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Im going to come straight out with this, i am a MASSIVE weirdo and to be honest a bit mad to. So this means that even though im in high school i still chat about all the latest pokemon news. But lately when looking at the new game i have seen a bucket load of new awesome bug type pokemon (like durant) that have elements of other types in them (durants a bug/metal type) that finally make a good bug type into your team! I think this is because all the times before bugs have bieng very rarely mixed with other types and were often (unless from a honey tree thing) caught in few places and were horribly weak because they just had so many things that were super effective against them. But the new mixed types avoid that by giving them a new edge, i just wanted to here your own view on my thoughts?

Bug has always been an awesome typing. Scizor, Heracross, and Ninjask were always OU, and Scizor was a dominant force in D/P/Pl standard play (and you sometimes even saw him in Ubers, that's just how good he is). People always build their teams keeping Heracross in mind, and Ninjask was the Baton Pass king.

Havn't seen the stats for the new pokemon, but I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked ass.

If there's any typing that really needs some good entries, it's either fire or ice. They both offer some useful offensive abilities (especially ice), but STAB doesn't warrant their poor defensive typing (especially ice, which'll kill most of the threats you throw it at in one or two hits anyway).

haloreach4ever wrote:Im going to come straight out with this, i am a MASSIVE weirdo and to be honest a bit mad to. So this means that even though im in high school i still chat about all the latest pokemon news. But lately when looking at the new game i have seen a bucket load of new awesome bug type pokemon (like durant) that have elements of other types in them (durants a bug/metal type) that finally make a good bug type into your team! I think this is because all the times before bugs have bieng very rarely mixed with other types and were often (unless from a honey tree thing) caught in few places and were horribly weak because they just had so many things that were super effective against them. But the new mixed types avoid that by giving them a new edge, i just wanted to here your own view on my thoughts?

Mixed types give you double the weaknesses.

Strengths lie in being able to teach them TM/HM moves of a type that can combat the element that they are weak against.

Even a Bug/Steel type, like the Steel upgrade of Scyther (forgot the evolution). You gain nothing, but access to new moves.

Dragon types and ultimate evolutions (usually a 3rd evolution) are where its at.

AvatarForm wrote:
Mixed types give you double the weaknesses.

Not really. Scizor is Bug/Steel, but is only (double) weak to fire. Gyarados (feth YEAH!) is Water/Flying, but is only weak to electric and rock. Many typings provide plenty of great defensive bonuses. And in other situations, a pokemon's weaknesses don't really matter (if a Weavile gets looked at funny it dies, but it sweeps like a champ).

Strengths lie in being able to teach them TM/HM moves of a type that can combat the element that they are weak against.

That depends on the pokemon involved.

Even a Bug/Steel type, like the Steel upgrade of Scyther (forgot the evolution). You gain nothing, but access to new moves.

Aside from increased stats, Scizor is weak to only one type (fire). His combination of offense and defense make him incredible.

Dragon types and ultimate evolutions (usually a 3rd evolution) are where its at.

The 600 Dragons are cool, but all it takes is a single ice beam to take one out usually. And everyone and their dog takes ice beam. If you run an all 600 Dragon team, you may get one or two kills before a choice scarf sweeper with ice beam takes down your entire team on their own. The Raindance team I usually run tends to have at least 3 (or was it four?) ice beams and 2 earthquakes just to counter any 600 Dragon that comes its way.

May i just say that many pokemon like scizor and herecross are really quite hard to come by. I have never seen a scizor in game and i find herecross hard to catch because of the honey tree thing.

I just use Pokemon Lab (Shoddybattle 2).

I just found something on internet some guys might like:


Generation V is the only Generation to introduce a Bug-type legendary Pokémon: Genesect.

they finally made a bug legendary!!!!!!!

But is it any good?

Also this same site agrees with me that bug pokemon are weaklings:


Statistically, Bug-type Pokémon are the weakest, as most fully evolved Bug-type Pokémon have stats that aren't even close to 400. However, Generation IV and V introduced several Bug-type Pokémon with base stat totals over 500, including one at 600 (Genesect).



