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I finished Fires of War again, and was struck by the whiney tone used by Nihilan when he tells Tsu'gan why he rebelled.
"...Kadai killed him," Nihilan continued. "He forced us to seek solace in the Eye..."

Chaos seems to be the ultimate way of "getting your own back." Spurned by your commander/friend/lover/father? Flee to Chaos. Is your duty too hard? Flee to Chaos. Don't like humans? Flee to Chaos.

OK, so Chaos is supposed to be able to grant you your every wish. But why is it that most people turn to it for stupid, immature reasons? From the time of Horus, people have turned to Chaos for the slightest of slights, and many have turned just because they felt used, whether they were or not.
Some notables...

Horus: So, he was pretty sure the Emperor was going to ditch him. But why did he finally turn? Because civilians (shudder) were starting to get involved with the Crusade, and he didn't want to get left out. Never mind that the whole point of the Crusade was to SAVE AND PROTECT HUMANITY. But Horus decided that he, an obviously superior human being in every way, should rule over the masses. Self-sacrificing? Nope, just really pathetic.

Huron Blackheart: "I'm big and powerful! So, I should get to do whatever I want! Mwahahahahah! (Procedes to slaughter civilians, ect.)"

Nihilan: Nihilan wanted eternal life...OK, that's understandable. But he also wanted to rule over common humans, and, again, get to do whatever he wanted. And when he was punished for it, he tried to kill his punishers. And when that plan backfired, he blamed EVERYBODY ELSE for the death of his captain. How mature and Space Marine-y of him. NOT.

So Chaos just seems to be the power that all whiners, shirkers, and arrogant people are drawn to. Anybody else feel this way, or would anybody like to tear holes in my argument?

Chaos is essentially a manifestation of unrestrained emotion ie, emotion without reason or guidance to it.

So yes. Chaos could be described as the big mean kid on the block making all the nice races miserable by stealing their lunch money.

I don't think Horus was as immature as you think. Think about it, Horus was essentially stepping into the shoes of the Emperor of Mankind, the greatest being in mankind. Horus couldn't take the pressure. He allowed his fear to take over him, and he became sullen and secluded. He felt that he was truly alone, that no one would help him. The Gods used this to their advantage, hence why Horus fell to Chaos. He didn't do it because civilians were getting into it, he gave into the pressure.

Huron Blackheart fell because as with all Tyrants, he is obsessed with power. Chaos offers an easy way to power, so which tyrant wouldn't give himself over?

Chaos isn't immature. Chaos is probably more mature than anything. Chaos finds the weaknesses of Mankind, those we were arrogant enough to ignore, and turns them against us.

Cryonicleech wrote:I don't think Horus was as immature as you think. Think about it, Horus was essentially stepping into the shoes of the Emperor of Mankind, the greatest being in mankind. Horus couldn't take the pressure. He allowed his fear to take over him, and he became sullen and secluded. He felt that he was truly alone, that no one would help him. The Gods used this to their advantage, hence why Horus fell to Chaos. He didn't do it because civilians were getting into it, he gave into the pressure.

Huron Blackheart fell because as with all Tyrants, he is obsessed with power. Chaos offers an easy way to power, so which tyrant wouldn't give himself over?

Chaos isn't immature. Chaos is probably more mature than anything. Chaos finds the weaknesses of Mankind, those we were arrogant enough to ignore, and turns them against us.

OK, so Chaos itself isn't immature. But I still think most of the people that turn to it are.
Horus didn't NEED to step into the shoes of the Emperor, and all the problems that came with them. He could have trusted his lord and father to make the right choices, and he could have remembered that his purpose was to protect humanity, not enslave it. Horus and Huron were arrogant and powerhungry, and I think that that's pretty immature.

Grotzooka wrote:OK, so Chaos itself isn't immature. But I still think most of the people that turn to it are.

In case you didn't notice, that is why Chaos has so many followers

You forget about the fact that Horus had the Word Bearers help turn him. The most zealous and fanatical group of marines that just had gotten stabbed in the back by the Emprah saying they were wrong to worship him... Hmm, anyone else thinks this sounds like, I dunno, THE IMPERIUM?!

Avoiding the point this brings up that the Emprah would hate the Imperium, Horus barely stood a chance of blocking out his emotion. Kor Phaeron was one hell of a guy to seep into your mind, and in Horus's weakened state, he was screwed. So yes, while Chaos is a bunch of emos bleeding their emotions into a vat of a dimension, it is also the biggest help in achieving your goals... Sounds tempting to me~!

Bleah. The Word Bearers were the most pathetic of the lot.
"Hey, lets disobey the Emperor!"
"Hey! Stop disobeying me!"
"Waaah! Now, let's blame the Emperor for all our troubles and not accept that we were in the wrong this time!"

A few Legions had legitimate grivances with the Emperor. Not Horus, not the Bearers.

Grotzooka wrote:Bleah. The Word Bearers were the most pathetic of the lot.
"Hey, lets disobey the Emperor!"
"Hey! Stop disobeying me!"
"Waaah! Now, let's blame the Emperor for all our troubles and not accept that we were in the wrong this time!"

A few Legions had legitimate grivances with the Emperor. Not Horus, not the Bearers.

The only one that comes to mind are the World Eaters and perhaps the Iron Warriors.

I've always considered it self evident that Chaos was the vices of sentience taken to the extreme. I certainly agree with the statement. Villains turn to Chaos, heroes don't.

