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After GW's price rises, i've decided that enough is enough and i'm thinking of moving to a different system, such as KoW. I've read the rules PDF (why couldn't GW create rules this simple?) and the army lists for the only two races i'm interested in (they don't have a Chaos or Lizardmen equiv. so it's either Abyssal Dwarves or Elves, and i'm leaning towards Elves because they have bows and shooty gubbins), but there's nowhere I can find example army lists or even lists to base choices off.

This leaves me in a pickle; I can either buy an army and try it out, or ask how stuff is, so i've gone with the latter.

Basically, i've got two armies, 1000pts and 1500pts (1000pts is simply the King's Cohort deal but only using 1 BT, the army standard and the mage-queen + the 4 regiments and scouts):

1000pts:
Mage-Queen - 120pts
Army Standard - 30pts
2x Bowman Regiment w/ Banners - 350pts
2x Spearmen Regiment w/ Banners + Musicians - 270pts
2x Scout Troops - 160pts
1x Bolt Thrower - 70pts

Total - 1000pts

1500pts:
Mage-Queen - 120pts
Prince - 60pts
Army Standard - 30pts
2x Bowman Regiment w/ Banners - 350pts
2x Spearmen Regiment w/ Musicians - 240pts
Sea Guard Horde w/ Musician - 395pts
2x Scout Troops - 160pts
2x Bolt Thrower - 140pts

Total - 1495pts

The 1500pts originally had two regiments of Palace Guard instead of the spear and the prince, but i'm not going to get them until they're plastic.

I want armies that are ranged at heart, but won't crumple in combat, although 2000pts i'm planning on grabbing some cavalry and ditching the prince for a battle dragon lord.

Now, i'm far from sure whether or not these armies and plans are 'good' in the sense that they'd be able to hold up against other armies. I want to win games, but if i've devised an army that won't win anything then i'd like to know why this is so, because I can't find any tacticas etc.

Yeah there is a real lack of tactics articles. unfortunately the mantic forum isn't very active.

I'm not an elf player (I use abyssal dwarves) but I do have a reasonable idea how elves play.

Both the lists look good. There is a lot of ranged power in them but they will fight back in cc too. The 2 bolt throwers in the 1500 list are nice.

I would drop the musician in one of the spearmen and the prince and take another bolt thrower. The prince won't do a huge amount, whereas elf bolt throwers are some of the best warmachines.

Would I be better off dropping the Sea Guard musician instead? The Spearmen would benfit more from the -1 to enemy nerve and the Sea Guard already put out 30 attacks (phalanx ftw); the remaining 10pts total would allow me to grab both of my scouts a musician in case I ever want to use them as a surprise rear or flank-charger.

They aren't amazing in combat on paper, but with 7 speed, decent offensive melee and being nimble, I can see them being able to hit exposed flanks, even if it's just to slow an advance or weaken a unit in preperation for them to be taken down by my bowmen/sea guard at range.

Hmm depends on how you plan on using the units. The Seaguard with the musicians would be good at taking out tough units but giving the spears a musician would make he units more balanced.

My main plan would be to run the Sea Guard in the centre, flanked by a unit of Spears and Bowmen on each side with a unit of Scouts on the flanks. Army Standard and Mage-Queen sit behind the Sea Guard (or beside if the Queen isn't in danger of getting sniped and can Zap stuff).

Sea Guard will aim to get the charge on any enemies and hold them, with the spears engaging smaller escort units or positioning themselves for a flank charge. Bowmen will aim to flank any units being held by the Sea Guard/spearmen.

Since I have strong ranged capabilities as well as the Mage-Queen to heal, i'm just as happy to let stuff try and out-shoot me if I benefit from it.

