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So, trying to round out my Portfolio, I was thinking of adding an MMO concept to the Fighting, Shooters, Horror, and Action games I have.

Anyway, what do you guys rate in importance in an MMO?

Story, or rather, what's going on in the background

Crafting

PVP

PVE

Character Customization

Also, what is everyone's thoughts on Tron's art style, where everything is Black with neon lights?

(Sorry, this will be the last topic I post about this in a while, until I start Modeling stuff.

Monthly Subscriptions

I go through a ton of video game mood swings that I cant commit too many consecutive months. Reason why I used to play guild wars back then. And these days I just play betas till they run out or I get disinterested (Lego, DC)

Community
Sense of Verisimilitude
PvP like Dark Age/Warhammer Online - sides, not parties
PvE
Crafting

Do my friends play.

kenshin620 wrote:Monthly Subscriptions

I go through a ton of video game mood swings that I cant commit too many consecutive months. Reason why I used to play guild wars back then. And these days I just play betas till they run out or I get disinterested (Lego, DC)

Ok, pillage the secret to a Free to Play MMO from Guild Wars....

Ahtman wrote:Community
Sense of Verisimilitude
PvP like Dark Age/Warhammer Online - sides, not parties
PvE
Crafting

Well, not sure what Veisimilitude means, and can't look it up as I am getting ready for work and quick replying, but ok. Can't control that top one, though

malfred wrote:Do my friends play.

Figured that was a given

cost and amount of grinding.

Slarg232 wrote:Well, not sure what Veisimilitude means, and can't look it up as I am getting ready for work and quick replying, but ok. Can't control that top one, though

Does it seem like a real world or is it just Forest Zone A, Ice Zone B. Does it seem like you inhabit a real or interesting place that you would want to visit.

Not a WoW cookie-cutter game... Variety, and my Friends, oh yes, and customization of course!

The more character customization there is, the more I tend to like the game. I prefer MMOs that let you keep one or two solid looks that you've spent some time creating for yourself, instead of a loot-based appearance that makes you constantly look like a bag of skittles (CoH, CO, LotRO, PotBS, etc.). Classless, skill-based progression systems are far more enjoyable and rewarding to me than the boring class systems that plague MMOs nowadays, as they actually allow me to make my own character, to any specification I wish.

An in-depth economy definitely helps me enjoy an MMO, as I've always been into crafting, and there's no reason to craft unless it actually has a profound effect on the game world (EVE, PotBS, formerly SWG). An open, dynamic sandbox environment in which you can see the consequences of your own actions is amazing, even moreso if it has things like player-run cities (which are definitely dwindling these days). This actually helps to make it feel like a world, with similar risk and reward, instead of just a stagnant themepark.

I prefer an MMO to be set in an environment where I can create my own story. Good quest writing and a persistant storyline is all well and good until you've done the same quests five times over and have seen the main storyline play out in exactly the same way, and can't stand to make another character because of that. I liked the way that Pre-CU SWG and Anarchy Online handled questing most of all, even if some people might find it a bit boring.

I hate restrictive class-systems, themeparked worlds, raiding and PVP-centric games, lack of player housing, and the obsession with loot (as opposed to player-made goods) that most MMOs seem to have. It makes me sick to see how WoW has the industry's nuts in a vice grip.

I would say the feeling of being in a fantasy world that seems real and that I can explore. I was instantly turned off WoW when I was sent on a quest to get 4 zebra hooves. "Easy" I think, one zebra, four legs, axe meets face, no worries.
Kill the zebra, no hooves. Kill the next one, no hooves. And the next. And the next. And the next. One hoof.
WTF? Broke my suspension of disbelief entirely, and it was needless, I think.

Da Boss wrote:I would say the feeling of being in a fantasy world that seems real and that I can explore. I was instantly turned off WoW when I was sent on a quest to get 4 zebra hooves. "Easy" I think, one zebra, four legs, axe meets face, no worries.
Kill the zebra, no hooves. Kill the next one, no hooves. And the next. And the next. And the next. One hoof.
WTF? Broke my suspension of disbelief entirely, and it was needless, I think.

If you're looking for reality, most video games are not for you

For one thing, you have a third person camera

I didn't say I was looking for reality.

