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First of all, I'm going to start with the army lists.




HIVE FLEET PANDORA
Hive Tyrant - 2x TL-Devourers, Hive Commander
1x Tyrant Guard
Hive Tyrant - 2x TL-Devourers, Hive Commander
1x Tyrant Guard

3x Hive Guards
3x Hive Guards
3x Zoanthropes - Mycetic Spore

Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught
10x Termagants
10x Termagants

Trygon - Adrenal Glands
Trygon - Adrenal Glands
Trygon

Total - 2000





DAEMONHUNTERS
Grey Knight Grandmaster - Icon of the Just, Incinerator, Psychic Hood
4 Grey Knight Terminator retinue - 1x Incinerator
Captain-Brother Stern
4 Grey Knight Terminator retinue - 1x Incinerator

Inquisitor - Bolt pistol + Close combat weapon, Emperor's Tarot, Incinerator

5x Inquisitorial Storm Troopers - 2x Meltas (rides in chimera)
5x Inquisitorial Storm Troopers - 2x Meltas (rides in chimera)
Platoon Command Squad - 4x Flamers (in GKLR)
Infantry Squad - Autocannon
Chimera w/Multi-laser + Hvy Flamer
Infantry Squad - Autocannon
Chimera w/Multi-laser + Hvy Flamer

Grey Knight Land Raider - Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers (GKGM)
Grey Knight Land Raider - Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers (Stern)
Grey Knight Land Raider - Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers (PCS + Inquisitor)

Total - 2000


My nids have been unstoppable as of late. Though I'm still new with them, I'm finding that my nid army is fairly tough to beat.

Now everyone says that Daemonhunters aren't a competitive army...that they don't have what it takes to compete against some of the newer codices. Well, I'm going to put that to the test. I look at this battle as more of a test for the Inquisition than for my nids.

However, there is a twist to this battle. This time, I'll be playing Daemonhunters instead and going up against my very own Hive Fleet Pandora as played by my brother. I started off 40K playing DH and so do have some experience with them. My brother has played both against and with the new nids before so he has experience with them as well.

I'm taking a new build of DH. I used to play Grey Knights in LR's. Nowadays, I think they need the help of inducted guards to compete, especially against some of the more competitive lists out there. This is actually my first time using this list. My brother, on the other hand, took my competitive nids list and tweaked it slightly. He dropped one of my tervigons in favor of more tank busting firepower in the form of deepstriking zoans.

I don't see my chances of winning as very high. I'd be satisfied if I can force a draw in this battle. My main advantage? Two S6 I5 HQ's with force weapons that should have his monstrous creatures somewhat concerned. Yes, all I need do is to wound his TMC's just once and then pass my psychic test (probably on 3d6 due to Shadows) and they're history.

The report should be up in a couple of days. In the meantime, how do you think my Daemonhunters will do against the Tyranids?

You should do graet with stormbolters for troops and lascannons for MCs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh. Take GKPA

Pre-game Analysis:

Daemonhunters: Most likely his TMC's will all get cover if he plays it right with the wall of gaunts screen. With 2 hive commanders, he'll probably deepstrike his trygons and zoans, though I wouldn't be surprised if he also didn't. I've got incinerators for his zoans if they deepstrike anywhere near my LR's to try to nuke them.

I've only get 6 TL-lascannons and 2 autocannons. I can't reliably take down his TMC's especially if they've got cover so I'm going to try a different strategy this game. I'm going after his gaunts. If I take them down, he's lost his scoring units in objectives games or easy kill points in annihilation. He'll also lose his cover for his TMC's as well as his anti-assault roadblock. Then my Grandmaster and Stern should be able to charge his TMC's and hopefully force weapon them to death.

I think objectives games will favor him as I'll be too busy fending off his TMC's to go after them. Kill points is a toss-up.


Tyranids: I think he should either start all his units on the table or if he reserves his trygons and zoans, he needs to overload 1 side. His TMC's need to support each other and should not come at me alone - that would be suicide for his monstrous creatures if they were to take on my HQ's alone. His best offense against my LR's are his trygons and zoans. He needs to keep them alive long enough to do so or else he won't be able to stop me from tank shocking him off objectives.


Mission: Seize Ground - 5 objectives
Deployment: Pitched battle
Initiative: Daemonhunters



Map of the battlefield.


