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So, this is my first kick at this after reading as much as I could about this game around the internet. 25 points first, then ways I could grow it up to 50:

Lich Lord Asphyxious +6

Nightwretch 4
Nightwretch 4
Cankerworm 5

Bane Knights 6
Bane Thralls 5

Pistol Wraith 3
Pistol Wraith 3
Machine Wraith 1

The idea is to use those solos to try and shape the battlefield and hopefully force an even larger focus deficit over the course of the game as they try to undo what I have done. If they don't, I can hopefully set up some nice assaults for my units.

Units that I want to add later:
Deathjack 12
Tartarus 4
Bane Thrall Officer and Standard 3
Possibly upgrade to 10 man units

After this, I am out of ideas. So, could anyone please help me with:

1) Is the initial 25 point list a good one? Am I missing something or just not putting the pieces together properly? How would you change it?

2) What other things should I be looking to add to raise it to 50 points?

I really appreciate it!

With two units of banes, you're missing out on not having Tartarus in there. It's worth (IMO) giving up the machine wraith and a pistol wraith for him.

Yep Tar Tar sauce makes banes wreck face.

I don't know if this is common or not but getting the charge off on a warcaster with 16 defense and needing 11's to hit sucks! but dropping that to 9s is much more acceptable imo. Two good hits for me dropped a caster that way.

I found that setting up canker worm to get the charge on jacks then disappear behind some clouds is the best way to deal with jacks in this list. The machine wraith will only get you some distraction in the early turns.

Okay, moving up to 35 points here, my friends told me that is what we will be starting at. I have this core:

Lich Lord Asphyxious +6 (non-epic)

Nightwretch 4
Nightwretch 4
Cankerworm 5
Seether 9

10x Bane Knights 10
Tartarus 4

Pistol Wraith 3
Necrotech 1
Necrotech 1

What I figure is I can cause shinanigans with the rest of the army, and wait to set up a kill with the Knights and Asphyxious' Feat. Simple, but maybe not enough options?

Looks good. Looks flexible with some good heavy hitters.

Non epic Gaspy is "Iron Lich" I like his survivability and he hits as hard or harder than most jacks in CC.

Scarlocks have worked well with him for me, but then again I have only played about 15 games now.

I don't see what the Knights and his feat have to do with each other, assuming you're taking the non-epic version (Iron Lich); gaining 7 focus means nothing for the knights because you can't give them any. Now if you mean epic Asphyxious (Lich Lord) then yes, the Bane Knights will work admirably with him. Assuming they die 1st, that is. Now on the subject of the Nightwretches, their usefulness depends on which version of Gaspy you're taking. For epic, they are indeed more useful than Deathrippers, as he has less spells to channel through arc nodes and so you will want the versatility of having a ranged attack. With pGaspy though I would take Deathrippers, as if you don't pull off the casterkill with his feat and it comes down to the bonechicken to take out the caster, a Deathripper is far more capable of finishing the fight than a Nightwretch, thanks to Sustained Attack. In any case, it should never come down to the chickens and you should never rely on them to do any real damage, other than as an arc node...

On a side note, does anyone else wish Bane Knights had a UA? Since it seems to me that, without the UA, Bane Knights are far more capable than Bane Thralls. Vengeance for extra movement if they take shots on the way in somewhat makes up for the lack of Stealth, they aren't slowed by terrain, can't take Free Strikes, and most importantly of all, they have Reach. Conversely, Bane Thralls have Dark Shroud, which causes them to hit harder, but their lack of Reach means that every one of them has to be up in the enemy's face to get hits in, and they'll typically get there more slowly than the Knights. Those problems still exist even with the UA.