EDIT: New potential 1000pts list:

Mage-Queen - 120pts
Army Standard - 30pts
3x Bowman Troops w/ Banners - 300pts
2x Spearmen Regiment w/ Musicians - 240pts
2x Scout Troops w/ Musicians - 170pts
2x Bolt Thrower - 140pts

Total - 1000pts

Now get 30 ranged shots from the bowmen instead of 20 and an extra bolt thrower for more ranged carnage. Relying on the army standard to stop the smaller units routing if they take too much damage, but it's another unit for the enemy to target in exchange for 10 more arrows I can fire at a different unit of theirs, not to mention the extra thrower.

A couple of things to remember about Kings of War that makes it tactically different from other popular fantasy games... you can move through friendly units and you don't have to take nerve tests when friendly units are destroyed. Thus it is very viable tactic to screen units and counter charge. And also allows you to set up your army with depth (essential for Orcs I feel)

In terms of elves, I would be inclined to use troops of scouts or bowmen as a screen for my spearmen, place guard and cavalry... Let the enemy come to you as they get weakened by arrows and bolts, then unleash hell from your fresh combat units when the enemy is in range.

Moving through the units is my aim with the spearmen/bowmen. Bowmen would set up in front of the spearmen, who would then move forward to charge into oncoming enemies. It'd also be the same with the new 1k list, except the spears and bows would be set up like this:

BBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBB
---------SSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSS

with the spearmen moving forward to engage in combat. As the spears move, the gap in the middle should allow the centre bowmen's champ to keep LoS on an oncoming central unit, and they should be close enough so I can just sidestep the other bowmen if the champ can't see and be no worse off than if I was firing at extreme range.

The only issue that could arise with a side-step is a possible charge against the exposed bowmen, but if it looks to be the enemy's aim, I can pivot the spearmen enough for a flank charge on my next turn and keep the enmy facing the spear's front arc.

For the elves, I've seen just how devastating the War-Machine that uses "Dragons Breath (20) can be"

Run it up a flank and then turn and look at the flank of an opponents unit, and shoot, shoot, shoot.

Along with a big old horde of archers or 2, you're pretty much decimated by the time you get to combat.

The Dragon breath engine looks really hit and miss. If you can get it to the 12" required, then it seems great, but with only average defence and 2 nerve, all it takes is a volley of arrows to down it.

It does require a unit to fire on it for a turn, but I could've used a bolt-thrower instead, which outranges most ranged weapons and is less likely to get to pieces before it can damage anything.

I would stick with bolt throwers, great range and have a good chance of hitting.

Personaly i would go with Saxon's suggestion. Stick to scouts / bowmen for ranged and spearmen for melee. While being able to do both is nice I don't think sea guard are worth it. They will either be shooting or fighting but not both.

Having to walk up to an elf gunline only to have unharmed spearman charge through isn't going to be fun for anyone.

How should I have the gunline then? I can have:

Mage-Queen - 120pts
Army Standard - 30pts
2x Bowmen Troops w/ Banners - 200pts
1x Bowman Regiment w/ Banners - 175pts
2x Spearmen Regiment w/ Musicians - 240pts
1x Spearmen Horde - 210pts
3x Scout Troops - 240pts
4x Bolt Thrower - 280pts

Total - 1495pts

or

Mage-Queen - 120pts
Army Standard - 30pts
5x Bowmen Troops w/ Banners - 500pts
2x Spearmen Regiment w/ Musicians - 240pts
1x Spearmen Horde w/ Musician - 225pts
2x Scout Troops w/ Musicians - 170pts
3x Bolt Thrower - 210pts

Total - 1495pts

or

Mage-Queen - 120pts
Army Standard - 30pts
4x Bowmen Troops w/ Banners + Musicians - 420pts
4x Spearmen Regiment w/ Musicians - 480pts
2x Scout Troops w/ Musicians - 170pts
4x Bolt Thrower - 280pts

Total - 1500pts

Or anything along those lines, but I can't decide which.

IMO list 3 is the best. It's good a lot of ranged power but it's going to lose in melee either.

Just read this 1500 Elves vs Orcs battle report and I think I have a better understanding of what to do as elves.