Ahtman wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:Well, not sure what Veisimilitude means, and can't look it up as I am getting ready for work and quick replying, but ok. Can't control that top one, though

Does it seem like a real world or is it just Forest Zone A, Ice Zone B. Does it seem like you inhabit a real or interesting place that you would want to visit.

Well, probably going to not have a very Veisimilitude game then. The "story" is kind of a messhup between Tron, Megaman NT Warrior, and Reboot. The world has been connected by the Internet (Google Megaman NT Warrior for specifics), but a Terrorist organization has uploaded a Super Virus that is destroying the Internet at an astonding rate. The side effect of the Virus, however, is that the Programs (I.E. players) are becoming self aware. While all Programs are trying to destroy the Virus, they are split into two groups that constantly fight; One that wants to live in harmony with the humans, one that wants freedom. The zones would be gridlike, a la Tron (though not as dark, and more variety in color), or they would be various websites that are surviving the Virus with certain backgrounds (Sorry, no Pr0n).

Footsloggin wrote:Not a WoW cookie-cutter game... Variety, and my Friends, oh yes, and customization of course!

Well, personally, I really want to further explore a TPS MMO, rather than the standard look down overtop MMO.

As for customization, I want it to be more CoH/V, rather than say GW, but let's face it, that level of customization is just way too over the top for me. I can say I want it in the game, but it's not going to happen.

Chrysaor686 wrote:I hate restrictive class-systems, themeparked worlds, raiding and PVP-centric games, lack of player housing, and the obsession with loot (as opposed to player-made goods) that most MMOs seem to have. It makes me sick to see how WoW has the industry's nuts in a vice grip.

As for "classes":

If you have read the rest of the post, you would know that this is set in the Internet. When you first "Boot up your Program", you are allowed to choose which type of program you were: Security, Game, Search, Hack, and probably a few others.

Security: + Health, - Speed (It's going to stay safe... But it's reactionary)
Game: + Speed, - Accuracy (Spray and Pray noobs )
Search: + Accuracy, - Health (It can always find it's target)
Hack: (?) (I know that it will be in the game, just not what it should do)

Any "Class" can use any weapon, though different "classes" are going to excell with different weapons (Search with Snipers, for instance). There won't be any "Class Skills", though you will be able to increase things like (weapon type) Accuracy, Viral Resistance, Damage Resistance, Hack skills (support skills, like increasing friendly damage), C++ (Crafting )

As for your own story, don't worry, First MMO I played was Shadowbane, and all that was was taking other players' cities and political movements. I am going to try to incorperate that into this game.

As for the economy, I have put a fair amount of thought into that....

Crafting will be done like in Dragon Age: Origins. If you have the ingrediants, you can just push a button and it will craft it for you, no need for all this silly drag and drop crap. But anyway, The most situationally powerful weapons in the game (Note, NOT the most powerful) will be grenades. One use only, per craft. This will cause people to actually have to manage their grenades and not just SPAM SPAM SPAM! Also, the most powerful grenades in the game, Viral Grenades, which can basically stop the enemy in their tracks, will require several high level items.... and then some items that are only on Newb Island (Shadowbane) or Old Ascalon (Guild Wars). This will cause new players to instantly have bargaining chips in the economy right as soon as they get past the prologue, which will help them try out the cheap weapons of every type, which will allow them to decide what character is best for them. While there is nothing to stop someone from just remaking a character and farming them, you really can't stop people from farming crafting ingredients, anyway, and such a notion is folly.

As for basic shooting mechanics: Your a program, on the Internet, right? There is no ammo. Instead, every player has an Energy Bar that depletes upon firing and recharges when your not. Various upgrades, which include less damage for slower depletion rates (Suppression roles), Higher Damage for Higher Depletion rates (Damage Roles), Recharge slowly while firing, and several others will exist for the purpose of allowing you to customize your weapons/roles will exist. I have a plan for a Healing Weapon Mod that cuts Heals in half, but you can scroll through your parties names with the Middle Mouse Wheel, and if you have line of site and they are within range, it auto tags them with the heal.

Those Viral Grenades, while with a small blast radius, will shut down the Energy Bar Recharge for a few seconds, making the opposing team make their shots count/run out of ammo fast, depending on the type of Role they are in.

