Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can someone make an argument of why we need sportsmanship at a tournament?

I have now played in many tournaments without sportsmanship and I have not had a problem with any of my opponents yet. From the ‘Ard Boyz, to the Wild West Shootout to other tournaments, I have had nothing but good games. From what I read about the Valentine’s GT they did not have any problems with anyone either.

Over in the UK they have survived without sportsmanship for many years so my question is why have it?

I know that there are rare cases of TFG out there and this is meant to stop them from being jerks, but my argument is that it has the opposite effect. Since your opponent has so much power over you because they control so much of your soft scores, a lot of people are less likely to call out TFG because they fear that there sportsmanship score will get tanked. So they do not want to question rules, do not want to call out their opponent for inaccurate moving, premeasuring, etc. The UK system works well here by just giving TFG a yellow card as a warning, and a red card and an ejection.

So why do we need sportsmanship when it can be manipulated to chipmunk people (deliberately tanking soft scores to give yourself or friends and advantage), Then on the other hand you have people that always give maximum scores so why have it if they always score the same and it punishes those people who do not play them?

In my experience as a former American, European players tend to more mature and less socially awkward and so they are able to do without sportsmanship.

Nope, there isn't one.

I do not get why you would ever put a score in a tournament just to insure people played by the RULES.

While I agree that they have no place in tournaments I think I know where they come from.

Let's face it, society is telling everyone that no one is ever a loser and that just trying is good enough. This mentality has trickled over into wargaming it seems. If people get a high score for comp or sportsmanship then they wont feel so bad for loosing in the game.

People loose

People Fail

People are not good at everything

Get over it world

I agree. Sports scores cause more problems than they solve in my experience. It's an unfortunate reality.

Yup. Sports scores are generally just another way to chipmunk people. The problem with them is you don't have to justify your score. I could be perfectly reasonable with a guy, but he decides that he's ticked at me because I keep correcting his usage of 4th Edition rules, so he smacks me on sportsmanship. So for every rules dispute, I have to ask myself, "Is it worth running the risk of getting my sports score tanked if I say something to this guy?"

I actually like the idea of rewarding the person who was the most fun to play against. A tournament that I think did it really well had each player rank their opponents on who they would most like to play again. They then coupled these rankings with having the TO and some other judges walk around and also rank players on their sportsmanship.

It's easy Allan. Arseholes need to be kept in check. They do exist and play 40k. Soft scores seem to repulse them.

G

I have to agree, sometimes people need special rules in place to keep them in check. I wouldn't want someone arguing with me all the time on rules. These type of people tend to be the ones that are really competitive... well guess what if they know it will effect their score/standing in a tournament they will keep in line.

I'm not saying that either one of the players can be right/wrong on a rule. But if every rule they bring up only benefits them and/or is wrong that is when I start to think it effects their sportsmanship score.'

But that is the view of a casual gamer who enjoys the hobby aspects more than the playing part.

They repulse them? Didn't the guy who won the first major tournament this year get caught cheating on tape?

Of course no one called him on it for fear that he would tank their scores. So instead they just tried to beat him despite it.

Is that really a good idea?


For all this talk about jerks, I don't think I have ever met one that bad at a tournament. I'm sure there are a few out there, but is it really worth implementing something that effects everyone negatively to stop 1-2 individuals from having an unfun game?


(btw, competitive people don't argue rules if they know their wrong. Jerks might, but competitive people play by the rules, otherwise they aren't truly competitive)

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's easy Allan. Arseholes need to be kept in check. They do exist and play 40k. Soft scores seem to repulse them.

G

They exist, but they are too few and far between to justify having this crazy scoring system that does not really keep them in check.

Again my argument is if you have arseholes at a tournament, they are going to be the ones that will tank your sportsmanship score just because they lost, and it keeps others from calling them out for fear of getting a bad sportsmanship score from them.

You have arseholes at tournaments with a sports score like at the Big Waaagh last year. If you have one at your tournament, just kick them out. At the last ‘Ard Boyz, Mikhaila had a problem with TFG at Showcase Comics and he was thrown out. That is how you need to treat them, not by having them ruin the tournament for 5 people and then giving them a low sportsmanship score.

Do you think that a sportsmanship score is the only thing in the way from someone acting like an arsehole at a tournament? That if you remove sportsmanship scores people would act differently?