I had initially planned to have to PG regiments in my 1.5k, but I can't afford them money-wise at the moment, so i'm waiting for them to come out in plastic; the Spears will have to do in this regard.

Spears will be ok. They aren't as good but they get more attacks. Any units that make it to your line should be heavily damaged already. Spearmen aren't bad troops and agains units that have already suffered ranged attacks they should do well.

Nice thread. We could think about an introductory article for KoW maybe. I'm starting Undead in a little while (if I'm still employed).
Where are you guys based? I'd love to get a game in.

My club is in chelmsford, essex.

Im starting soon and live in devon. Is the game fairly balanced? Im liking elves as well.

Looking at building undead as well, but it's really hard to know what will work - it's exciting to get into such a young game, as the collective understanding is currently poor but will develop very quickly.

Sorry to go OT but don't feel the question will warrant a new thread.

Would I be correct in thinking the Beta rules are significantly different from the first rules that were available?
I understand that the Orcs and Abyssal Dwarves will now have stats, so I need to start printing stuff of anyway.

Seem to have taken my eye of KoW of late.

There's a lot more tactical discussion over on the mantic fanatics forum: http://manticfanatics.smfforfree3.com/index.php

We've got a pretty good handle on what works and what doesn't at this point. The system is so well-balanced that it makes writing army lists quite hard, especially if you're used to writing GW lists where it mostly comes down to "well, the writer got the points cost massively wrong on that unit, so I'll take 3 of those...".

Fact is, there aren't really any "no-brainer" units, or useless units... you have to build lists with synergy between the units as your primary concern, because there are no deathstar units.

For instance with the dwarfs, you want ironclads to use as a screening unit to keep your berserkers and/or shieldbreakers from getting shot up before they reach enemy lines. Ironguard are another elite unit, one that doesn't need screens to survive, but they aren't as good at putting out damage like the more vulnerable berserkers (anti-infantry) and shieldbreakers (anti-tough things).

You want ironwatch to counter ranged threats or take out small annoying units that your dwarfs are too slow to reach, cannons to take out tough targets, organ guns to put pressure on infantry from a distance, flame cannon for short range massive damage.

Then there's the characters, which act more like they do in warmaster... individual units that you float around your regiments to provide inspiring and other buffs within a certain radius. The warsmith provides "elite" to war machines within 6 inches, so you can build your list around batteries of them.

Hope that gives everyone a pretty good idea of how the system is designed to work. Alessio did an absolutely cracking job with this ruleset.


There's a forum over on the fanatics board for army lists, and I've created Kings of War files to use for Battlescribe (free army building software).

I've also posted a series of "starter" 1000 point lists for each race made from an army box and a character pack for anyone who wants a cheap and easy way to get started.

I'm also up for a game at some point if anyone's in the Norfolk area.

Would I be correct in thinking the Beta rules are significantly different from the first rules that were available?

There aren't a massive amount of changes from the beta rules to the current (2010 edition) rules. Mostly adding a few new special rules, tidying up the existing ones, rewriting a whole bunch of the rules to make the wording more clear etc.

General "polishing" in other words. The army lists have had massive changes from their betas to their final versions though. The undead were very weak at first, so mantic fixed that after listening to all the lengthy comment people posted on their forums. Now the list is pretty much perfectly internally balanced. Asking the public for playtesting and feedback just plain works.

You'll want the latest version of all rules and army lists. Oh, and mantic have stated that a new version of the rules and all army lists will be released once per year, to make sure that the game remains well-balanced.

I find it funny that GW can't get their rules right or release more than a couple of army books per year even though they charge so much for them... and yet here mantic is, releasing a new army list every few months, updating everything once a year and giving it all away for free.

Looking at building undead as well, but it's really hard to know what will work - it's exciting to get into such a young game, as the collective understanding is currently poor but will develop very quickly.

The undead rely on their durability and ability to "grind"... they have very little missile fire, so you have to keep them alive until they can hit the enemy line and start grinding them down. It's all about dragging the enemy down into a war of attrition.