Still in the conception stages, so all of this is subject to change, but how does that sound for all you potential players out there? I figure 3rd Person Shooting with a hint of Borderlands (Click on corpses on the floor while they are highlighted) would be better than those Shooting MMO's where you can't attack while not in the right mode, though I could be wrong.

Pretty much anything that isn't totally generic and doesn't have the standard "trading blows" thing for combat like WOW and Runescape.

What do you look for in an MMO?

Depth of plot, character impact on the game environment, sandbox style exploration, focus on game play instead of mathematics, balanced PVP, tuned interface.

Things like graphics I don't care a flip about, sound...meh I usually turn the music off anyway and listen to Pandora.

Sadly, there isn't an MMO out right now that can offer what I want in a game. Sites like WoWhead, World of Raids, Thottbot, and Alakazam ruined the thrill of discovery and advancement. That and being able to make a visible impact on the world (IE the AO node control servers) are really the only thing that can KEEP you playing past the "omg this is new and exciting" phase.

I've played everything since EQ beta.

What I look for:
• Non grind based gameplay (i.e. not WoW).
• Variety and flexibility with character/class customisation.
• Support for solo gameplay/the ability to solo a large portion of the game.
• Decent PVE.
• Engaging story with depth and preferably voice acting.
• Non cookie cutter structure/gameplay (i.e. not WoW).
• Support for a cash shop/secondary currency that doesn’t take over the game (i.e. not Runes of Magic).

Slarg232 wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:Well, not sure what Veisimilitude means, and can't look it up as I am getting ready for work and quick replying, but ok. Can't control that top one, though

Does it seem like a real world or is it just Forest Zone A, Ice Zone B. Does it seem like you inhabit a real or interesting place that you would want to visit.

Well, probably going to not have a very Veisimilitude game then. The "story" is kind of a messhup between Tron, Megaman NT Warrior, and Reboot. The world has been connected by the Internet (Google Megaman NT Warrior for specifics), but a Terrorist organization has uploaded a Super Virus that is destroying the Internet at an astonding rate. The side effect of the Virus, however, is that the Programs (I.E. players) are becoming self aware. While all Programs are trying to destroy the Virus, they are split into two groups that constantly fight; One that wants to live in harmony with the humans, one that wants freedom. The zones would be gridlike, a la Tron (though not as dark, and more variety in color), or they would be various websites that are surviving the Virus with certain backgrounds (Sorry, no Pr0n).

Being a real world doesn't mean the same as being our world. You can have a digital world, but it needs to have it's own rules of existence (and stick to them), as well as crafting in world objects so that they appear to be in the world and not some drawing on top of a 3D background. You have to combine artistic elements with in game assets to suck the player in giving a sense that this fantastic place is real.

Chrysaor686 wrote:The more character customization there is, the more I tend to like the game. I prefer MMOs that let you keep one or two solid looks that you've spent some time creating for yourself, instead of a loot-based appearance that makes you constantly look like a bag of skittles (CoH, CO, LotRO, PotBS, etc.). Classless, skill-based progression systems are far more enjoyable and rewarding to me than the boring class systems that plague MMOs nowadays, as they actually allow me to make my own character, to any specification I wish.

An in-depth economy definitely helps me enjoy an MMO, as I've always been into crafting, and there's no reason to craft unless it actually has a profound effect on the game world (EVE, PotBS, formerly SWG). An open, dynamic sandbox environment in which you can see the consequences of your own actions is amazing, even moreso if it has things like player-run cities (which are definitely dwindling these days). This actually helps to make it feel like a world, with similar risk and reward, instead of just a stagnant themepark.

I prefer an MMO to be set in an environment where I can create my own story. Good quest writing and a persistant storyline is all well and good until you've done the same quests five times over and have seen the main storyline play out in exactly the same way, and can't stand to make another character because of that. I liked the way that Pre-CU SWG and Anarchy Online handled questing most of all, even if some people might find it a bit boring.

I hate restrictive class-systems, themeparked worlds, raiding and PVP-centric games, lack of player housing, and the obsession with loot (as opposed to player-made goods) that most MMOs seem to have. It makes me sick to see how WoW has the industry's nuts in a vice grip.