Blackmoor wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's easy Allan. Arseholes need to be kept in check. They do exist and play 40k. Soft scores seem to repulse them.

G

They exist, but they are too few and far between to justify having this crazy scoring system that does not really keep them in check.

Again my argument is if you have arseholes at a tournament, they are going to be the ones that will tank your sportsmanship score just because they lost, and it keeps others from calling them out for fear of getting a bad sportsmanship score from them.

You have arseholes at tournaments with a sports score like at the Big Waaagh last year. If you have one at your tournament, just kick them out. At the last ‘Ard Boyz, Mikhaila had a problem with TFG at Showcase Comics and he was thrown out. That is how you need to treat them, not by having them ruin the tournament for 5 people and then giving them a low sportsmanship score.

Do you think that a sportsmanship score is the only thing in the way from someone acting like an arsehole at a tournament? That if you remove sportsmanship scores people would act differently?

I disagree. I no longer go to tournaments (after having played and run them) partly because of bad players. Inevitably I'd run into one almost every tournament. Having said that sportsmanship didn't help, because I still ran into them.

First there is no video proof the guy at Conquest cheated. I watched all the tape too.

Allan I have had several opponents at gladiator and ard boyz tell me to my face it's okay to cheat because it's competitive. It's not a case of far and few between... All it takes is one arsehole to ruin your tourney.

G

I think its a good idea to have it, but that depends how you work it out exactly. Here on WHB tournos we have a "positive" sportmanship score, it means people can vote you in as a best opponent they have and yo umight get some points for it (none for one vote, 5 for two, 1- for three and 15 for four). Nobody can deduct your points because they think your sportsmanship is poor. It did keep few arseholes in check as well and everybody enjoyed it (well, apart from one powergamer that complained not getting into first three places because of lack of sportsmanship points and that it happens for the 4th time- well, maybe its about time to stop being an arsehole? . Atmosphere was great, top ranks were taken by people that well deserved it anyway- it basically stopped repetition of WH40k tourno (which doesnt have sportsmanship rules) where muppets with completely broken armies turn up, annoy the gak out of every player, argue the toss out of every little rule (even against the suggestions of a referee!) and win the tourno. with sportsmanship score there would be a big chance that the baboon that got 1st place would loose it to somebody playing very good but also playing in a way that didnt make people annoyed. My few pennies..

So because a couple of people you met are dumb, we need sportsmanship scores?

I don't see them most other competitive environments. Magic gets along just fine without sportsmanship scores.

I suppose though, 40k players are just that big of jerks that they need some incentive to play nice.

Here's an idea. Take away sports scores. If anyone gets caught cheating, they get kicked out of said tournament and are not allowed back in any future events.

And no one has addressed how to stop said jerks from tanking your sports score.

cerealkiller195 wrote:I have to agree, sometimes people need special rules in place to keep them in check. I wouldn't want someone arguing with me all the time on rules. These type of people tend to be the ones that are really competitive... well guess what if they know it will effect their score/standing in a tournament they will keep in line.

I'm not saying that either one of the players can be right/wrong on a rule. But if every rule they bring up only benefits them and/or is wrong that is when I start to think it effects their sportsmanship score.'

But that is the view of a casual gamer who enjoys the hobby aspects more than the playing part.

To keep people who know the rules in line? Not to sound rude but it sounds like you are one of the types of people that are able to exploit a sportmanship score in the first place. I could be misunderstanding your next to last thought, but I think I understand the first part of what you are saying.

"I play for fun so I don't always follow all the rules. If my opponent is only playing to win and I dont think he cares about the hobby aspect, I'll tank his sportsmanship score for correcting me on every little thing I do wrong."

If one doesnt have a firm grasp of the rules what are they doing entering a tournament full of people who do?

That's why there's a difference between a casual game and a tournament game. In a tournament, no matter what I'm playing, I'm abiding by every rule and expect my opponent to do the same.

I am not a gracious loser at tournaments.

I take challenging lists that are not WAAC by any strech since I feel my opponents will have more fun against these lists. I have the same assumption they do the same and that is why I like COMP... for me a tournament doesnt consist of seeing whose lash oblits can beat the others.

Sportsmanship on the other hand...

