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I wonder if I'm going to get flamed for this.

Whenever close combat in 40k comes up it seems like the same comments crop up: totally impractical, only exists for the rule of cool, modern military has demonstrated how worthless CC is, etc.

I don't know that I wholly agree. Certainly 40k is more focused on things being awesome than realistic, but I don't think it is quite as bad as people make it out to be. So here is an alternate perspective.


First I think it is worth examining why close combat has lost its importance in the modern world.

First of all, ranged weapons technology has far outstripped armor technology and CC weapons. Our most armored units can be minced by a well placed an anti tank round, and our best body armor gives under an armor piercing round. What's more, the munitions required to overcome this armor is comparatively cheap and widely available. But close combat weaponry can barely scratch even fairly light body armor. On top of all that guns are simpler to kill with effectively than any other weapon devised. You can have a peasant combat ready with an ak-47 with less than 15 minutes of training (obviously they are horrible shots and have no discipline or tactics, but they can point and hold down the trigger to unload their fifty round clips, and are much more deadly with much less training than their peasant mob counterparts 1000 years ago). The choice is fairly obvious.

On top of that, we only fight people with similar technology and ideologies as ourselves, and fights always happen in a terrestrial setting.

Finally, we are very soft and squishy. It doesn't take much to remove us from the fight. It is in our best interests to avoid getting wounded at all costs.

If we look back to when melee weaponry was king we see a very different world. At 1000AD armor had FAR outpaced weapons technology, the ranged weaponry necessary to harm a knight (primitive bows and iron tipped arrows) was rare, temperamental, expensive, and often could not complete the job. Before the longbow, cross bow, and the gun became commonplace a trained knight on a horse was worth dozens of unarmored peasants. There were nations that utilized ranged weaponry, but only with lots of resources dedicated to making it possible.

Their stones and primitive bows could rarely if ever damage the armor of a knight. Only melee weaponry could reliably harm one of these seemingly super human monstrosities, and a wide of exotic weaponry was devised to try and counter this devastating engine of war. War picks and hammers, hooks, variouse stabbing implements, large two handed weapons, a truly dizzying array of pikes, awls, halberds, etc., thousands of varieties of swords, each trying to gain an edge in dealing with heavily armored enemies.

Additionally you never knew what weapons another culture would use. Muslim nations, various european nations, slavics, and mongols each had unique technologies and methods of warfare.

Which of these two eras sounds more like the universe of 40k?

So, why does melee weaponry have a place in 40k, using this logic?

Armor has once again outstripped the power of commonly available ranged weapons. This is huge. For many armies melee weapons are the only cheap and common tool for dealing with heavily armored foes.

Non-soft squishy armies that WANT to get up close and personal. Orks alone would have been enough to force the re-introduction of melee weaponry. Space marines, daemons, and tyranid may all decide that a shot to the gut is a small price to pay if they can get their melee weaponry into the middle of a bunch of squishy, poorly armored, range focused troops.

Non-terresterial battlefields: Notice that even after the advent of gun-powder, melee weaponry was the tool of choice for naval warfare. When things get too close, you will wish you had some help if things get up close and personal. Space and alien worlds add additional complications that favor melee weaponry. If a gun can hurt a necron or a terminator, it may also be able to pierce a hull, or damage life support machinery?

Finally, and this is pure speculation, but I have the suspicion that anti-emp shielding and jamming technology are more ubiquitous than we have been led to believe. My guess is that they are so common they are not even mentioned. The techpriest considers it a shrine of imperial protection that you always bring to battle, the eldar simply have it built in to everything, while the tau may do it in a more traditional fashion. Regardless, armies seem to be unable to target foes from kilometers away. This isn't much of a stretch either, jamming is fairly ubiquitous among modern militaries, but rarely mentioned. It is just something you do.

So in conclusion, melee weaponry is not "unpractical" and fantastic as many seem to believe, but an important consideration for all armies in the 40k universe. Because admit it, if you are a space marine, don't you feel just a little better knowing that even though the tau outnumber you 3 to 1, even though they have advanced weaponry and technology, if you can just get your chainsword into the middle of those fire-warriors, this fight is OVER! MWAHAHAHAHA! Jump jets, activated.