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No clue only got white yesterday evening.


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Also heres the web address for the site in case you want to check it out:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bug_(type)

Fafnir wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:
Mixed types give you double the weaknesses.

Not really. Scizor is Bug/Steel, but is only (double) weak to fire. Gyarados (feth YEAH!) is Water/Flying, but is only weak to electric and rock. Many typings provide plenty of great defensive bonuses. And in other situations, a pokemon's weaknesses don't really matter (if a Weavile gets looked at funny it dies, but it sweeps like a champ).

Strengths lie in being able to teach them TM/HM moves of a type that can combat the element that they are weak against.

That depends on the pokemon involved.

Even a Bug/Steel type, like the Steel upgrade of Scyther (forgot the evolution). You gain nothing, but access to new moves.

Aside from increased stats, Scizor is weak to only one type (fire). His combination of offense and defense make him incredible.

Dragon types and ultimate evolutions (usually a 3rd evolution) are where its at.

The 600 Dragons are cool, but all it takes is a single ice beam to take one out usually. And everyone and their dog takes ice beam. If you run an all 600 Dragon team, you may get one or two kills before a choice scarf sweeper with ice beam takes down your entire team on their own. The Raindance team I usually run tends to have at least 3 (or was it four?) ice beams and 2 earthquakes just to counter any 600 Dragon that comes its way.

I only played pokemon casually, Im not talking elite tournament levels. But, in general, Scizor has more weaknesses than just fire.

Also, I was not referring to running all dragon types, but at the same time, dragon is almost universally neutral or strong to most types.

Also, why the fuss about Baton pass? I thought it was a wasted move cos it was absically a switch pokemon. Does it have applications?

And heres the link for bug legendary:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Genesect_(Pok%C3%A9mon)


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I also only play pokemon at a casual level so no stuff on world competition and all 600 dragons rubbish wish a casual player does not care about.

haloreach4ever wrote:Also this same site agrees with me that bug pokemon are weaklings:


Statistically, Bug-type Pokémon are the weakest, as most fully evolved Bug-type Pokémon have stats that aren't even close to 400. However, Generation IV and V introduced several Bug-type Pokémon with base stat totals over 500, including one at 600 (Genesect).

There are a lot of crappy bug pokemon, but that's because there's a lot of bug pokemon. There are a a fair amount of really good bug types.

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Also heres the web address for the site in case you want to check it out:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bug_(type)

Bulbepedia has some decent information, but is a poor place to go for strategy.

Check out http://www.smogon.com.

AvatarForm wrote:
I only played pokemon casually, Im not talking elite tournament levels. But, in general, Scizor has more weaknesses than just fire.

Nope. He only has a 4* weakness to fire. He also packs a tonne of awesome resistances.

Also, I was not referring to running all dragon types, but at the same time, dragon is almost universally neutral or strong to most types.

Ice. Everyone and their dog uses it. Most dragons are 4* weak to it.

Also, why the fuss about Baton pass? I thought it was a wasted move cos it was absically a switch pokemon. Does it have applications?

It passes stat bonuses. Use buff moves and then pass them on to another pokemon. There are entire teams built around the move.

Fafnir wrote:

haloreach4ever wrote:Also this same site agrees with me that bug pokemon are weaklings:


Statistically, Bug-type Pokémon are the weakest, as most fully evolved Bug-type Pokémon have stats that aren't even close to 400. However, Generation IV and V introduced several Bug-type Pokémon with base stat totals over 500, including one at 600 (Genesect).

There are a lot of crappy bug pokemon, but that's because there's a lot of bug pokemon. There are a a fair amount of really good bug types.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also heres the web address for the site in case you want to check it out:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bug_(type)

Bulbepedia has some decent information, but is a poor place to go for strategy.

Check out http://www.smogon.com.

AvatarForm wrote:
I only played pokemon casually, Im not talking elite tournament levels. But, in general, Scizor has more weaknesses than just fire.

