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From various novels etc I've picked up quite a lot of info on how assorted Loyalist chapters recruit new Marines.

How do the Chaos legions do it? Are they actually recruiting new members, or are they slowly dying out?

This may well be covered in a current or past Chaos codex, but I don't have any

From what I've heard, all of the CSM are supposed to be from the original Heresy. Time is supposed to work differently in the warp, so they "age" much more slowly than their loyalist counterparts. They've been around for much longer and therefore have more experience than most loyalists. I -think- that's the case anyway. Although, that doesn't make much sense to me since that would mean they're on an even more limited stock than Eldar.

They have a few ways.

1) Fabius Bile. Some of his genetic experiments have resulted in methods of producing more Space Marines. So, for a hefty price, Fabius can help a legion out.

2) Plundering geneseed. Yes, the infamous Huron, darling of the new CSM dex. I'm sure others have managed it too.

3) The nature of the warp. Some of these marines have been living in the eye of terror for so long that, like Daemons, they're not entirely a part of the real world any more. Even marines killed in battle sometimes come back out of the Eye of terror, making imperials quite confused.

Also marines can go to chaos if they choose.

romulus571 wrote:From what I've heard, all of the CSM are supposed to be from the original Heresy. Time is supposed to work differently in the warp, so they "age" much more slowly than their loyalist counterparts. They've been around for much longer and therefore have more experience than most loyalists. I -think- that's the case anyway. Although, that doesn't make much sense to me since that would mean they're on an even more limited stock than Eldar.

No, it said somewhere that almost fifty full chapters have turned since the heresy.

In the previous Codex there was a mention of a chaos-worshiping feral world where some chaos space marines recruited, and something else where it was mentioned that they recruit from worlds within the eye of terror. Also, in the novel Storm of Iron, the whole point of invading that planet was to steal massive amounts of frozen gene-seed, and they were successful.

If they can steal and use gene seed why don't we see chaos scout marines in neophyte armor? do they skip the scout phase completely?

Legions turning to chaos is the most common, still don't understand how chapters like the world eaters could still be out there...the only chapter that i understand still being around for chaos is the thousand sons

Eldarranger wrote:If they can steal and use gene seed why don't we see chaos scout marines in neophyte armor? do they skip the scout phase completely?

I would expect that they just chuck them headlong into battle and yell after them "get used to it!" Much like the SW bloodclaws. If they die, they weren't cut out to be marines!

The Iron Warriors use a freaky system called Daemonculaba

Thelaugher wrote:Legions turning to chaos is the most common, still don't understand how chapters like the world eaters could still be out there...the only chapter that i understand still being around for chaos is the thousand sons

Please note that "Legion" and "Chapter" are not interchangeable. "Legion" refers to the original First Founding Astartes formations. "Chapter"= post- Heresy Astartes formations. Original traitors of the Heresy ( eg. World Eaters, Thousand Sons etc. ) are still referred as Legions. They never went through with the reforms that the Loyalists did after the Heresy.

As to the OP question about recruitment. Yes, the Chaos Marines do recruit new members. Index Astartes article in an old WD ( in storage, can`t remember number ) about the Alpha Legion talked how the Imperium was frustrated in its attempts to destroy them. They were declared destroyed several times but always surfaced with new strength, so the Legion must have an ongoing recruitment program to replace losses.

Iron Warriors recruit people from sieged planets, and become them CSM by a mechanical, chaotic method (I don't knoe exactly how).

A-P wrote:Index Astartes article in an old WD ( in storage, can`t remember number ) about the Alpha Legion talked how the Imperium was frustrated in its attempts to destroy them. They were declared destroyed several times but always surfaced with new strength, so the Legion must have an ongoing recruitment program to replace losses.

With the Alpha Legion, I would bet no one had any idea how powerful they were at full strength anyway.

They're pretty good at faking their own deaths.

Some Chaos legions do it similarly (but more brutally) than regular Astrates, take a teen boy from a conquered world, implant him with the geneseed of a fallen warrior, do some Chaos mumbo jumbo and profit.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

A-P wrote:Index Astartes article in an old WD ( in storage, can`t remember number ) about the Alpha Legion talked how the Imperium was frustrated in its attempts to destroy them. They were declared destroyed several times but always surfaced with new strength, so the Legion must have an ongoing recruitment program to replace losses.