Well I am running the Epic version (Lich Lord, not Iron Lich). Here is my final 35 point list, now I need to think of how to raise it to 50:

eGaspy +6

Nightwretch 4
Nightwretch 4
Seether 9
Cankerworm 5

Bane Knights 10
Tartarus 4

Warwitch Siren 2
Warwitch Siren 2
Necrotech 1

I think for 50 points, I will just add:

Deathjack 12
Necrotech 1
2x Scrap Thrall Teams 2

I would go for more Banes to take advantage of Tartarus and his curse. Thralls have the -2 ARM debuff, so maybe a small unit of those +UA and remove the Necrotechs, Scrap Thralls, and 1 Wretch to pay for them? Then you can combo Curse from Tartarus and Dark Shroud from the Thralls to debuff the enemy.

Looking it over, I really think I want a Withershadow Combine unit in there:

eGaspy 35 + 6

Nightwretch 4
Nightwretch 4
Cankerworm 5
Seether 9
Bane Knights 6
Tartarus 4
Withershadow Combine 5

And the last four points will go to either:
Warwitch Siren 2
Warwitch Siren 2
or
Pistol Wraith 3
Necrotech 1

I'll just buy a few solos and see how things work out. Up to 50 points, my only real priority is getting the Knights to a ten-man sized squad. Pistol Wraiths seem like they could be quite nice to mess up a warjack to get the combine in there doing their thing.

Take the Sirens over a wraith and a tech. They give your Wretches the focus they require for free, have stealth, can shoot off a Venom, have Reach, and though their MAT is average their weapon has Shadow Bind. So if you DO hit, the enemy loses 3 DEF and is locked in place for a turn. (round?) Position them so that enemies that will charge your caster pass through their Reach, and if you hit they're stopped dead. This can save your ass in a pinch. But really, the simple fact that they free up a full cloud's worth of Focus is enough for me to fully endorse them.

My 35 pt list for the Lich Lord is as follows;

Lich Lord Asphyxious
Nightwretch
Nightwretch
The Sauce
10x Bane Knights
10x Bane Thralls
Bane Thrall UA
Withershadow Combine
3x Machine Wraiths

The massive threat of this many Banes, clouds to hide the Knights and Stealth on the Thralls, and the Combine and Wraiths waiting in the wings to mess with any `Jacks that get careless gives you a TON of board control. Keep the bone chickens mid/back, ready to dart forward if your opponent clumps their stuff up so you can Death Knell them for a big reaping of souls with Daemortus.

At 50pt I swap out one Nightwretch for the Cankerworm, and add in Deathjack and Gorman the alchemist. I feel I do not need the second arc node as Deathjack often ends up getting used as my primary node since he gives me two extra focus when using him for my spell casting. I love having him start out forward, move up and cast Death Knell, then Gaspy covering his front arc with a pair of clouds. Few things are more enjoyable than the look on your opponent's face when Deathjack is that close to their lines, but they can't shoot or charge him. The only downside is the order of operations for this means you can't first Daemortus the target of the Death Knell.

I think I can get everything I want into this list with a swap out of Seether for a Reaper. I have read about the interaction between Reaper, a Warwitch Siren and the Combine, and would be very interested to see this play out on the board (I could always just make a Seether with this). 44 points in a 35 point game? Sign me up!

eGaspy 35 +6

Nightwretch 4
Nightwretch 4
Reaper 7
Cankerworm 5

6x Bane Knights 6
Withershadow Combine 5

Tartarus 4
Pistol Wraith 3
Warwitch Siren 2
Necrotech + Scrapthrall 1

For now I am going to start with this base I think. It will give me opportunities to try all the models that catch my eye (other than the more badass Helljacks) and should cost little to change around. Plus I'll just magnetize up the arms on the Reaper and should get a few options for what kind of units I can make.

I'll buy the full 10 Bane Knights so that if I find the min unit is just too small, I can lose the necrotech and pistol wraith to pump it up. Still, I think the opportunity to bring back the combine in his attack (which I imagine will get a lot of fire once people see how good they are at dismantling 'jacks).

*Aside: Does anyone know of a site that actually has tournament lists or reports on it? Despite my skills on the internets, I have yet to find anything useful. I am wondering what the most competitive players out there are running to see if it can help me better evaluate the units and combos before investing a lot into a certain playstyle.