Nope. He only has a 4* weakness to fire. He also packs a tonne of awesome resistances.

Also, I was not referring to running all dragon types, but at the same time, dragon is almost universally neutral or strong to most types.

Ice. Everyone and their dog uses it. Most dragons are 4* weak to it.

Also, why the fuss about Baton pass? I thought it was a wasted move cos it was absically a switch pokemon. Does it have applications?

It passes stat bonuses. Use buff moves and then pass them on to another pokemon. There are entire teams built around the move.

interesting. and useless at the same time...

How (why?) does someone go about actually calculating/ranking levels/degrees of weakness and strength?

I always thought it was cut and dry, then the amount of damage was geared by the strength of the Move.

Eg. Assume Surf is power 60, at the same level (opponent and your pokemon) you can safely assume (without modifiers, Ie. Growl or Defence Curl, etc) that you will take 60% of your opponents HP. Whereas, a stronger move of power 120 will one shot it.

I know this is loose theory, but how do you calculate this? And who is serious enough about a GAME to theroycraft enough tests to work this stuff out... aside from being a programmer or hacking/leaking actual programming?

AvatarForm wrote:
interesting. and useless at the same time...

How (why?) does someone go about actually calculating/ranking levels/degrees of weakness and strength?

...it's absurdly simple. If a pokemon has a type that's weak against fire, it takes twice as much damage from fire. If it has two types that are weak against fire, it takes four times as much damage. The reverse is also true.

I always thought it was cut and dry, then the amount of damage was geared by the strength of the Move.

Nope. Here's the damage formula:

Damage = ((((2 * Level / 5 + 2) * AttackStat * AttackPower / DefenseStat) / 50) + 2) * STAB * Weakness/Resistance * RandomNumber / 100

AttackStat is the offensive stat of the pokemon using the attack (Special Attack or Attack, depending on the attack itself) (after modifiers!), AttackPower is the power of the individual attack, DefenseStat is the defense of the defender (Special Defense or Defense, depending on the attack itself).

STAB, or Same-Type-Attack-Bonus is the bonus you get for using the same type as the pokemon. It's always 1.5. So if a fire pokemon uses flamethrower, the attack recieves a 1.5* damage modifier. If a pokemon that does not have fire typing uses flamethrower, the attack has the normal 1* modifier.

Weakness/Resistance is exactly what it sounds like. Each weakness multiplies the damage by 2, and each resistance divides the damage by 2.

RandomNumber is just that, a random number between 85 and 100.

Eg. Assume Surf is power 60,

It has power 95

Scizor was always held back by a crappy move availability. If I remember correctly, when he first came out in Gold/Silver, the best you could get on him was slash powered up by sword's dance. It was in Ruby/Saphire I think they introduced X-cissor, and he finally had a good offensive move to pair with his awesome stats.

I used to use Pokemon Lab, maybe I'll get into it again now that I know some buddies who might like playing. Rebuild my old team.

Gengar still a sweeping abomination?

LordofHats wrote:Scizor was always held back by a crappy move availability. If I remember correctly, when he first came out in Gold/Silver, the best you could get on him was slash powered up by sword's dance. It was in Ruby/Saphire I think they introduced X-cissor, and he finally had a good offensive move to pair with his awesome stats.

G/S/C is a completely different beast from R/S/E and onward (seriously, the systems in the game were completely overhauled).

And Scizor's got a lovely movepool for what he's supposed to do. He's great for revenge kills, scouting, sweeping, and baton passing.

Gengar still a sweeping abomination?

Always has, always will. He's fast, he's powerful, and he's unpredictable.

Always loved Gengar (even before I tried with the online simulators). He and Scizor were my favorite going back to Silver.

I'm a huge fan of Suicune. You bring him out as a starter, and no one knows what to do against it.

Fafnir wrote:I'm a huge fan of Suicune. You bring him out as a starter, and no one knows what to do against it.