Thoughts?

Yeah.

What A well thought out and insightful contribution, Ivan.

@OP: I very much like what you say here, and I agree. Melee weapons are completely practical in 40k. In addition to the Orks, who are weak at shooting and prefer to get choppy, there are the Tyranids who must be within arms reach to omnomnom their opponents faces, as well as the forces of Khorne, who in their deranged insanity revel in slaughter in close range. For whatever reason, these militaries have largley thrown ranged fighting to the dogs, and have a close combat focus.

Attempting to gun them down as they rush in for the attack is one tactic, but forces as vast as Tyranids or Orks have sufficient numbers to close. As an example, once in hand to hand (or hand to talon, with the 'nids) combat, it is possible to grab the barrel of an opponents firearm, rendering it useless if shoved out of the way. It is much more foolhardy to grapple with an enemy posessing a whirring chainblade or activated power weapon.

There is also the cultural aspect, as exemplified by Champions of the Black Templars, amoingst others. Practical or not, the reality of the 40K universe is that the Imperium of Man has regressed to a state where ritual combat is commonly seen on the battlefield, champions seeking each other out in battle to engage in dueling. Entire campaings are often decided on the outcomes of these matches, the loss of an armies hero breaking morale, and diminishing a units killing power.

Ignoring this aspect of the contemporary battlescape is an assured way to be dominated by an enemy more aware of the significance of close quarters figting.

Commander Endova wrote:What A well thought out and insightful contribution, Ivan.

@OP: I very much like what you say here, and I agree. Melee weapons are completely practical in 40k. In addition to the Orks, who are weak at shooting and prefer to get choppy, there are the Tyranids who must be within arms reach to omnomnom their opponents faces, as well as the forces of Khorne, who in their deranged insanity revel in slaughter in close range. For whatever reason, these militaries have largley thrown ranged fighting to the dogs, and have a close combat focus.

Attempting to gun them down as they rush in for the attack is one tactic, but forces as vast as Tyranids or Orks have sufficient numbers to close. As an example, once in hand to hand (or hand to talon, with the 'nids) combat, it is possible to grab the barrel of an opponents firearm, rendering it useless if shoved out of the way. It is much more foolhardy to grapple with an enemy posessing a whirring chainblade or activated power weapon.

There is also the cultural aspect, as exemplified by Champions of the Black Templars, amoingst others. Practical or not, the reality of the 40K universe is that the Imperium of Man has regressed to a state where ritual combat is commonly seen on the battlefield, champions seeking each other out in battle to engage in dueling. Entire campaings are often decided on the outcomes of these matches, the loss of an armies hero breaking morale, and diminishing a units killing power.

Ignoring this aspect of the contemporary battlescape is an assured way to be dominated by an enemy more aware of the significance of close quarters figting.

OK here is more insightful contribution.CC is practical in 40k because ranged weapons can't take some foes like space marines,large species of tyranids,necrons etc...
Ranged weapons sometimes just don't have power to penetrate something and melee weapons excel in that.Chainsword have mono-molecular edged blades,power weapons a field which tears molecular bonds etc....
Orks can take a lot of hits from a lasgun,but not from a chain or power weapon.Tyranid carapace as stated can be hard as any metal so melee helps with it.

Phew, it's nice to get well thought out replies instead of flames.

Commander Endova, I think you summed up a big part of it nicely. Due to orks, tyranids, and khornites it exists. Ignoring it could very well be the thing that defeats you.

*Ahem* melee combat is not impractical, just, as mentioned before, inconvenient.

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/news/83476-us-warfare-experts-inspired-2004-a.html

Under the right circumstances, melee combat is much more effective than ranged combat.

It's just that these days with all these guns floating around, the circumstances don't arise very often.

I like this thread, interesting thoughts. Does anybody notice that its the armies that aren't tough that fight in ranged combat. Guard and tau seem to fight closer to modern warfare.

Mayby the reason Guard and Tau fight from afar is becuase they can counteract the the things you mentioned: Guard seem to be the only ones who use artillery, mayby they do it becuase you can't hide with jamming from them, they just cover the area. Tau seem to have better guns than others despite their lower tech level, and seem to like plasma which is the counter to the reapperance decent armor in war.