I havent been playing Lord of the rings online very long, but you have outfit equipment that overlays your actual gear, just so that you do not look like a bag of skittles. I was impressed because that was something that bugged me about WoW, you get the armor you have been waiting for for months...and it is purple with starts on it. In lord of the rings, there are literally thousands upon thousands of clothing options, all with different looks. You can also change the color of the pieces of clothing similar to how you can in GW. For being a free game, lord of the rings is very very very good.

KingKodo wrote:I havent been playing Lord of the rings online very long, but you have outfit equipment that overlays your actual gear, just so that you do not look like a bag of skittles. I was impressed because that was something that bugged me about WoW, you get the armor you have been waiting for for months...and it is purple with starts on it. In lord of the rings, there are literally thousands upon thousands of clothing options, all with different looks. You can also change the color of the pieces of clothing similar to how you can in GW. For being a free game, lord of the rings is very very very good.

I did mention this in my earlier post. LotRO does have those options, but I prefer to have all your options layed out for you at the outset, instead of having to scour the game world for cool clothing and dyes (this does not lend itself very well to creativity within character customization). LotRO is indeed an amazing F2P game, but only because it was P2P for a few years.

Champions Online has the best character customization of any MMO (despite being leached entirely from City of Heroes and improved), and it is also going F2P in the Spring. The free trial will give you complete free reign over the character customization system, however, so I suggest you check it out if you haven't already.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Champions Online has the best character customization of any MMO (despite being leached entirely from City of Heroes and improved)

That seems to make sense as the people originally created City of Heroes created Champions Online.

Right, so they can take creative liberties wherever they please. It just seems like a half-assed effort, even if the character creator for CO has a few minor improvements over CoH.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Right, so they can take creative liberties wherever they please.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Calling Champions Online a rip off of City of Heroes is not to far from calling Super Mario 2 a rip off of Super Mario: same development team, same design philosophy, more options, prettier graphics.

What I mean by that is that Cryptic Studios has the absolute right to lift any aspect from CoH that they wish and incorporate it into Champions, but I also consider this to be utter half-assery. They could've done a much better job differentiating certain aspects of Champions from CoH, but they didn't. They opted to take the easy way out by resting on their laurels instead of bringing any sort of major innovation to the table.

Regardless of whether or not the character creation system in Champions is a gratuitous amount of copy pasta, it's still the best in the genre.

Character customization.

How much grinding is required? Am I going to have to spend hour upon hour upon hour doing stupid repetitive task #88 just to stay competitive or just to allow me to spend game-days of time on stupid repetitive task #103? Or is it actually going to be fun. A game that relies upon endless grinds to supply it's replayability isn't going to last with me. A good example being World of Tanks or Call of Duty: BO. Do you have to work to get XP and cash? Sure, but is it pointless boring grinding? No. In both games every few matches I'll have the cash or XP to level up or get some new piece of kit and keep doing what's fun. In WoW I'd spend days killing the same weak and pathetic enemies just to try and get some dumbass group of NPCs to like me so I could buy a recipe that was actually worthless but would reduce the time I'd have to spend grinding on a skill from weeks to just a week or two. I've heard WoW is different now but looking back to when I played it was nothing but one grind after another.

I'm a little surprised by all the WoW hate. Are people just sick of it or did you always hate it?

As for myself, when I get involved in an MMO, I'm going to sink a lot of time into it. So, it better be good and have a community that is going to last for a few years and not abandon it. I also prefer to start playing a game with it's launch. I love the feeling of breaking in a new zone, just you and a few other players exploring the unknown.

If you start a game a week or more after launch, everywhere you go will already be totally overpopulated.

Grakmar wrote:I'm a little surprised by all the WoW hate. Are people just sick of it or did you always hate it?

I don't necessarily hate WoW, I hate what it's done to the industry. Because of the game's popularity, nearly every MMO development team feels that they must emulate WoW specifically, and now the entire genre is comprised of stagnant plagiarism.

You can only play so many WoW clones before it drives you insane, especially when you have a great preference for open sandbox environments, strong player economy, and unlimited options for character customization and progression. I definitely see the game's merits, it's incredibly well-polished, and I've gotten a lot of fun out of it over the years, but it has singlehandedly killed all creativity in the genre. This makes me resent the fact that it even exists.