Sportsmanship scores are there for rewarding a player for smiling while having a "1" fest, except for leadership rolls which miraculously turn to "6" fests. I get pissed all the time when my terminators die to bolter sprinkles and dont kill a thing...this may effect my oppoents fun. I dont berate him or curse or anything else its just that I dont enjoy the game. If he slaughters me becasue of this I get high scores? Thats rediculous I should in reality get docked on my soft scores too.

Graciousness does not equal good sportsmanship. Rule debates dont equal bad sportsmanship. This should be the rule of thumb. The gap is to figure how to standardize this. You cant...so then how do you mitigate it? A list?

Rules debates: 1pt ea
Eye rolls: 1pt ea
Sighs: 1pt ea
Body blows: 5 pts ea
Head shots: 10pts ea
Curses underbreath: 3pts ea
Curses in foreign language: -5 pts ea up to max -15
Curses a loud: 5pts ea


etc. LOL

Timmah wrote:So because a couple of people you met are dumb, we need sportsmanship scores?

60% of the laws made in the past 20 years have been made because of stupid people or people think they can cheat others, and most of the time it ends up punishing those who werent abusing the system

Timmah wrote:
And no one has addressed how to stop said jerks from tanking your sports score.

When ever someone scores a low sportsmanship in a game I talk to both players seperately and ask if there were any issues in the game. If the player can not give a valid reason on why they tanked someones score, I penalize them. I also average out the tanked players other scores and replace that with the lower score. This is clear at the start of the tournament so my players need to know if they are going to give a low score they better have a reason for it.

There's a need for sportsmanship, in all honesty. Too many jerks out there. But I don't think it needs to be anything more than a bonus (or penalty) than a huge portion of the score. +/-5 points with zero being an average game. There should be an explanation for anything other than zero and it should be reviewed by the judge and, at their discretion, adjusted. There should be good reasons why you give bonus/penalty points; otherwise, the judge reverts to zero. If you're a great guy, loan the guy your dice, know the rules, play quickly, etc., then maybe you deserve a couple extra points. If you're a slow player, complainer, don't show dice rolls, etc., then you deserve a negative point or two.

jbunny wrote:

Timmah wrote:
And no one has addressed how to stop said jerks from tanking your sports score.

When ever someone scores a low sportsmanship in a game I talk to both players seperately and ask if there were any issues in the game. If the player can not give a valid reason on why they tanked someones score, I penalize them. I also average out the tanked players other scores and replace that with the lower score. This is clear at the start of the tournament so my players need to know if they are going to give a low score they better have a reason for it.

This cannot realistically be done at a 50+ person tournament though. Also whats to stop one of them from lying?


Also, we have laws in place to keep people from being dumb. Its called the rules. We don't need an extra set.

Timmah wrote:So because a couple of people you met are dumb, we need sportsmanship scores?

I don't see them most other competitive environments. Magic gets along just fine without sportsmanship scores.

I suppose though, 40k players are just that big of jerks that they need some incentive to play nice.

Here's an idea. Take away sports scores. If anyone gets caught cheating, they get kicked out of said tournament and are not allowed back in any future events.

And no one has addressed how to stop said jerks from tanking your sports score.

I've seen Magic tournaments. I wouldn't have been caught dead playing one of those... ever.

EDIT:When younger the Boy would play Yu Gi Yo tournaments. Wo. There was one match where a teenager started threatening the Boy, not realizing I was wandering about the place. That didn't turn out well for him.

Timmah wrote:

jbunny wrote:

Timmah wrote:
And no one has addressed how to stop said jerks from tanking your sports score.

When ever someone scores a low sportsmanship in a game I talk to both players seperately and ask if there were any issues in the game. If the player can not give a valid reason on why they tanked someones score, I penalize them. I also average out the tanked players other scores and replace that with the lower score. This is clear at the start of the tournament so my players need to know if they are going to give a low score they better have a reason for it.

This cannot realistically be done at a 50+ person tournament though. Also whats to stop one of them from lying?


Also, we have laws in place to keep people from being dumb. Its called the rules. We don't need an extra set.

I will agree that in larger events it would be difficult, but with larger events you have more judges so it is not just one person trying to handle everything. Also I would like to point out that in the several years i have been running events it only ever happened once. And the person that did it tanked everyones scores.

Timmah wrote:Nope, there isn't one.

I do not get why you would ever put a score in a tournament just to insure people played by the RULES.