It's basically just a "bad" flag. I mean, Huron would be a villain even if there was no Chaos, Abaddon, Kharne...Chaos just exaggerates them into monsters. I think the fluff supports the notion that, Gaunts Ghost style, Chaos only enchances what's already there. Those who "fall" to Chaos are already monsters, it just shows on the outside now.

Despite all the jokes, Horus did not fall to Chaos because he was lonely for daddy. The Emperor's behavior was objectively erratic. For example, He created twenty clones of Himself (or aspects of Himself, whatever) to help Him subjugate and rule the galaxy BUT then mysteriously disappears from the front of His Great Crusade and begins to rule the Imperium through human functionaries that are not even Astartes much less Primarchs? What was the point of making us perfect, Horus sincerely asked, if you make us beholden to lesser men? Could it be that the Primarchs were not ends in and of themselves but merely instruments in some megalomanical quest for self-aggrandizement? Thanks to the Word Bearers and the Chaos "gods", Horus came to exactly that conclusion: that the Emperor did not believe in His own ideals and was secretly undermining the goals of the Great Crusade in order to set Himself up as a god. Unlike the Word Bearers, Horus did not embrace the Chaos gods in a religious sense--he embraced them as a source of power to supplement his own will. He became, in the truest sense, a champion of Chaos Undivided whereas the Word Bearers are worshipers of the principle of Chaos manifest in the Chaos gods and other Legions, like the Death Guard or the Emperor's Children, became devotees of a particular god but show no interest in other ones. The Word Bearers needed something to worship. That is their nature. When the Emperor refused Himself this honor, they simply began worshiping what they discovered to be "true" gods. Doesn't sound too immature to me.

Surely the thread should read 'the immaturity of chaos FOLLOWERS'

and even then immaturity is a bit of a weak word (grand understatement)
would you call hitler immature?

people fall to chaos because humanity is flawed
chaos brings those flaws to the forefront and preys on them.

@ Manchu

'What was the point of making us perfect, Horus sincerely asked, if you make us beholden to lesser men?'

2 of horuses flaws:
thinks hes perfect
thinks he is above others

although it could be argued that the legions were a means to an end.

Of all the things I would think of to call Chaos followers immature never once crossed my mind.

MOMUS wrote:2 of horuses flaws:
thinks hes perfect
thinks he is above others

Well, given that he was a genetically modified copy of the Emperor of all humanity and chosen by said Emperor to be the chief of all his brothers and the leader of the entire Imperial army was he really that off base in that belief?

Tyyr wrote:

MOMUS wrote:2 of horuses flaws:
thinks hes perfect
thinks he is above others

Well, given that he was a genetically modified copy of the Emperor of all humanity and chosen by said Emperor to be the chief of all his brothers and the leader of the entire Imperial army was he really that off base in that belief?

I think so. First, nobody is perfect, duh. And second, as has already been stated, Horus and his kind were made to guard humans from the creepy things from beyond the stars. So, Horus was Warmaster. So what? His job discription never changed.

But, you are right that the Emperor is being very obtuse. Things might have turned out differently if he'd told Horus what he was doing back on Terra, and assured him that the civilians were not going to take all his power away from him. But then again, how many times has one of your parents responded "It's none of your business" to a question of yours?

I agree with a lot of things on this thread, also it's not immaturity, megalomania surely? But chaos provides methods of being, bigger, better and more powerful, admittedly to their own ends but at least you get to be that powerful for a time....

Since humanity is flawed the chaos takes the advantage and whispers those who have weak will or too those who want more power,but in the end they will be tortured for eternity in the warp.

It was barely Horuses fault that he got tainted IMHO. When you look at it, he had Daemons (who he wasn't aware of) constant testing his mind, and if fluff holds, the primarchs (flung from Earth by Chaos) might have been tainted BEFORE becoming their full adult selves.

And like other have said, getting wounded by a daemon weapon then being taken to a chaos temple and being all sorcerered by Kor or Erebus (I forget which?) and THEIR chaos sorcerers... Also having Abbadon very willing to turn too and the Mournival (barring Horus Aximand *who still turns* and Lokan *who dies*) being in "support" and practically overseeing the ritual didn't help AT ALL.

Horus also probably had personality flaws like Angron and Lion El'Jonson and Night Haunter and Lorgar and Fulgrum... and pretty much all the Primarchs that turned except for Magnus (who was the only one to really have a reason to turn to Chaos).

I mean damn, Horus even says that the all the Primarchs could be turned except for Magnus and Gulliman.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:You forget about the fact that Horus had the Word Bearers help turn him. The most zealous and fanatical group of marines that just had gotten stabbed in the back by the Emprah saying they were wrong to worship him... Hmm, anyone else thinks this sounds like, I dunno, THE IMPERIUM?!

But this Imperium isn't even anything close to the Almighty Emperor's vision. He imagined an industrius empire where science would be use for the good of humanity, not feared by some tech-geeks who just discovered religon and the "omnisiah." He wanted a galaxy where humanity would be gathered into a single goal. He wanted a galaxy where aliens would never be able to harm humanity, where there were no massive DICK-tators.Basically, Emperor says: WTF you guys doin' to my perfect plan for humanity!?

I'd be worth GW partially bringing back the Emperor just to see the aftershocks of that. Well, on the one hand the Imperium would grow more powerful by having a powerful uniting leadership again. On the other, they'd have a myriad of social upheaval, and no primachs to help with the heavy lifting (if the Emperor ever attempted something vaguely like that again, it would be one at a time, never taking eyes off them, raising them carefully from the beginning and probably having some sort of failsafe kill switch).