Another thing to mention is differences in strength/agility. Guardsmen and Tau aren't the ones big on close combat; Orks, Space Marines, Tyranids and Eldar are all superhumanly dangerous in close combat. In this sense close combat can scale technologically with ranged combat even before the actual close combat weapons are taken into account.

Osyr wrote:I like this thread, interesting thoughts. Does anybody notice that its the armies that aren't tough that fight in ranged combat. Guard and tau seem to fight closer to modern warfare.

Mayby the reason Guard and Tau fight from afar is becuase they can counteract the the things you mentioned: Guard seem to be the only ones who use artillery, mayby they do it becuase you can't hide with jamming from them, they just cover the area. Tau seem to have better guns than others despite their lower tech level, and seem to like plasma which is the counter to the reapperance decent armor in war.

I think a big part if the is the previously mentioned 'squishiness'. the tyranid/ork/eldar (according to xenology)/space marines/daemons are all robust enough to consider a few wounds a good trade-off for getting into close combat.

The Tau and Guard are a lot more like us. Even a flesh wound might put them out of the fight. So they go to great lengths to try and avoid letting their opponent hit them.

@ Lemon: Amazing link, I never would have seen that coming.

But in the defense of the poor Guardsmen, would you wanna bayonet charge something like a Space Marine, or an Ork? For the little people of the grimdark, its very unpractical. Charging something twice your size when all you have is plastic armor and a small knife on the end of your plastic gun makes for very bad parties.

Osyr wrote: Tau seem to have better guns than others despite their lower tech level, and seem to like plasma which is the counter to the reapperance decent armor in war.

Dude what? Tau are one of the most technologically advanced races in 40k. And if you are faced with a mob of orks charging at you are you going to fight them back or stand there and not even try to get some swings in?

Very nice post, TC, although I'll bring up these counter-points:

- The reason melee combat wasn't out-right deprecated when early firearms were introduced is because the latter weapons had the obvious drawbacks of considerable reload durations(even in the hands of experts), and several logistical issues. The innovation did, however, mark the relatively slow and painful(pun intended) demise of several melee-centric tactics and it made plate armor much less popular among infantry :p
- Fast-forwarding several centuries, repeating firearms meant combatants could actually sustain depressingly quick rates of fire, which feth'd over a number of the popular infantry tactics of the day(try executing a bayonet charge when the enemy soldiers can strike several times before truly having to pause)
- Finally, automatic firing mechanisms is what really put the nail in the coffin and subsequently unceremoniously dropped the coffin into the grave, as far as dedicated melee tactics were concerned. Sheer weight of fire meant men were literally ripped apart if they exposed themselves at the wrong time.

I would agree, however, that things like the pain-tolerance of Orks, [everything about] Tyranids(and some other factions), and maybe boarding tactics would still make melee competency a desirable thing to have in your forces.

Ronin-Sage wrote:Very nice post, TC, although I'll bring up these counter-points:

- The reason melee combat wasn't out-right deprecated when early firearms were introduced is because the latter weapons had the obvious drawbacks of considerable reload durations(even in the hands of experts), and several logistical issues. The innovation did, however, mark the relatively slow and painful(pun intended) demise of several melee-centric tactics and it made plate armor much less popular among infantry :p
- Fast-forwarding several centuries, repeating firearms meant combatants could actually sustain depressingly quick rates of fire, which feth'd over a number of the popular infantry tactics of the day(try executing a bayonet charge when the enemy soldiers can strike several times before truly having to pause)
- Finally, automatic firing mechanisms is what really put the nail in the coffin and subsequently unceremoniously dropped the coffin into the grave, as far as dedicated melee tactics were concerned. Sheer weight of fire meant men were literally ripped apart if they exposed themselves at the wrong time.

I would agree, however, that things like the pain-tolerance of Orks, [everything about] Tyranids(and some other factions), and maybe boarding tactics would still make melee competency a desirable thing to have in your forces.

A very well thought out rebuttal.