How to play BY THE RULES - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/278461.page

Good sportsmen BEND these rules to play the game properly.

@OP

You don't NEED a sportsmanship score. You also don't NEED a painting score. Or a 'Best Themed Army' score. The reason you have them is that many people take different things from the game, and so you include multiple prizes to recognise that. I would much rather have a fun game against a great sportsman, but lose, than have a dull game against a rules lawyer and win.

Because of this, I think the guy that's the most fun to play, or themed his army most imaginatively, deserves a prize just as much as the guy who won all the games. Why? Because THAT's what I like most about the hobby, and what I consider most important. YMMV, but that's the point...

Where I differ from most tournaments is the belief that there should be no overall score. Give prizes for all the different areas of the hobby, and acknowledge people's different prefernces, but don't let the battle points affect the painting scores, or the army theme affect the battle points. That annoys all the people who only care about their aspect of the game...!

Blackmoor wrote:Can someone make an argument of why we need sportsmanship at a tournament?

I want a way to reward a player who really is fun to play against. There are people out there who can thrash me black and blue, and make me enjoy the experience. As they are definitely improving my tournament experience, I, as a player, want the score to reflect that in some way.

Janthkin wrote:
I want a way to reward a player who really is fun to play against. There are people out there who can thrash me black and blue, and make me enjoy the experience. As they are definitely improving my tournament experience, I, as a player, want the score to reflect that in some way.

Buy them a beer afterwards. No need for scoring whether or not someone can behave like an adult.

Frazzled wrote:

I've seen Magic tournaments. I wouldn't have been caught dead playing one of those... ever.

Anecdotal evidence with no basis in fact or event a reason for it...
That will convince me...

I played magic for 10ish years. I never had a bad tournament experience despite playing in many. Pros who got caught cheating actually were banned from the game. People new that WoTC meant business and they wouldn't tolerate cheaters. So everyone played fairly (usually).

Frazzled wrote:

EDIT:When younger the Boy would play Yu Gi Yo tournaments. Wo. There was one match where a teenager started threatening the Boy, not realizing I was wandering about the place. That didn't turn out well for him.

So some young kid got out of hand playing a young kids card game. Oh noes! We need sportsmanship scores in a game dominated by 20+ year olds.


Sportsmanship scores are a insult to me personally. They are saying, you can't be trusted to not be a jerk, so we have to give you some incentive not to be.

olympia wrote:

Janthkin wrote:
I want a way to reward a player who really is fun to play against. There are people out there who can thrash me black and blue, and make me enjoy the experience. As they are definitely improving my tournament experience, I, as a player, want the score to reflect that in some way.

Buy them a beer afterwards. No need for scoring whether or not someone can behave like an adult.

If all adults could play like that, we wouldn't need sportsmanship. But very, VERY few do.

People who can enjoy winning, while making you enjoy losing, are rare. People who let you enjoy winning, while appearing to enjoy losing, are even rarer. "Sportsmanship" scores, as used in Warhammer tournaments, are simply reflections on the basic question of "did I enjoy this game?" As a tournament, to me, is about enjoying playing with my expensive toy soldiers, then I believe that the tournament scoring system should reflect the basic premise of rewarding optimal fun.

Contrariwise, if you (the generic "you") lack the social graces possessed by the average sponge, I don't especially care if you are the the second coming of Genghis Khan - if people don't enjoy playing against you, then I don't believe that you deserve to win best overall. But if everyone behaves "like an adult," then in an honestly-scored situation, this shouldn't be a huge issue, right?

The underlying question is: how do you keep people from chipmunking?

Timmah wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

I've seen Magic tournaments. I wouldn't have been caught dead playing one of those... ever.

Anecdotal evidence with no basis in fact or event a reason for it...
That will convince me...

I played magic for 10ish years. I never had a bad tournament experience despite playing in many.


.

And this is anecdotal as well. You are taking your personal experiences and applying them to the gaming community as a whole.

Like I said in the other thread, it would be interesting to see a series of U.S. tourneys adopt the yellow/red card system. I think you'd need to have several tourneys over a period of time to really test it. Not every tourney has epic-level TFG. And it's also possible players would be on their best behavior for a while just because they're used to having their opponents grade sportsmanship.

Yeah like any TO would ever throw someone out. We all know they dont have the balls.

G