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So I was wondering about the difference between psykers and chaos sorcerers when I stumbled across a paragraph on page 31 of the CSM codex (control your jeering) that indicates that psychic energy is "derived" from the Warp (whatever that means) and goes on to say "but the greatest conjurations can only be achieved with daemonic energy." First of all, I thought daemons were the animated essence of the warp just like their parent "gods." Second of all, I thought the whole Warp and everything in it was psychic energy. But apparently there is some difference between psychic energy (the Warp at large?) and "daemonic energy" or, as the paragraph also says, the "daemon's own essence." So anyway, the Chaos Sorcerer seems to make a deal with a daemon to use its essence as a "conduit" through which he accesses the Warp in order to pull out psychic energy. Finally, somehow this is the same manner in which daemons "sustain themselves on the material plane."

Could someone help me make sense of this? And does it have anything at all to do with the way (any kind of) magic works in WHFB?

NB: If you're tempted to answer anything like "who cares? it's just a game and GW doesn't even know" then please deeply reconsider both the wisdom and the necessity of your presence here in the 40K Background forum. And then remove yourself.

From what I've gatherd Manchu is that standard Psykers (the non pointy-shouldered kind) are taught to derive their power from the warp with stringent controls as not to utilise their full powers but also not to draw the attantion of daemons to them.

I believe the more chaotically inclined pay no heed to these limitations and draw on whatever Warp power they can get be it the raw warp, daemonic essence or other warp-entities.

Either that, or when it says "but the greatest conjurations can only be achieved with daemonic energy" perhaps it refers those who are actual hosts of daemons, wielders of daemons as weapons or possessed by them. There is no creature more skilled at wielding the powers of the warp than the actual denizens of the warp itself, so maybe it refers to the most powerful sorcerors being the ones who give themselves over fully to chaos (daemonic possession)

I think that it can be explained thus:

A person who can get in contact with the warp (a psyker) can only draw on power from the warp to the limit of their abilities (which could be very limited, or every extensive).

A person who makes a pact with a daemon (an entity which lives in the warp) can draw on power through the daemon whether they have warp contact or not (so they don't have to be a psyker) to the limit of whatever the daemon can or will supply to them. Thus the more powerful the daemon they are working with, the more energy they may be able to draw on, but also the more likey the daemon will trick them.

The warp itself is, as I understand it, a dimesion entwined with our own, which reacts to the thoughts of those in the material relm. Thus it could be seen as being made up of psychic energy. Daemons and other entities in the warp are made up of particularly strong or coherent psychic energy that has somehow congealed into an entity (such as how the eldar created a god by the focussing of so much energy and thought on a particular activity).

In regards to daemons on the material plane... I think they use the physical bodies of those they take over much the same way as we would use a remote control car (but with a bit more of themselves invested in the car). They take over and warp the body and rampage through reality, but they themsleves do not cross over entirely, they are still linked to the warp and are just using the phsyical body in the material relm.

I'll make an odd comparisson, but, have you watched The Lord of the Rings movies by New Line?

Gandalf and Saruman seem to be able to do weild raw magic, but they seem to prefer to use their staffs as channelers. I seem prone to believe that daemons work that way, as a stabilizer, so, without pacting with one makes you able to manipulate the warp a little, doing some "spychick tricks" but not so much.

Well, the paragraph is called "daemonic pacts" as a reference to the source of a Chaos Sorcerer's power. I don't think this possession.

I guess my real question is something like "what is a daemon in contrast to the Warp itself." For example, a Chaos Spawn is mortal flesh mutated past discernible humanity by the influence of the Warp in the form of "gifts" from the gods. Ascending (descending) to daemonhood, on the other hand, is the substitution of mortal flesh with the "immaterial substance of the Warp" (p.11). What is this "immaterial substance" and how can it exist in the material world? It seems like the paragraph on p.31 answers 'through the expenditure of psychic energy.' I don't get, even in terms of fantastical scifi physics, what is going on here.


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SilverMK2 wrote:The warp itself is, as I understand it, a dimesion entwined with our own, which reacts to the thoughts of those in the material relm. Thus it could be seen as being made up of psychic energy. Daemons and other entities in the warp are made up of particularly strong or coherent psychic energy that has somehow congealed into an entity (such as how the eldar created a god by the focussing of so much energy and thought on a particular activity).

If my question is still unclear, this is the sort of answer I was hoping for.

Sil, please go into greater detail if possible.

Manchu wrote:Well, the paragraph is called "daemonic pacts" as a reference to the source of a Chaos Sorcerer's power. I don't think this possession.

I guess my real question is something like "what is a daemon in contrast to the Warp itself." For example, a Chaos Spawn is mortal flesh mutated past discernible humanity by the influence of the Warp in the form of "gifts" from the gods. Ascending (descending) to daemonhood, on the other hand, is the substitution of mortal flesh with the "immaterial substance of the Warp" (p.11). What is this "immaterial substance" and how can it exist in the material world? It seems like the paragraph on p.31 answers 'through the expenditure of psychic energy.' I don't get, even in terms of fantastical scifi physics, what is going on here.

In the same way that force fields etc work by supplying power from a source (generator) to create a "solid" field, a daemon created a physical shell by drawing energy from the warp to create a "solid" body/etc.

It is the same way I think all psychic powers work in 40K... energy is drawn from the warp to create some real effect (either physical such as lightning, moving objects) or mental (pain, visions, etc) in the world.


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Manchu wrote:Sil, please go into greater detail if possible.

I will give it a go, but I don't know how much I am actually going along with 40K cannon.

Here is a link to info about the warp on lexicanum that might give you a bit more official info on it, but it does not really say all that much: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp

To seperate "the warp" from "warp entities" I guess would be akin to seperating "computer programs" from "AI".