However, for the purposes of this my post, all of those things fall within the realm of the technology of ranged weaponry being far behind that of armor technology. As offensive technology overcame defensive technology, and defensive technology overcame melee technology, ranged weaponry became the only practical offense.

But I think my point still stands (and you seem to concede this) that Orks and Tyranids have turned the tables. To that list I would add Space Marines, Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, and anyone else wearing power armor or using shields. Conversly close combat weapons seem to have outstripped the majority of ranged weapons in terms of armor penetration and damage, thus necessitating their return to the battlefield.

While ranged combat may be superior to some forces, minimal close combat training is needed, again for the 'ack they're in my lines!' situation. Ranged weaponry tends to have a minimal practical range, so at least having a knife of some sort in a necessity for all combatants. Don't modern soldiers carry a combat knife, or is that only special forces?

Pretty much every modern army trains their forces in melee combat to a degree, and the combat knife is still standard-issue in many armies, to my knowledge.

Systema(martial art) is supposed to be pretty popular among special forces nowadays. As far as "the best of the best", they're taught that the weapon isn't the object, but the warrior.

Ahem.

http://badassoftheweek.com/millett.html

copious amounts of profanity.

That's my new favorite website.

Even in the modern world, if there is someone one foot away from you, it's a helluva lot easier to smack him with the butt of your rifle than back up and try to shoot him.

@Commander Endova:

I agree.

iamthecougar wrote:

Osyr wrote: Tau seem to have better guns than others despite their lower tech level, and seem to like plasma which is the counter to the reapperance decent armor in war.

Dude what? Tau are one of the most technologically advanced races in 40k.

Actually, their race is one of the least advanced; Necrons, humans, Orks, and Eldar are all ahead of them, when you look at the most they've achieved. Tyranids too, if their biotechnology counts.

What the Tau do have is a great distribution of their technology. The Adeptus Mechanicus and the assorted Ork Meks control most of their race's technology. The Adeptus Mechanicus is paranoid at the thought of their greatest technology becoming available to laymen, and Ork Meks (especially Big Meks) have little desire to use their knowledge productively (see: Shokk Attack Gun).

Thus while you pretty much have to be a Mek or a Flashgit to have a Kustom Mega Blasta, and you have to be some sort of specialist squad to be heavily equipped with Imperial plasma, basic Tau Firewarriors are given plasma weaponry (of weaker sort) as their standard arms and the equivalent of Carapace Armor. The tradeoff of course, being that Firewarriors are a lot more expensive to equip than Imperial Guardsmen and Ork Boys.

...I'm not even going to comment on that.

Whoops.

I dont quite think distribution of technology equates to one's level of techological advancement.

Eldar and Necrons might have a higher tech level than Tau, but Tau's technology is definately more advanced than Orks and the Imperium.
Imperium technlogy is manhandled by the Ad Mech as you said, but they're also vastly limiting what the Imperium can do with it. Pre-Heresy, anti-grav jetbikes are all around, now they dont have it. Either its cause they lack the STC or arent willing to many anymore, in fear of appearin similar to the Xenos races
Orks technlogy, while effective and crude, are also highly prone to malfunctions and less-than-desireable effects.

The fact that Tau posses firearms that can punch through the advanced armour of other races as well as their distribution of it to their lowliest grunts is a testament to their technological advancement.

If distribution has nothing to do with technological advancement then why is "the fact that Tau posses firearms that can punch through the advanced armour of other races as well as their distribution of it to their lowliest grunts is a testament to their technological advancement"?

Was just saying distribution of technology isnt a sole factor in determining a races' level of technological advancement, which is what you appear to be saying.

Oh, no. I was saying it wasn't a factor at all.

The Tau are great at distributing what technology their race has knowledge of, but what their race has knowledge of isn't at the level of humanity or orkdom.

I mean, what can the Tau do that the Orks can't, but would like to? The Orks have better force field technology, teleportation technology, faster than light travel, and bionics going for them.

Osyr wrote:I like this thread, interesting thoughts. Does anybody notice that its the armies that aren't tough that fight in ranged combat. Guard and tau seem to fight closer to modern warfare.