Daemonhunter deployment. My chimeras are touching my land raiders in order to get cover from his hive guards. IST's are deployed outside chimera and will get in on turn 1.


Tyranid deployment. He reserves the 3 trygons and zoans.

Tyranids fail to seize and we begin.


DH 1
My IST's get in the chimeras and they shift slightly to fire on the gaunts. The right infantry squad moves forwards. I fire everything at the gaunts and shoot down 7 from right gaunts and 5 from left gaunts.


Tyranids 1

Tervigon spawns 16 gaunts and then goes sterile. Everything advances and everything that doesn't shoot runs. New gaunts move towards his objective and into area terrain. Left hive guards shoot down 4 from my left infantry squad.


DH 2

I don't move at all. I kill off all the gaunts from the original 2 squads. I also shoot down 2 of the left hive guards and put 1W on the last one. I also put 1W on the right hive guards.


Tyranids 2
Despite +2 to reserves due to dual hive commanders (that's how we decided to play it), only 1 trygon (w/furious charge) and the zoans come in.


Trygon drops by the left infantry squad.


Zoans drop on my right flank. I block 2 of the zoans with my psychic hood, but the last Warp Lance still proceeds to wreck my right land raider (with my Grandmaster).


Nids advance and run. The tervigon tries to use Onslaught but I block it.


In shooting, the trygon and mycetic spore each kill 2 from each of the infantry squads. The right hive guards and dakkarant shoot down the Incinerator terminator from the wrecked LR. The lone hive guard from the left squad explodes the left chimera. Luckily none of the IST's die.


DH 3

My Grandmaster goes after the zoans. Even with his incinerator (which ignores their invulnerable save) and my stormbolters, I am only able to inflict 1W on them.


The left LR moves 6" and out disembarks Stern and retinue. Stern's unit and the left infantry squad puts 2W on the trygon with their shooting.


Overview of my turn 3. What I fear the most happens - my middle land raider (with the platoon command squad + inquisitor) immobilizes itself trying to leave terrain. In other shooting, the 2 LR's put 2W on the left dakkarant.


In assault, the Grandmaster and retinue is only able to kill 2 zoans.


Worse yet, Stern whiffs on his attacks/wounds and doesn't insta-kill the trygon. My GKT's, however, causes 3W on the trygon, who in return kill 2 GKT's and put 1W on Stern for a tied combat.


Tyranids 3

Trygon without furious charge arrives here. Uh oh.


And furious trygon comes up over here. The rest of his army advances.

In shooting, the right dakkarant wipes out the right infantry squad. The left trygon shoots down another 2 guardsmen, and 4 hive guards shooting 8 S8 shots fail to do any damage to my last chimera.


In assault, the GKGM + retinue finally kills the last zoanthrope, but not before suffering a wound due to perils (rolled 6,6,1). Stern whiffs once again. The trygon then wipes out the whole squad before finally croaking to one of the grey knight terminator's nemesis force weapons.


To be continued...

Why does it say blast from the past?

Nostalgia reasons. I haven't played my daemonhunters in a while. Also, they're one of the oldest armies who hopefully will see an update soon.

DH 3

My Grandmaster goes after the zoans. Even with his incinerator (which ignores their invulnerable save) and my stormbolters, I am only able to inflict 1W on them.


The left LR moves 6" and out disembarks Stern and retinue. Stern's unit and the left infantry squad puts 2W on the trygon with their shooting.


Overview of my turn 3. What I fear the most happens - my middle land raider (with the platoon command squad + inquisitor) immobilizes itself trying to leave terrain. In other shooting, the 2 LR's put 2W on the left dakkarant.


In assault, the Grandmaster and retinue is only able to kill 2 zoans.


Worse yet, Stern whiffs on his attacks/wounds and doesn't insta-kill the trygon. My GKT's, however, causes 3W on the trygon, who in return kill 2 GKT's and put 1W on Stern for a tied combat.


Tyranids 3

Trygon without furious charge arrives here. Uh oh.


And furious trygon comes up over here. The rest of his army advances.

In shooting, the right dakkarant wipes out the right infantry squad. The left trygon shoots down another 2 guardsmen, and 4 hive guards shooting 8 S8 shots fail to do any damage to my last chimera.


In assault, the GKGM + retinue finally kills the last zoanthrope, but not before suffering a wound due to perils (rolled 6,6,1). Stern whiffs once again. The trygon then wipes out the whole squad before finally croaking to one of the grey knight terminator's nemesis force weapons.