If you had a computer network (such as the internet, aka the warp), a random mass of information, programs, porn, spyware etc and left it running on its own for long enough, programs would start to crash or malfunction, simple adaptive programs might start growing more and more complex and form bigger and better programs (simple warp entities), etc. They might go on to absorb other complex programs and form even bigger better programs (low level daemons/entities).

At some point, the program would be complex enough to form its own thought processes etc and would becom AI (daemons/gods).

Now, if we add into this senario external factors, such as programmers (psykers) trying to exploit the internet to steal information (divining), or use the internet to cause damage etc (casting spells), or who actively write complex programs to attack things (summoning, or even the whole Eldar doing bad things to create a god), we have something like the warp and real space.

Kinda...

I hope that is not really confusing as I just made it up off the top of my head.

Again, let me refocus as your first response makes more sense to me than the second. What is the relationship between the immaterial of the Warp and the material of the universe? It seems that they are somehow interchangable. Daemons create bodies, Chaos Champions become daemons . . . I do not doubt that there is some kind of internal logic here (beyond a cop-out "because it's not real hurr durr") but I'm failing to grasp it.

Manchu wrote:Again, let me refocus as your first response makes more sense to me than the second. What is the relationship between the immaterial of the Warp and the material of the universe? It seems that they are somehow interchangable. Daemons create bodies, Chaos Champions become daemons . . . I do not doubt that there is some kind of internal logic here (beyond a cop-out "because it's not real hurr durr") but I'm failing to grasp it.

Ah, ok.

Hmmm....

The warp is kind of like a mirror universe to our own I suppose, where thought and energy are the main constituents rather than matter and energy. The warp is linked the the material world (hence you can fly ships through it, planets etc disturb the flow of warp currents etc) in some way that I am not quite sure of. But as indicated, thought, emotion and some physical things (planets) will have an impact on what happens in the warp.

Someone drawing energy from the warp will attract any warp entities in the "area" who will either try and consume the psyker, take them over, break through to the material world, or hunt the other warp entities. I guess you could equate them to being like a light suddenly switching on in the warp, and the entities flock to it like moths to a flame. Though probably a more accurate assessment would be that someone drawing energy from the warp is like someone suddenly pulling the plug in a tank full of water, and the fish swimming in the tank swim towards the drain on the water.

So if a psyker draws energy from the warp to create some effect in the real world, the emotions and thoughts in the real world must somehow not only affect the warp but in some way represent energy transfer back into the warp (which might explain why daemons are drawn to lots of violence etc where feelings will run strong, and hence explain why the warp/materail divide can be more easily be breached at these locations (hence why summonings take the place of sacrifices more often than not)).

And conversely when a daemon breaks through into the material world, it draws energy from the warp to sustain itself from being destoyed by the material world (I guess in the same way that a person needs air, a daemon needs to keep "breathing" the warp to continue existing. A persons body may represent some form of protection for a daemon in the material world - kind of like a scuba suit to a person who goes diving (hence why taking over people is the no1 choice for today's modern daemon), rather than appearing as a direct manifestation in the material world, as that is more difficult and requires more energy.

To become a daemon, I think you need to simply impress yourself upon the warp with enough force. Anything too weak and you will be torn to bits by the warp, or any creatures there. Few people are able to do this themselves, so they may have a patron daemeon or god who will help them into daemonhood.

Most races have psychic abilities, or psychicly sensitive minds.. Their emotions give off psychic energy which is what gives the warp its energy, which has also given birth to the Gods of the warp.

someone who is very strong psychicly can tap into this, draw upon the energy and make it manifest itself in the form of psychic powers.

It's kind of like jedi and sith. They can both use the force, but one side is seduced by the power it offers. in which case they are seduced by deamons with the offer of greater and greater power, which they may actually get except at a price..which is usually their souls/freedom.

I always thought The Imperial guys were Soul bound to the Emprah and the chaos guys used a more risky method of allowing the gods daemons to help power them.

Soul binding seems to be the better choice. Pathetic weakling sanction psykers can defeat huge deamons in the Fluff and in TT Njal laughs at you..

Psykers draw upon their own power, sorcerors draw upon a daemon's power (whom they previously made a pact with)

You have to be born a psyker, but anybody can be a sorceror. Though a person who is both will be extra powerfull.

Catagorizing warp energy is illogical becuase it's pure chaos, and completely random. The warp has no equivalent to the laws of physics. The real world of 40k operates on hollywood physics, but it still follows the laws of hollywood physics.

Lastly the waagh is the Ork's equvalent to the warp, and follows orky logic while the warp follows no logic at all.

Dark Heresy talks about pacts with greater daemons as being practically the same thing as soulbinding to the Emperor, although with slightly different consequences (like gaining mutations instead of losing your eyes, etc). Since soulbinding is done both to increase and focus the psyker's power and to bind them to the Emperor (giving limited protection from the warp and probably compelling loyalty) I'm guessing pacts run a similar way. You make a pact with a greater daemon, your power levels shoot up, and you won't get randomly possessed by some minor daemon milling about and probably get resistance to those of competing gods. In exchange you are serving as a mortal vassel working for the benefit of that daemon and furthering their goals, and probably have the option to get possessed if needed and if doing so is more helpful than not (hosts have drastically reduced lifespans). Oh, and your soul will end up in that daemon's bit of the warp upon death and strengthen him, but you (probably) won't be self aware enough after death to worry about that.

I think sorcerers may be those doing demonically friendly things, like the sacrifises and summonings, but not controlling the psykic energy themselves. They're just weakening the veil enough to let the daemons have an affect on the materium, or acting as a staff or channel for the daemon to send the energy through, not so much the other way around. It isn't their energy, they're just directing it.