Have you tried the Privateer Press Forums? That is the parent company of WM.

One thing to realize. You will lose, a lot, when you start out. Also. a good list will not win the game for you.
How you use your list is a far more important factor in your victory or loss.

I don't believe I won a game in my first 3 months.
I am just now, a year after getting into Warmachine and 6 months after MkII, getting to where I can work out the proper order of activation without slowing the game way down.

I don't find Pistol Wraiths to be cost effective, nor do I find Reapers to be worth their cost. But others seem to be able to get utility out of them.
I prefer bane thralls over bane knights, just because.

If that were my list, I would drop the Reaper, and pistol Wraith for a Seether, swap Knights for Bane Thralls+UA, Drop the Necrotech, and add a Warwitch.

But that suits my playstyle. Yours may be different enough that you get the use out of the Reaper, and Knights.

Coming from 2500 points of Imperial Guard and Skaven, I am tickled by the fact that for $300 I can have a full army and SEVERAL options to try.

The PP forums are a bust, I'll keep looking.

I don't think it's that bad.
Honestly...there's not too much to talk about because it's no mystery how things 'work'.

One note:

For eGaspy, I think you have one too many jacks and not enough meat for his feat.

-Sanct.

@Sanctjud: Are pDenny and eDenny usually the most competitive lists going around?

eGaspy is probably the most competitive Cryx caster out of the bunch IMO.

Lets look at why, starting with Kill condition.

eGaspy is going to win the game by using his feat, Spectral Legion and going for a caster kill. Incorperal models can move through enemy models, and ignore rough terrain. This means that there is around a 20" kill zone around Asphyxious that your opponent will want to avoid with his caster. If he gets to close, you pop your feat, charge with your 10 feated models, and make weapon master attacks against that caster. Of course, to kill that caster, you're going to want to make sure you 1) hit the target caster, and 2) deal damage to the target caster. Parasite covers point #2, and points #1 and #2 are covered by Tartarus.

Tartarus is a must in any eGaspy list, IMO. Curse essentially raises your bane Thralls and Bane Knights Mat to 8 -- thats actually high enough to hit def 16 (which a lot of casters have as their base Def). Additionally Tartarus has Dark Shroud to lower enemy model's arm by 2 as well, which helps with the killing. Tartarus is so important, you'll find you occasionally kill him yourself! When you have the perfect assassination lined up, if Tartarus is not in the right position, kill him, bring him back with the feat, and there you go -- instant Mat buff and arm debuf.

Of course, talking about killing stuff with banes, well, requires banes. You're going to want at least 10x bane knights with eGaspy so that you can actually pull off the above with Tartarus. In higher point levels, Soul Hunters are going to be a solid kill piece as well, but lets stick to 35 points, shall we?

Since you need dead models to win, you're more or less going to throw those bane knights into the grinder early in the game. Its nice to have some backup when you're just throwing models out there to get killed, so, IMO, a second unit of banes (knights or Thralls, doesn't matter which) is a good idea. Personally, I'd lean toward 10 of each for variety.

Your list is looking something like this now:

Tartarus 4
10x Bane Knights 9
10x Bane Thralls 8

Now, Lets look at everything prior to winning -- Keeping your Caster alive.

Hellbound will help keep eGaspy alive most games, as he can't be targted by charges while its up and it creates a good deal of rough terrain. If that wasn't enough, you have Caustic Mist -- most models can't see through cloud effects, and single wound models sure aren't going to try to move through cloud effects that cause 1 point of damage. Against most casters, you should be able block yourself from getting killed. Oh, and in case that wasn't enough Caustic mist is the best table control spell in the game, IMO, so if you really need to shut down some single wound models from entering an area, just drop the caustic mist in that spot. Instant denial!