With the Alpha Legion, I would bet no one had any idea how powerful they were at full strength anyway.

They're pretty good at faking their own deaths.

True. But although the article obviously did not give any numbers its clear that the High Lords of Terra were confident that the verified casualties were enough to warrant the declarations. Regardless on how good at deception the Alpha Legion is I would believe that faking Astartes bodies is not possible. When faced with 50 dead Traitors I am sure the Inquisition will appear and make a detailed study of the remains and circumstances. If the bodies are missing Astartes specific organs the Inquisition would cry foul.

But how do you know the High Lords of Terra received the real numbers? There's enough bureaucracy between them and the primary sources for some of the reports to have changed quite a bit along the line.

Orkeosaurus wrote:But how do you know the High Lords of Terra received the real numbers? There's enough bureaucracy between them and the primary sources for some of the reports to have changed quite a bit along the line.

Dunno. This is all speculation based on an old Index Astartes article. But like I said, I believe the activities of Traitor Legions is covered extensively by the Inquisition and they generally do not bother with bureaucracy. They even have a permanent seat with the High Lords ( the Inquisitorial representative ). The Ordos have the means to make themselves heard by the High Lords.

Ah. Found it. The article ( "The enemy within" ) can be found in White Dwarf #277. According to the article: "The last pockets of Alpha Legion forces were declared eradicated in a proclamation by the High Lords of Terra at the end of M.32, but subsequent attacks proved this to be untrue. Similar declarations were made during M.33 and as recently as M.39." You certainly can not blame the Imperium for lack of trying . The part about the recruitment is a piece of text describing an Inquisitiorial Conclave at Ikrilla, where Inquisitor Kravin warned that "the only possible answer ( to how losses are replaced ) is that new Chaos Space Marines are being recruited and genetically modified somewhere within the Imperium...".

Just cause someone turns chaos, doesn't make them a CSM. They first must get an interview.

Chaos Marine Recruitment Interview
"So, why should we pick you to be part of Chaos Mr...?"
"Johnes"
"So Mr. Johnes, what makes you CSM material?"
"Umm... I can shoot a bolter in a straight line?"
"So can a gaurdsmen with enough practice."
"Umm... I killed my cat?"
"Ok, homicide,... any reason why?"
"He looked at me funny."
"Intresting, I can really see that some Khorne in you, but we need more then just innocent homicide. Any rape happen recently?"
"No." The interviewer crosses out slanesh (excuse spelling)
"How about plagues? Have you plagued anyone at all?"
"Well, I did give someone small pox and it spread throughout the mess hall."
"Very good, did anyone die?"
"No."
"Well, that removes Nurgle and Slanesh. I'm sorry, but that makes 2 out of 3 chaos gods. You need a vote of 2 or more."
"What about tzeench?"
"We don't count him in the vote, he always changes his mind."
"Are you sure there is no other way?"
"Well, lets see if you have enough Khorne in you to make it in. How many kills do you have?"
"231"
"Hmm... thats average for a Marine. Who were they?"
"some marines with horns."
"Leave now!"

He passes by a secretary.
"Have a nice day "

A-P wrote:But like I said, I believe the activities of Traitor Legions is covered extensively by the Inquisition and they generally do not bother with bureaucracy. They even have a permanent seat with the High Lords ( the Inquisitorial representative ). The Ordos have the means to make themselves heard by the High Lords.

The problem with the Inquisition is the opposite, though; they have little central authority, little ability to keep track of their peers, and little in the way of formal ranking. Even the Inquisitorial Representative is just that; a representative of a group with no true leaders. Look at how factitious they can be; Radical and Puritan, Thorian and Monodominant, followers of Kryptman and those who called him a heretic.

The real problem with what the Imperium knows is simply the scale of the thing; millions of ships and astropaths, trying to stay in communication with each other when it can take years to send a message. Even the Inquisition's resources can't keep that kind of a tab on everything.