DH 4
That was a very bad turn 3. Instead of wiping out possibly 2 trygons and still having both HQ's alive, I only kill 1 trygon, lose 1 of my HQ units and immobilise my LR. I shift my chimera and move my melta IST's to shoot at his middle trygon and, along with the immobilised LR, put 2W on it. The left LR puts 2W on the left trygon as well.


My GKGM assaults his right dakkarant. He kills 1 GKT but my Grandmaster force weapons his tyrant to death, rolling a 1,2,3 for his psychic test. I also put 1W on his tyrant guard, and he passes all hist No Retreat saves.


Tyranids 4

His trygon closes in for the kill while his tervigon heads for my right objective instead.


Left trygon and tyrant goes after my LR and infantry squad.


In shooting, the left dakkarant wipes out my left infantry. The trygon then assaults my LR. Despite hitting with all 7 attacks, he only manages 1 pen. Unfortunately, that was enough to wreck it.

In other shooting, all 4 hive guards once again fire at my chimera. I then make 4 out of 5 covers and only suffer the loss of my multi-laser.


Middle trygon charges my Grandmaster's unit. Unfortunately, because they were locked in combat, the GKGM isn't able to assault his trygon. His trygon kills both GKT's and put another wound on my GKGM. In return, my grandmaster is only able to attack his tyrant guard and kills it.


DH 5
I have a small chance to get the tie right now. I won't be able to get to his objective with the gaunts. If I can just kill his trygon with my Grandmaster and then contest the objective his tervigon is on, I can pull off the draw...assuming that the game ends on 5 and his other units don't make it to contest my objective. That's a lot of if's.


My chimera goes flat-out and turboboosts a full 12", after which it pops smoke and my IST's disembark (to make sure I'm in contesting range).


My PCS + Inquisitor disembarks and gets ready to flame his tyrant, guard and trygon (all 3 are in flamer range). Then my other squad of IST's get into the LR.

In shooting, my 5 flamers only manage to put 1W on the tyrant guard and doesn't wound his trygon. The immobilised LR then proceeds to finish off his tyrant guard as well as put 1W on his dakkarant (now with only 1W left).

Now for the killing blow - assault between my Grandmaster and the trygon.

I figure that my GKGM should easily be able to kill his trygon, right? I strike 1st, hit and wound on 4's and then kill with a successful LD test. Ok. So I swing. Hit twice. Wound once. I should still kill it. Then I do my psychic test and roll 6,6,1...Perils! I make my 1st invulnerable but fail the re-roll, and because I only have 1 wound left, I'm dead. So the trygon kills my GKGM without even striking him. Ughhh.


Tyranids 5

Tyranids move. Trygon goes to contest my objective.

In shooting, 4 hive guards with 8 S8 shots only manage to stun my chimera. The dakkarant shoots down all but the PCS officer.


Assault is not a pretty picture. Tervigon assaults the IST's and causes them to break and run off the board. Tyrant kills the PCS officer. Lastly, Mr. Trygon wrecks my immobilised LR. And in case if you're curious, yes, the undersides of all my LR's are primed black. A sad sight....


We roll to see if the game continues and the dice gods are merciful this time as they decide to end it.



At the end, his gaunts are claiming his objective.


My chimera is exactly 3" away the objective and contesting his tervigon.


And his trygon is contesting mine.


Victory to Hive Fleet Pandora!!!

Nice report, the vote shows that most people are in the right mindset. When people start saying that an older army can't do it then they won't. Any old army can overcome any newer army if they are controlled by a good player. about 10% of an army's effectivenessis is due to the rules, the other 90% is dependant on the players army list and overall control during the battle. So a canny player can beat any army with any rules edition (within reason, ie. a 1st ed marine army would not really work since rules would be quite different to those presently.)

Imp. Monkey

Post-game Analysis:
Despite almost getting tabled, I didn't feel as if my daemonhunters couldn't compete. As a matter of fact, I felt they had chance to beat the nids if only a couple of dice went my way - Stern whiffing twice against the trygon, my Grandmaster failing to slay the other trygon and suffering perils twice, my land raider immobilising itself, my failing almost every invulnerable save I was forced to make.