Since eGaspy keeps himself alive pretty well, you don't really need to add anything to your list specifically to keep him alive. Your list is still looking like:

Tartarus 4
10x Bane Knights 9
10x Bane Thralls 8

Now, if your opponent isn't kind enough just to walk into your assassination, you're going to need to handle the regular situations -- Killing heavy Armor, Surviving ranged attacks, and dealing with infantry.

Against Heavy Armor you've got parasite, which is quite awesome -- in fact, its awesome enough to warrant a pair of arc nodes. Your selection of Nightwretches is quite agreeable to me. While you won't always cast eAsphyxious's other spells, having the option to arc them is quite handy. The list is now looking like:

Nightwretch 4
Nightwretch 4
Tartarus 4
10x Bane Knights 9
10x Bane Thralls 8

Against infantry and ranged attacks, you've got several solutions already built in, and thats Stealth on the Bane Thralls and the much touted caustic mist. In fact, you'll be using caustic mist so much, I'd even recommend a skarlock to cast some of your other spells (like parasite on something within 14") so it can free up focus on Asphyxious to cast more caustic mist. The free upkeep provided by the Withershadow Combine is also very, very handy for Hellbound and / or Parasite. Personally, at 35 points, I'd go with one or the other, not both. I'm going to recommend the wither shadow personally.

Your list is now up to

Litch Lord Asphyxious (6 jack points)
Nightwretch 4
Nightwretch 4
Tartarus 4
10x Bane Knights 9
10x Bane Thralls 8
Withershadow Combine 5

That leaves you with 7 points left in the list. The reaper idea isn't a bad one and uses up those remaining points. You can drag Jacks in range of the Withershadow who have a decent chance of trashing the jack with Dismantle (and possibly parasite).

The final list would look like this:

Litch Lord Asphyxious (6 jack points)
Nightwretch 4
Nightwretch 4
^Reaper 7
Tartarus 4
10x Bane Knights 9
10x Bane Thralls 8
Withershadow Combine 5

Personally, I'd use the following as a core and play around with it to your heart's content.

Litch Lord Asphyxious (6 jack points)
Nightwretch 4
Nightwretch 4
Tartarus 4
10x Bane Knights 9

That gives you 20 points to shift around in the list and try different things with while also maintaining the core of the list, which is assassination by feated bane knight and tartarus.

I hope that helps!

eGaspy is great for assassination/face wrecker.
eDenny is good at scenarios.

That is as general/simple as I can put it, but it's still a pretty big oversimplification.

Endgame, your post is very informative and well thought out, but you made a single minor error that (assuming it was a thinking error and not a text error) affects the list you came up with. A full unit of Bane Knights is 10 points, not 9. I like to think of them as costing 1 point per model, to help me remember that.

With that said, you certainly helped my personal understanding of how eGaspy works in practice... For example, I didn't think Spectral Legion would work on Tartarus.

I think a eGaspy list runs into Focus starvation.
So a Reaper (that needs at least 2 Focus on the turn it shoots) would drain eGaspy a bit, esp. if he needs his 2 arc nodes to be somewhere, taking another 1 or 2 Focus.

With upkeeping hellbound, that's 6 Foc left, 3 Clouds, he can spare 2 Focus leaving him with 2 Clouds.

Which is why I feel taking Focus saving units is something to consider.

Now, there is always the soul collecting ability of eGaspy to consider.
Grouped up unit + Daemortis's Special ability + Death Knell means lots of focus next turn. Every two additional focus is another cloud, or some more excarnates, more focus to hand out, sure. But it's not to be relied upon. Even without resorting to Death Knell, I feel that the Soul Reaper won't get too much Souls if the opponent knows about it/read about it on the card.

Withershadow Combine (as mentioned before) is a good idea, and they offer some ranged and 'defensive combat', while the free upkeep is the main event. (Even puppet strings is pretty good if you don't want to boost to hit something with Excarnate/DeathKnell/Parasite).

Deathjack/Seether/Snapjaw(Wrongeye) are heavy hitters that don't need too much from eGaspy if you can ever spare the points for them.