Which one is Suicune? I havent played since Gold/Silver... except for a flutter on Pearl.

Also, I can understand your formula. It is quite cut and dry.

However, I did not realise that if you are Fire and use a Fire type move, that you did extra 50% damage, as opposed to a Dragon using Fire moves. This is good to know.

RE: Surf, I said 'assume', I didnt know the power off the top of my head. No points for you there.

Back in the day I used whatever my highest level types were... Sandslash or Golem along with Gengar were always my first out.

AvatarForm wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I'm a huge fan of Suicune. You bring him out as a starter, and no one knows what to do against it.

Which one is Suicune? I havent played since Gold/Silver... except for a flutter on Pearl.

The water legendary dog from G/S/C. It's a great bulky water and a lovely tank.

However, I did not realise that if you are Fire and use a Fire type move, that you did extra 50% damage, as opposed to a Dragon using Fire moves. This is good to know.

Incredibly useful, but it's only important (hugely so) if you're playing multiplayer.

When did pokemon start to get competitive?

(is shocked)

While this thread is filled with 7 flavours of win it should be in the video games section.

corpsesarefun wrote:While this thread is filled with 7 flavours of win it should be in the video games section.

but then noone would read it... and I wouldnt be able to find it again... seriously, threads in there move like /b/

AvatarForm wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:While this thread is filled with 7 flavours of win it should be in the video games section.

but then noone would read it... and I wouldnt be able to find it again... seriously, threads in there move like /b/

Really? I've always found it to be quite a popular forum.

Soladrin wrote:When did pokemon start to get competitive?

(is shocked)

1998?

^ Pretty much

So, in the first generation Bug types sucked completely. In the second we got Scizor, Forettress and Heracross, but they didn't have very good movepools.

Now, all three of those rule. And we got several new good Bugs.

I'm interested in Volcorona(I think thats what it is called, the Fire Bug) it as huge Special attack, good speed, and it learns a move called butterfly dance which I believe increases Sp.Attack, Speed, and SP.Def. Could be wrong though.

Well, the point is, it looks like it has the potential to be a great sweeper, I'm giving it a go. there are lot's of bugs in this Gen and I think many of them could possibly be good.

Mike Noble wrote:
I'm interested in Volcorona(I think thats what it is called, the Fire Bug) it as huge Special attack, good speed, and it learns a move called butterfly dance which I believe increases Sp.Attack, Speed, and SP.Def. Could be wrong though.

Well, the point is, it looks like it has the potential to be a great sweeper, I'm giving it a go.

And amazing Baton Pass material. Not only would it significantly buff mixed sweepers, but it also makes the entire BP team that much harder to predict (Oh no, they pulled out Swords Dance! Quick, switch to Skarmary and use Roar). Now they'll have no clue what counter to use if they can't immediately force a switch.

This thread made me purchase black and white and a used dslite. God damnit. Working on a team based on pignite, timburr, roggenrolla, and herdier. All level 22ish.

I was looking through the thread and saw that people seem to be having trouble with black/white stats so i thought i would help (slightly)

http://pokemondb.net/pokedex/game/black-white

hopefully that will help

and whoever said (i forget) 'double the type gives double the weaknesses' forgot spiritomb

Fafnir wrote:

Mike Noble wrote:
I'm interested in Volcorona(I think thats what it is called, the Fire Bug) it as huge Special attack, good speed, and it learns a move called butterfly dance which I believe increases Sp.Attack, Speed, and SP.Def. Could be wrong though.

Well, the point is, it looks like it has the potential to be a great sweeper, I'm giving it a go.

And amazing Baton Pass material. Not only would it significantly buff mixed sweepers, but it also makes the entire BP team that much harder to predict (Oh no, they pulled out Swords Dance! Quick, switch to Skarmary and use Roar). Now they'll have no clue what counter to use if they can't immediately force a switch.

Ugh, Baton pass is so utterly broken. Use an Ingrain/BP Smeargle so they can't force a switch(Or Mr. Mime), and buff up.