Grakmar wrote:I'm a little surprised by all the WoW hate. Are people just sick of it or did you always hate it?

In my experience, people don’t hate it at first but grow to hate it after playing it for a while. I personally played WoW with my mates for a couple of years and I don’t regret playing it. Personally I smartened up and realised the flaws of the game and found better games to play (such as Guild Wars, DDO and LOTRO).

The main flaw with WoW is not the amount of content or depth but the excessive grind/gear based model the game uses. The majority of a player’s time is generally eaten up grinding versus “playing the game” and at $42 AUD a gamecard, it’s hard to justify when you weigh up the entertainment received versus money/time spent. Interestingly enough an unfortunate side effect of this is that the excessive grind needed for good gear exponentially increased scamming and community elitism. The radical powerscale difference between standard gear, end game gear and items released in expansion packs unbalanced PVP to a large degree. It is probably a likely fact that Blizzard purposely structured the game around grinding to increase subscription revenue.

I remember one of the creators of Warhammer Online once said that WoW’s success can be attributed as an accident/fluke as it is hard to distinguish whether a lot of the games features are good or bad. I generally agree with this. As Chrysaor686 has stated, WoWs popularity has resulted in a lot of other companies trying to emulate WoW’s success by flooding the market with WoW clones, which in turn encourages people to play WoW even further. This in turn has stifled creativity somewhat as far as MMOs are concerned but has also encouraged various companies to jump onto the MMO bandwagon and flood the market with dodgey MMOs.

The biggest thing for me is a storyline I can lose myself in, that isn't filled with inconsistancies, or just stupid design to allow the player characters to do the 'heroic stuff'.

World of Warcraft is one of the above. The guards, especially as of the latest expansion, are quite capable of taking on the average player and coming out on top (Talking about the Furious Hyjal Wardens here for any WoW players), and there's more than 25 of them at this level across the gameworld, yet in 6 months they'll send 25 players, or 10 players against the big nastys of the game.

You just don't have a good grasp of the characters power levels relative to everything else, as Blizzard is far more concerned about the raiding and PvP community than creating an immersive story experience. It's like 'We're going to make it possible for you to die if you pull three of these little minion creatures out in the game world on your own, and pull four or five and you don't stand a chance in hell, but 10/25 of you can group together to take out a massive dragon capable of destroying the world, as well as Demon Lords, Undead Kings and their Elemental Prince minions.'

Having strong elements of an MMO that aren't often seen (I.E A strong crafting system), is also very appealing, as is MMOs that try to break the mold in some way, as WoW clones do get boring.

Guild Wars 2, The Old Republic and Rift look like the big three I'm looking out for, in that order. I'm especially a fan of the player-based world and player 'team-tactics' that Guild Wars is attempting to implement.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Right, so they can take creative liberties wherever they please. It just seems like a half-assed effort, even if the character creator for CO has a few minor improvements over CoH.

I'm friends with several folks that work at Cryptic. Even they say its kind of a crap game.....they sent out free beta invites and I think only 3 of my friends tried it. Quit soon after.

Peter Wiggin wrote:I'm friends with several folks that work at Cryptic. Even they say its kind of a crap game.....they sent out free beta invites and I think only 3 of my friends tried it. Quit soon after.

Champions Online has a lot of really amazing aspects to it. Again, the character customization is bar-none, and the ability to customize your own class consisting of literally any power in the game opens up an aspect of character design that you literally can't find anywhere else. The combat is more fun than any MMO I've found, with great responsiveness, an incredibly fast pace, arcade-style powerups and health items, chargeable attacks, and practically no downtime. The ability to use an X-Box 360 controller instead of a keyboard to control the action onscreen also gives the game a much more action-oriented feel, though the controller support isn't exactly what you could call fully functional..

However, the depressing lack of content, extreme amount of instancing, lack of a need to group with other players, and PVP balance issues drag this game down so far that I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't last another year.

I would most definitely play it for free, though, and I think that it might give the game the boost in subscriptions that it needs, seeing as how you can't create your own classes in the free-to-play iteration of the game. Cryptic is the best developer around for creating free post-release content for their games, this game just needs a really long time to get where it needs to be in order to really be worthwhile.