Mayby the reason Guard and Tau fight from afar is becuase they can counteract the the things you mentioned: Guard seem to be the only ones who use artillery, mayby they do it becuase you can't hide with jamming from them, they just cover the area. Tau seem to have better guns than others despite their lower tech level, and seem to like plasma which is the counter to the reapperance decent armor in war.

It's the same thing today, we aren't TOUGH, we're just squishy humans that's why we invented guns, to destroy the enemy without getting killed ourselves...

Orkeosaurus wrote:Oh, no. I was saying it wasn't a factor at all.

The Tau are great at distributing what technology their race has knowledge of, but what their race has knowledge of isn't at the level of humanity or orkdom.

I mean, what can the Tau do that the Orks can't, but would like to? The Orks have better force field technology, teleportation technology, faster than light travel, and bionics going for them.

Conversely, Tau have anti-grav tanks, battlesuits that can fit a wide array of weaponry, stealthsuit technology, capacity for drone AI that becomes stronger when they're all networked together, a system of FTL travel that doesnt put them at peril in the Warp, and RAILGUNS!

Ronin wrote:Conversely, Tau have anti-grav tanks,

So does the Imperium, but they're not commonly used because anti-grav technology is difficult to maintain.

I haven't heard of the Orks using it, but they design everything for extreme ease of repair/ruggedness, so if the anti-grav rule follows it would make sense for them not to.

battlesuits that can fit a wide array of weaponry,

Nothing special. Exoskeletal armor is common. The ability to fly isn't uncommon. Everyone has a lot of weapons.

stealthsuit technology,

Hmm. Granted. I haven't heard of Orks having anything like this.

On the other hand, it doesn't fit the usual bill for Mek creations. Meks don't want to invent something that no one can see, the louder and flashier the better.

Imperium uses the technology to cloak their Vindicare assassins.

capacity for drone AI that becomes stronger when they're all networked together,

Useless to Orks, as they can easily transplant their own brains into things, or use grots/squigs to control whatever is relevant. Human AI is tech heresy due to the rebellion of the Iron Men.

a system of FTL travel that doesnt put them at peril in the Warp,

Small Warp jumps aren't that dangerous in any case. The lack of ability to jump far when they need to makes their system far inferior to that of the Imperium.

and RAILGUNS!

Those exist now. Nothing more than another type of projectile weapon, really. An Earthshaker does about the same job.

Ronin wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Oh, no. I was saying it wasn't a factor at all.

The Tau are great at distributing what technology their race has knowledge of, but what their race has knowledge of isn't at the level of humanity or orkdom.

I mean, what can the Tau do that the Orks can't, but would like to? The Orks have better force field technology, teleportation technology, faster than light travel, and bionics going for them.

Conversely, Tau have anti-grav tanks, battlesuits that can fit a wide array of weaponry, stealthsuit technology, capacity for drone AI that becomes stronger when they're all networked together, a system of FTL travel that doesnt put them at peril in the Warp, and RAILGUNS!

I've got to go with Orkasaurus, they just distribute their tech better. Orks and humans can do all of those things, and usually better. Anti-grav is rare, but exists, there is fluff about stealthsuit style tech, but the mech doesn't like to share it, true AI exists (used in land raiders for instance), but is largely largely taboo.

The Tau FTL system is short range and limited (Tau cannot travel the whole galaxy. The only reason they have an empire is because they were lucky enough to evolve in a very dense sector of space) while the orks and humans can traverse the entire galaxy fairly quickly. And shokk attack guns and matter conversion beams (as well as some fluff stuff that is, again, not widely available) answer rail guns quite nicely.

Like Orkeosaurus said, the individual Tau is equipped with more advanced technology than the average human or ork, but that is more of a matter of culture and military doctrine than technological capability.

Ok, back on topic.

Humans have always used missile weapons except for a very few cases in which the pure melee guys came a cropper when they faced someone with decent missile capability.

E.g. Athenian peltasts vs Spartan Hoplites at Battle of Sphacteris 425BC.

Crusader knights vs Turks and Mongols, various battles.

In both these historical cases, the defeated melee-only armies reorganized themselves to include missile troops similar to their enemies’.