Strategy-wise, I think targeting his gaunts was the right choice (though some of you would probably beg to differ). The only thing I might've done differently is to deploy my HQ + Grey Knight terminators outside of the land raiders to stormbolter his gaunts to death. I should've also considered getting them psycannons instead of incinerators and dozer blades for my land raiders. Other than that, not sure what I did wrong, besides fluffing my dice rolls.

As for my brother, he played my army well. I don't really see any mistake on his part, though I admit dropping the zoans and trygons so close to me on turn 2 was very risky. I do think it was better to drop them both on the same side of the table rather than on opposite sides. Also, instead of trying to FNP one of his gaunt squads, he tried to use Onslaught his tyrant but he either failed his psychic test or I blocked it on turn 1.


MVP's
Tyranids:
Trygons - They killed 2 land raiders and both my HQ's and their retinues.

Daemonhunters:
Chimera - Although my Grandmaster killed one of his dakkarants and some zoans, I still consider it a failure on his part for not killing the trygon as well. My chimera, on the other hand, weathered 24 S8 shots and still lived to contest his objective! For that, he gets my vote.

Imperial Monkey wrote:Nice report, the vote shows that most people are in the right mindset. When people start saying that an older army can't do it then they won't. Any old army can overcome any newer army if they are controlled by a good player. about 10% of an army's effectivenessis is due to the rules, the other 90% is dependant on the players army list and overall control during the battle. So a canny player can beat any army with any rules edition (within reason, ie. a 1st ed marine army would not really work since rules would be quite different to those presently.)

Imp. Monkey

Ya I just voted for the nids because a like dem in such, also O NOM NOM NOM

jy2 wrote:In other shooting, all 4 hive guards once again fire at my chimera. I then make 4 out of 5 covers and only suffer the loss of my multi-laser.

I am interested to know what you are getting cover from since there living ammo ignores most cover?

Lyracian wrote:

jy2 wrote:In other shooting, all 4 hive guards once again fire at my chimera. I then make 4 out of 5 covers and only suffer the loss of my multi-laser.

I am interested to know what you are getting cover from since there living ammo ignores most cover?

Sorry! Robin Cruddace has abolished the old Living Ammo rule, everyone gets cover and no more rerolls to hit/wound (whichever one it was)

Lyracian wrote:

jy2 wrote:In other shooting, all 4 hive guards once again fire at my chimera. I then make 4 out of 5 covers and only suffer the loss of my multi-laser.

I am interested to know what you are getting cover from since there living ammo ignores most cover?

My chimera was touching cover (the wrecked LR). Throughout the game, I always had my chimeras kissing the rear of my LR's in order to get cover from his hive guards.

You can't give cover to your Chimera in that way from hive guard. It specifically states in the impaler cannon entry in the Tyranid Codex that units can only get benefit of cover when they are within area terrain that is between the hive guard and their target.

Thus, when your chimeras were "kissing the rear of [your] LRs" they would not have gotten cover. Unless they were wrecked LRs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and it seems like your DH was kinda a weak list with a minimal amount of firepower due to the large amount of points put into the 3 LRs.

Maybe use a list with slightly more firepower/units because DH Grey Knights with their str 6 hits and true grit with storm bolters can do pretty well against MCs.

Tyranid codex, p.47 wrote:
The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard.

My intepretation is this. The land raiders are cover as they are obscuring my chimeras. If my chimera is touching it, then it is touching cover in regards to the hive guard's impaler cannon. Cover is not necessary area terrain. It is anything that obscures view (in the case of vehicles, obscure at least 50% of the vehicle). But if others feel I am playing it incorrectly still, please let me know.

Regarding my list, I was debating on several builds. I normally play pure grey knights but I felt that it was too few bodies. I also considered only 2 LR's and more inducted infantry (and firepower). I finally settled on my 3-LR list because 1) it is still effective on non-melta armies, 2) it provides me with more reliable, non-static AP2 firepower, 3) I can still get the troops I need with inducted guard and 4) LR's are better in objectives-based games than guardsmen in chimeras that will get wrecked by all his hive guards.

that nid army must struggle on objective games against opponents who capitilize on killing the measly 10 gaunts, or by blowing up the tervigon and causing him to explode all the gaunts around him.

Good battle report, sucks that you had such bad luck.

You don't get cover just by touching a terrain piece, especially with vehicles. If you're IN area cover (forests, ruins, etc.) Then its different but just touching a vehicle doesn't give you a save. You actually have to look and see if the vehicle is 50% obscured, unless its in area terrain. Vehicles aren't area terrain. Hope that helps.

