, boomgunz, demolisher cannons, lascannons, milliles, railguns.
above is your ranged answer to them.
why get close enough for him to use the power when you can instant death him at distance?

It's another meta-step in the lash direction is all. It's an ability that you have to understand to tactically avoid a situation where it can be used decisively. There really aren't that many things like that in the game.

With the exception of lash, there isn't anything that jumps to mind that I need more information on other than "shooty or stabby?". Add this power to that list. Until the majority of armies have something in this concept category, expect whining and gnashing of teeth. It's understandable.

Like lash, it's only game breaking if you let it be. The direction I think GW is taking is to slowly penalize players more and more for not knowing the enemies army and abilities well.

JD21290 wrote:
Most fex's will take either a venom cannon or a barbed strangler ...... Both of which cause instant death to a priest.

And can have those wounds put on the squad with him. Good luck getting said priest to take a wound from that weapon.

All fex's are strong enough to cause instant death in CC to a priest, as standard.

How are you getting the fex into CC with the priest, if it can kill you at 24" without much problem?

The much loved dakkafex (2 TL devourers) fires 8 shots at S6.
Being TL, you will hit on 4's with re-rolls, giving you 6 hits.
You wound on 2+, meaning 5 wounds. With a 3+ save thats just a tiny bit under 2 wounds, meaning that with a little luck you can shoot him to death.

Again, you're thinking that someone will be stupid enough to walk their priest around without a squad near him to protect him. And Maw outranges the dakkafex.

The fex as standard is more than capable of dealing with him on his own, even if hes hiding with a unit.

How do you figure? All of the examples you posted are extremely difficult for the priest to actually take a wound from.

To anyone else complaining - Battlecannons, boomgunz, demolisher cannons, lascannons, milliles, railguns.
above is your ranged answer to them.
why get close enough for him to use the power when you can instant death him at distance?

If you're not putting the priest in a pod, you're not using him right. In a pod, the priest is off-table until he lands in a position where he can get as many targets in a line as possible and uses his trick before you ever had a chance to shoot him.

Gwar! wrote:So don't put your carnifexes in a line?

Two carnifexes are, by definition, in a line. You define the line between them, and then drop pod the priest onto it.

Keep them 24" apart?

Because mutually supporting units is a bad thing, right. This is a BS answer. It might keep a fex alive, but at the expense of weakening the army's position overall.

There are so many ways to avoid this its not even funny. Also Shadow in the Warp.

Shadows isn't a bad start. Running a psychic choir is another - although the range of the choir is smaller than that of the Maw, so that means the zoanthropes need to be out in front of the carnifexes, which is also not the best way to run a tyranid army.

JD21290 - except they could put the priest IN a vehicle and in a unit, giving you at least 2 enemy shooting phases (if you wreck they get out behind; at worst a 4+ cover save for everyone) to snipe the carnifexii.

It sounds very overpowered, but it again makes the 5th ed meta game of: put everything in vehicles even more apparent.

I am not certain I have ever heard (let alone been witness to) anyone finding The Shadow in the Warp to be useful at anything other than stopping an opponent from making Perils checks, and well. . . yea.

That may just be me though.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So don't put your carnifexes in a line? Keep them 24" apart? There are so many ways to avoid this its not even funny. Also Shadow in the Warp.

Maybe even don't make lists that will be dominated by certain enemy abilities and instead make lists that can take all comers, rather than whine about the metagame changing.

Just to be clear, not a stab at you Gwar, just sick of all the crying over all the changes in the recent codices.

I would not have considered it a stab at me, as I agree with you.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So don't put your carnifexes in a line? Keep them 24" apart? There are so many ways to avoid this its not even funny. Also Shadow in the Warp.

Maybe even don't make lists that will be dominated by certain enemy abilities and instead make lists that can take all comers, rather than whine about the metagame changing.

Just to be clear, not a stab at you Gwar, just sick of all the crying over all the changes in the recent codices.

Which is to say...maybe even don't play Tyranids?

Tyranids needs Carnifexes. Even non-Nidzilla builds - it's the only place where big guns may be found.

Fortunately, Tyranids will probably get revamped shortly; I'm hoping everything goes to the Space Hulk "blip" system, and my opponents don't get to see which blips are carnifexes until it's too late. Or maybe Shadow in the Warp will become "negate psychic powers on a 2+, but you have to buy this special character zoanthrope."