Ah. Found it. The article ( "The enemy within" ) can be found in White Dwarf #277. According to the article: "The last pockets of Alpha Legion forces were declared eradicated in a proclamation by the High Lords of Terra at the end of M.32, but subsequent attacks proved this to be untrue. Similar declarations were made during M.33 and as recently as M.39." You certainly can not blame the Imperium for lack of trying . The part about the recruitment is a piece of text describing an Inquisitiorial Conclave at Ikrilla, where Inquisitor Kravin warned that "the only possible answer ( to how losses are replaced ) is that new Chaos Space Marines are being recruited and genetically modified somewhere within the Imperium...".

I think this would have to come into place regardless of casualties caused by the Imperium though; they're a 10,000 year old legion. They don't live in the Eye or the Maelstrom, which means even if they're flawless in their assaults they're going to start dying of age.

By the time they were declared eradicated the original Legionnaires would have had to have been older than Dante to still be active.

Orkeosaurus wrote:]I think this would have to come into place regardless of casualties caused by the Imperium though; they're a 10,000 year old legion. They don't live in the Eye or the Maelstrom, which means even if they're flawless in their assaults they're going to start dying of age.

By the time they were declared eradicated the original Legionnaires would have had to have been older than Dante to still be active.

A valid point. But since we are talking about the most secretive of Legions, we really don´t know. What little canon information we have points to a vast, underground organization spread all over Imperial territory. Most likely non-Imperial too. We simply do not know what contacts and resources Alpha Legion has in Warp areas like the Maelstrom and the Eye. Actually considering their MO, I find the idea that they would not have any to be very unlikely. So I would not eliminate the possibility of veterans of the Heresy still being around.


PS. All this talk about the Legion with the Hydra emblem has filled my head with classic Marvel imagery. "Hail Hydra! Immortal Hydra! We shall never be destroyed! Cut of a limb and two more shall take its place!"

Perhaps they clone Chaos Space Marines to make more.

A-P wrote:A valid point. But since we are talking about the most secretive of Legions, we really don´t know. What little canon information we have points to a vast, underground organization spread all over Imperial territory. Most likely non-Imperial too. We simply do not know what contacts and resources Alpha Legion has in Warp areas like the Maelstrom and the Eye. Actually considering their MO, I find the idea that they would not have any to be very unlikely. So I would not eliminate the possibility of veterans of the Heresy still being around.

True, I would expect them to maintain a few outposts there. Lots of resources to be had; alliances with other Legions, immortality, good conditions for warpcraft, refuge from Imperial scrutiny.

PS. All this talk about the Legion with the Hydra emblem has filled my head with classic Marvel imagery. "Hail Hydra! Immortal Hydra! We shall never be destroyed! Cut of a limb and two more shall take its place!"

That's part of their charm.

And it is strongly implied that they have agents within the Inquisition itself. Pull a few strings, jiggle a bit here, interfere with a message there, and the Inquisitor in charge of checking the bodies is one with a hydra tattoo concealed somewhere on his person.

Any 'errors' can be blamed on someone somewhere along the chain of information on the way back to Terra.

I heard that we take Geneseed from falled marines and basically get some of our strongest slaves and preform "Surgory" on them to make new Chaos Marines.

Times meant to work differently in the eye of terror, i think?

Morgrim wrote:And it is strongly implied that they have agents within the Inquisition itself. Pull a few strings, jiggle a bit here, interfere with a message there, and the Inquisitor in charge of checking the bodies is one with a hydra tattoo concealed somewhere on his person.

Any 'errors' can be blamed on someone somewhere along the chain of information on the way back to Terra.

You deserve some kind of cookie or pastry for this observation.

Yeah, wasn't it stated in the fluff of the Alpha Legion that they made connections any members of the imperium that seemed to be useful sometime ago?

I assume that some of these agents might have gone "inactive" over the years, but you never know. Some might be still around and kicking...or at least their descendents

Legion Apothacaries would have the same knowledge as current Chapter Apocthacaries....so they probably understand the need and value of collecting the geneseed of fallen Battle brothers. Additionally, Chaos Warbands probably wouldn't sneer at taking Geneseed from fallen Astartes that were not of their cult, legion or gene father (Primarch!).....