There are many different ways to do this.. you can either get a load of necromancers to keep healing your big blocks of skeletons, or you can take faster units such as ghouls, cavalry and wraiths and use dark surge to push them forward fast and lock the enemy missile troops in combat, buying time for your slower troops to arrive.

Well, having scouted about a bit, there's one other KoW player in my area, and nobody else i've talked to seems interested in starting it; which puts me in a hard spot, because GW is too expensive and i'm not interested in Warmahordes, but 40k/WHFB and Warmahordes are the only things people are playing.

Anyone know of anywhere in the general Manchester area (preferably within reach by bus or train since I can't afford car ownership) that has a reasonable KoW gathering? I really don't want to stay with GW, especially since all my armies are either in the WiP stage (and I can't afford to get the last bits) or are sub-par (with th good units being stupidly expensive).

Try picking up a couple of armies yourself and doing demo games. That's how I got people into it.

Warhammer models are compatible with Kings of War, so you can mention that, too. People can just use their warhammer models to play it if they don't like the models. In fact, most of the people currently playing KoW are doing this.

Failing that, if if absolutely no-one plays anything other than Fantasy, just play fantasy using the mantic models (or mostly mantic models) to make it more affordable. Most people will be fine with that unless they're total gits.

Dwarves are one army where you can get a 2000-point fantasy army from mantic for dirt cheap, since the models have a very high point cost.

Biggest challenge there is that I have no desire to build a High Elf or Dwarf WHFB army, and there isn't much I can easily represent with WoC or LM models in KoW.

I had considered buying the starter set for KoW and using it to teach people (perhaps even beating out a few starter lists for each race) but it all comes down to wether people are interested in starting it, and nobody is from what I could gather.

I don't want to shell out £200 on my army and starter armies/starter sets just to sit there like a wally as people ask if I do 40k.

I would try running a few demo games using GW figures. It won't cost them anything to give it a try and I'm sure some of them will enjoy it.

WoC could at a pinch represent Orcs, I think.
Marauders - Ax Regiments
Warriors - Great axe regiments
Warriors with different weapons - Morax Regiments

Cavalry can be gore riders, any chariots or warshrines can be chariots/fightwagones. Could work?

I believe Filbert mentioned (in the Vampire Knights N&R's thread) that Mantic are working on a WoC equivalent.

As for people to play? This is the only downfall I see in trying out KoW. Not a very well establish user base. I'm personally going to give it a shot, looks simple, fun and you can use any miniature source.

Da Boss wrote:WoC could at a pinch represent Orcs, I think.
Marauders - Ax Regiments
Warriors - Great axe regiments
Warriors with different weapons - Morax Regiments

Cavalry can be gore riders, any chariots or warshrines can be chariots/fightwagones. Could work?

If I liked Orcs then it could work =P The only other race I was interested in was Abyssal Dwarves, but I took Elves due to their greater ranged capabilities (something I never had in WHFB, whereas the melee skill and hardiness of ADwarves was apparent in my LM and WoC armies).

Medium of Death wrote:I believe Filbert mentioned (in the Vampire Knights N&R's thread) that Mantic are working on a WoC equivalent.

As for people to play? This is the only downfall I see in trying out KoW. Not a very well establish user base. I'm personally going to give it a shot, looks simple, fun and you can use any miniature source.

That's good news, is the aforementioned thread still near the front page? Or will I have to sift through others (in which case, you wouldn't happen to have a link would you )?

You don't even need the odels to represent anything. as long as they are on the correct sized bases, put a small slip of paper behind then that says what they are, and play that way. even if people say they aren't interested, everything always worth one shot, right?

I don't own the correct sized bases; the only things I have on 20mm are skinks, which are too short to be used as much (not sure about dwarves, but I don't have enough skinks to create a stand-in army); everything else is on a 25mm base or greater.

If anyone is interested, I have created gamesystem and catalog files for KoW in Battlescribe (free list building program). Just download Battlescribe, read up on how data repositories work, then use the link in my sig.