I have played against this power and it is not devastating but it definately grabs your attention. In my opinion the new codex is fine. There are some things that will be pain in the ass to play against but I would not say this power is broken. I understand phsycic powers are ment to target living things and not vehicles per say but I am sick of all the psychic powers that penalize armies for not having transports. Its as if GW wants to push all the battles to look like parking lots. Deamons, Nids, and Crons all have no chance to even take a transport so they are at the mercy of the lash, this new power, long range blasts, etc.. When you look at the codexs as a whole more or less they are balanced but it is frustrating that vehicle heavy armies do have an advantage.

Janthkin wrote:Which is to say...maybe even don't play Tyranids?

Tyranids needs Carnifexes. Even non-Nidzilla builds - it's the only place where big guns may be found.

Fortunately, Tyranids will probably get revamped shortly; I'm hoping everything goes to the Space Hulk "blip" system, and my opponents don't get to see which blips are carnifexes until it's too late. Or maybe Shadow in the Warp will become "negate psychic powers on a 2+, but you have to buy this special character zoanthrope."

So if you are playing a balanced non nidzilla list why aren't you throwing your genestealers/raveners/the majority of your army which is I4 at him instead of the things he can kill easiest.

Drunkspleen wrote: So if you are playing a balanced non nidzilla list why aren't you throwing your genestealers/raveners/the majority of your army which is I4 at him instead of the things he can kill easiest.

I don't know what game you are playing but in Warhammer 40,000 I do not get to pick where my opponent moves or what he shoots at. Any slowed player can get 1 model withing 24 inches of another model by the end of the 1st movement phase of turn one. Especially when he can have up to 4 models to do it with.

Tyranids were designed to stop broken gak like this from happening to them. The trade off for them to not get vehicles was getting Synapse and MCs that sucked in CC and the HT. Then they were nerfed by 5th so that if you want to win a game you have to field more MCs then during 4th. The ability is broken for 1 army because the army is forced to take I1 base units as their main ranged support. They have no other option for hard hitting range damage. By the end of the shooting phase of turn two, statistically, all fexes should be dead. In reality it will be turn 3. You can not pass 50/50 saves reliably for any period of time and 1/3rd saves are only made because it technically takes time for the snowball to melt in hell.

And before people start shouting out about Tyranid abilities and how they can reduce your Ld test by 1, it's an 18" range vs a 24" range that has a Ld of 9. So what if a Tyranid army can get 2 HTs and 3 Zs within 18" of one point? The guy fails his test and nothing happens for him. Then the OTHER three guys kill, the ones that have Ld -3, -2, -1 or -0 pass their tests and kill all the fexes. CC is even not an option with the little guys because GWs have counter charge or furious charge and Tyranids don't have armor saves.

Honesly, what is their weakness? They excel in ranged attack, CC, movement, warp powers and armor saves. GWs are the perfect army. They are a broken army because they are the best at everything. No edge to take them down.

Now, lets all stop bickering and think how this will really affect the game. When the FAQ comes out it will be replaced with "causes instant death." 5th edition got as far away from "remove model from the table" as it could. This is just another GW typo because they do not know how to check over a book at all. Why are the English so bad at English and why does GW suck at making rule books?

Except the Trickster also removes models from play, so does Gift of Chaos, etc.

They havent removed "remove from play" they have removed "slays outright" - the first allows no saves as it causes no wounds, which simplifies things nicely.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except the Trickster also removes models from play, so does Gift of Chaos, etc.

They havent removed "remove from play" they have removed "slays outright" - the first allows no saves as it causes no wounds, which simplifies things nicely.

I agree. They have in NO WAY removed "Removed from play" effects whatsoever.

There is:
Gift of Chaos
Boon of Mutation (Omg, its a 5th ed codex!!!)
Lukas the Trickster
Jaws of the World Wolf
Shock Attack Gunz going RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Old Zogwort going Squigify

Just off the top of my head. Not to mention that Lukas is more than a WHOLE Blood Claw Squad. That is space wolves thing. They can either spam lots of cheap basic guys, or field a small number of OMFGWTFBBQ Blinged out guys.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except the Trickster also removes models from play, so does Gift of Chaos, etc.

They havent removed "remove from play" they have removed "slays outright" - the first allows no saves as it causes no wounds, which simplifies things nicely.

As does the 6,6 of the shokk attack gun.