Warwitch Siren (seems fluffy too) offer much to the list. Free Focus to run a chicken, able to Venom lighter infantry that the feat would rather not deal with, even able to bind a non-reach jack once in a blue moon.

Kind of thinking this right now:

eAsphyxious 35+6

Nightwretch 4
Nightwretch 4
Reaper 7
Cankerworm 5

10x Bane Knights 10
Tartarus 4

Withershadow Combine 5
Warwitch Siren 2

For 50, I'll definitely add:

Soulhunters 6
Darragh Wrath 4
But am unsure how to spend those last 5 points.

Can I make a Seether using the Combine Dark Construction ability, by the way? He doesn't seem to be a character, but seems great for a focus-starved list.

Yes, you can make a Seether with the Withershadow Combine's Dark Industry ability, however it will not get the free extra Focus each turn. Reason being is that it's Allocated an extra Focus, and Autonomous `Jacks can not be Allocated Focus. If you end Gaspy's move in BtB with it and do not preform any other Action (casting spells is not an action) then you can add it to your Battlegroup and it will start getting that extra Focus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and 10x Bane Knights work better with the Feat because of their Reach.

guess this is the big question: What will work better with his feat at 35 points?

10x Bane Knights 10

or

10x Bane Thralls 8
UA 3

I'd go with the Bane Knights for Reach, IMO if you were choosing between the two.

Also note that the Cankerworm and the Withershadow Combine both use wreck markers. Given that a long game goes to 5 turns (usually you're done in 3 to 4), you'll likely not be able to use both salvage abilities.

Just an FYI.

Well, I can drop the Cankerworm in a Heartbeat, but how to use those 5 points? I'll goof around with different things since it really doesn't matter.

Aduro: I didn't realize the implications of making a jack that way. Still, I think it is worthwhile to try and hook something in and get a bigger list than I should.

I will second the Bane Knights for eGaspy as well.
Threat range is more important as TartarSauce can bring the -2Arm Aura.

In addition... the Bane Knights first because you actually want them to die.

Thralls w/ UA have a habit of living too long...now it's not bad at higher points where you want to hold an objective or something, but the Bane Knights fuel the feat by slamming into the enemy and wreck face, dying on the way....then they get to do it again for a turn feat turn.

Note: beware of cloud ignoring units...medium base is still an issue for Gaspy. Screening with some medium/large based stuff is another layer of protection for Gaspy with respect to range assassination (because Hellbound helps so much against melee assassination).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gorman is nice. Saves eGaspy 2 Foc with the cloud he brings... or adds another one.
In addition, he brings more debuffing come assassination run.

Gorgers/Boarding Party are options to screen Gaspy.
Wrathe can be used just for Gaspy screening and for the 1" move for all the Bane Knights you are likely to use.

Um. Even the Pistol Wraith could be good.
It's able to pop off two shots, maybe get a soul or two...then have eGaspy put a cloud infront of him so that he 'may' get another shot with boosting!

For 4 points (IIRC on the point cost), a pair of warwitch sirens are a very, very solid choice. eGaspy is a bit focus starved considering he really wants to spam Caustic Mist, and being able to drop focus on your arc nodes without using Gaspy's is really nice. A pair of venoms is also really, really handy in just about any list, especially when you can advance the sirens under the cover of smoke.

I have been playing with Gorman and was wondering the best way to use him. Since we are on topic with that does anyone have any input?

Clay Williams wrote:I have been playing with Gorman and was wondering the best way to use him. Since we are on topic with that does anyone have any input?

Two words: Black Oil. He's worth his points just for that ability alone. And he's a great tool to nerf your opponen't strongest model(s) for at least one turn. You just have to keep him alive long enough (not that hard with Stealth) to get him within 4" of just that model you want to make blind and you get guaranteed hit regardless of DEF.

Sanctjud wrote:
In addition... the Bane Knights first because you actually want them to die.

People say that a lot, but I disagree. I don't WANT my Bane Knights to die, I just don't care that much if they do.