The reason why mediaeval knights easily crushed peasants is because they were supported by most of the economic output of society in arming and training for war, then were put against a bunch of plebby peasants.

That’s not to say that melee weapons ever became obsolete in mediaeval times. It was not until gunpowder weapons became able to defeat any conceivable plate armour that melee started to vanish from the battlefield. Which is the point the OP is making, and the idea of invincible armour would indeed make missile weapons disappear.

I have a problem with the idea of the invincible armour making melee mandatory for various reasons.

1. No armour is ever invincible because of the need for joints to allow the wearer to move.
2. Concussion would still disable the occupant without needing to penetrate.
3. An energy shield type of armour suffers from issue 2 and also needs some kind of way to absorb and ‘sink’ the energy of weapons hitting it.
4. Mechanically operated weapons do not rely on muscle strength so they are always capable of discharging greater force onto the target than weapons swung by hand. Even if you have power armour, you could use the same resources to build a better rifle which gives the advantage of range.
5. I don’t see why a hand swung weapon can be coated in ‘Unobtainium’ which penetrates the invincible armour, and bullets can’t be. For example, chainswords might have a monofilament coated blade. Isn’t that what Eldar shuriken guns fire?
6. 40K has various examples of light missile weapons which can easily penetrate any reasonable thickness of armour -- meltagun, meltabomb and EMP grenade.

Despite all the above, the concept of melee is still important in terms of willingness for troops to close with the enemy.

Most warfare is not about destroying the enemy, it is about destroying his morale. If your troops are better at closing with the enemy, or holding their ground against an attack, that is a matter of morale and it is the secret to winning. The use of melee weapons is not necessary in such an attack. The reason why modern soldiers still carry and train with bayonets is to give them the aggressive spirit to carry out such attacks, though most of the fighting will actually be done with bullets and grenades at close range, rather than bayonets.

Melee still occurs in rare cases such as trench warfare.

Personally, if I'm some uber life form with invulnerable armor and uber senses, I'd snipe my opponent at maximum range before they can spot me rather than trying to beat demo charges by slicing them.

40k would be totally different people start shooting battlecannon shots or masses of melta into a melee. It is plain absurd for super elites with armor that is invulnerable at range to get in so close so they can get rapid fired by plasma and melted by walls of flamer shots.

If I have terminator armor and have to kill some guardsman, I'd take a longlas....as I can kill guardsman all day and laugh at the ineffectual counter fire from anything smaller than a easily neutralized lascannon battery. No point walking into demo charge range....

----------
If armor is truly immune to ranged weapons, the logical strategy is to stay as far as possible to use the immunity!

Knights on horses charge because their armor (or more importantly, their horses) is not immune to bows but is highly resistant to melee weapons, and the bows lacks sufficient rate of fire (some of the time) to stop them from closing. The close range tactics of knights is not due to the ineffectiveness of range weapons, but even worst effectiveness of melee weapons against an armored knight that is taking proactive action parrying and attacking. Of course, when melee weapons caught up with the armor in mass disciplined pike formations, the age of the knight is dead since they have no immunity zone any more and can only fight in attrition.

If any one is suppose to charge, it ought be guardsman carrying short ranged but powerful weapons like demo charges that is necessary to toast a marine since they can't exactly fire lascannons from the shoulder and static weapons have many limits and is vulnerable to artillery and "tactics". However they have lemans so they don't really need to do that either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orks and Nids: since anything they have touched is inevitable infested and needs to be burned completely, the logical way to deal with them is throw deathstrikes at them until they go away, and that is only when you can't lance strike the thing....

Nuclear weapons are infinitely lower tech and replaceable than a spacemarine, considering how we can build masses of them with our tech base that can't even build a lasgun equivalent. Considering the absurd energies warships use, high energy sources are in no way scarce to the waring races.

----
And if you really need to deal with charging loons, the better idea is to just crush them under the treads of your tank. Bipedal movement makes it unlikely they they can evade a tank ramming down them at 40+mph. We all know what happens when the silly dude tries to use a sword against an APC (even if the sword is a power sword) let alone one with multiple flamers shooting out of it.