Captain_Trips01 wrote: Good battle report, sucks that you had such bad luck.

You don't get cover just by touching a terrain piece, especially with vehicles. If you're IN area cover (forests, ruins, etc.) Then its different but just touching a vehicle doesn't give you a save. You actually have to look and see if the vehicle is 50% obscured, unless its in area terrain. Vehicles aren't area terrain. Hope that helps.

:/..........you should check out the hive guards rules, because thats what they are talking about.

Mafty wrote:that nid army must struggle on objective games against opponents who capitilize on killing the measly 10 gaunts, or by blowing up the tervigon and causing him to explode all the gaunts around him.

Not really. Don't forget the tervigon is a troop choice as well and will have at least 1 turn of churning out more gaunts. Thus, he would have a minimum of 4 scoring units and on average about 6. Also, my brother was basically using my nid army with a small change...I originally had 2 tervigons but he swapped one of the tervigons (and 2 hive guards) for 3 zoans in a spore for more offense.

Also, it's not easy killing a tervigon in cover. The way you're suppose to play it is to put it behind the tyrant for cover. Then he can give himself FNP if necessary. Trust me, other than the most shooty army or Jaws of the World Wolf, it's really hard to take out one of those T6 6W monsters if he knows how to play it. And while I'm trying to take them out, his main offense, the hive tyrants, are getting closer and closer untouched and his hive guards are taking out all my non-LR vehicles....and they all got cover from my shooting. That's why I felt it imperative to take out that gaunt screen. I just got real lucky that his tervigon spawning crapped out on turn 1.

Captain_Trips01 wrote: Good battle report, sucks that you had such bad luck.

You don't get cover just by touching a terrain piece, especially with vehicles. If you're IN area cover (forests, ruins, etc.) Then its different but just touching a vehicle doesn't give you a save. You actually have to look and see if the vehicle is 50% obscured, unless its in area terrain. Vehicles aren't area terrain. Hope that helps.

I kept my chimera more than 50% obscured from his hive guards at all times until the end when I went after the objective. They were also touching my LR's to make sure I get my cover save against their impaler cannons.

So the argument is that the chimeras must be touching the LRs and be obscured by the LRs in order to receive cover?

Now, I'm wondering if GW expected their language to be interpreted that way. This is why they should put examples in their codices in order to spell out all of these things.

As for your interpretation, it makes sense and I would accept it yet that makes me kind of sad that it means annoying things like chimeras and dreadnoughts can still get cover saves from hive guard :(

dragon1092 wrote:So the argument is that the chimeras must be touching the LRs and be obscured by the LRs in order to receive cover?

That's correct. That's the way most people intepret it from a RAW-standpoint.

dragon1092 wrote:
Now, I'm wondering if GW expected their language to be interpreted that way. This is why they should put examples in their codices in order to spell out all of these things.

Yeah, a lot of things in the nid codex could use some clarification. Hopefully a FAQ will be coming soon.

dragon1092 wrote:
As for your interpretation, it makes sense and I would accept it yet that makes me kind of sad that it means annoying things like chimeras and dreadnoughts can still get cover saves from hive guard :(

As it is, already a lot of people are complaining about how good the hive guards are. IMO if their vehicles were to not get any cover saves at all (besides from smoke or wargear options), I have a feeling non-nid players will call it downright broken. Here you have a unit that can hide behind terrain that completely blocks LOS to it (and thus you cannot shoot it directly) and still fire 2 medium-ranged missile launchers at you while ignoring your cover.

As has been stated before, Hive Guard Impaler Cannons do not have "Ignore Cover" special rules, like flamer templates or airburst missiles in a thunderfire cannon.

The rule states targeted models cannot claim cover they are in unless it's between them and hive guard. A vehicle that has less than 50% of its hull visible to the majority of firing models counts as 'obscured' and is in cover for a 4+ save. That being said, while an impaler cannon does not require LOS to fire, It could be argued that if the hive guard cannot see their target, if it is a vehicle it is obscured, and therefore considered to be 'in cover'. As a tyranid player, I would argue that rules against the flavor of a self-guided missile (which is what the impaler cannon fires) because they steer themselves. Walls and area terrain still provide cover if the unit targeted is in near enough proximity to them, but otherwise these things have eyes of their own.

So we wait for the FAQ...