Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just been in another thread, where again it appears a GW Staffer has got it a bit wrong, either deliberately or accidentally straying into pointless upselling.

So as ever I weighed in with my opinion and experience as a former staffer, who understands what the company are aiming to train their staff to do. As such, I'd say the staffer in question has done it accidentally, rather than deliberately.

And then we come to this thread. This is for those of us with genuine sales experience to discuss the various tricks and training that we have picked up over the years. Feel free to weigh in with anything and everything. If you don't have experience in this sort of role, don't feel excluded, just post up what you do and don't like in a sales assistants patter.

Now, before I kick off, do remember this is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree, just do so in a constructive manner.

So, the GW model as I understand it. Essentially, it's about selling your customer their Hobby, whatever that might be. Standard tactics apply here, from probing, leading questions, engaging with them and going from sales mook to a guy they know the name of and (hopefully) are happy to chat to in the future. Not something that comes easily to some, but I found it pretty plain sailing. First up, offer your own first name as an introduction, hoping to obtain your customers. If they don't offer their's in return, just leave it. Keep hinting after it etc, and you'll get their back up. They're clearly a fairly private person, and you have to respect that. This mostly occurs when the person doing the buying isn't the end user. Tailor your approach from here (sorry, this could be a long winded one, but I'll try to keep as succinct as possible). If they are buying for A.N. Other, and you've been in your position for a while, ask for A.N. Others name. In a Hobby like wargaming, there is a very good chance you'll know them, and as such should it be neccessary, be able to advise the buyer as to what they might like. Always follow this up with your returns policy (nice and straight forward with GW!). If buying for themself, just get chatting about their games in general, or their painting techniques.

So far, so good. All nice and friendly. Plus, it's a pretty good way to get them to ask you for advice. Always be up on your own product. Any advice, as a salesperson, should ideally be product linked, whatever that might be. For instance, kits require glue. Don't wait until they're at the till, ask when they're considering their purchase! The rest of it now descends into appropriate responses to their cues. Sometimes, they just want to be left alone to browse. If so, do so. You've done your job so far, nobody could ask for anymore. By all means finish up there with a cheery 'here if you need me' type statement, then simply bog off and busy yourself somewhere else.

Now, particularly with GW, you will typically be more experienced than your average customer. That's just the way it is. They are easy to tackle. Again, once you're established in your store, you'll pretty much know your regulars, and what they're working on. Enquire after that project they started, encourage them to bring it in to show it off! But what of those who are more experienced or skilled than yourself? Well, if you'll excuse the expression, it's time to take a shot in the mouth. For instance, whilst I'm a competent general, my painting skills are pretty much just tabletop standard. What did I used to do? Ask the customer to show me how they do a technique. It gives them a rosey glow most of the time to be able to show off, and you've got yet another bridge established. As for product link, you'd be amazed how many I've done this with have, halfway through the painting lesson, remember 'lordy, I think I've run out of Paint A. Best pick one up'. Sure, it's not a massive upsell, but an upsell it is.

Now, the product link is all important. It varies with each and every customer and each and every purchase. Experience alone will help you here. Don't just blurt stuff out, work it into the conversation. It will be hamfisted at first. Of course it will. But after a while, it becomes second nature. Take the VC White Dwarf. You'll have back issues kicking about, maybe just one or two. So the experienced gamer drops by to pick up a box of Skellies, and isn't aware/expecting new models (yes folks, it does happen!). But how to approach? Simple. If it's a new gamer, they're likely known to you, and as covered earlier this is straight forward. But Mr 'Quick Box O'Skellies'....kick off with 'have you built the Zombie Dragon yet?' or 'I assume you've added the Banshee to your heros'. Cheesey as it might sound, this does work. If they aren't aware, you'll get the 'what now?' expression. Kick off with the White Dwarf link. Show off the models with the rules. Don't try to just add everything at once. That upsell might not happen today, but you might just see them at the weekend, cash in hand, looking for a spangly new Terrorgeist for their army.

Right, I think that's about enough waffliing from myself for now, so over to you guys! What sort of sales techniques do you apply? Is there anything you avoid like the plague?

From the classic sales model: Don't give a chance for a new buyer to walk away. Or a TPB (third party buyer - Mom or Dad).

Mom... which do you think lil' Billy will like more?.... This Tank or that box of Terminators? Do you like playing Armored forces or more foot soldiers.

Simple but you lead a customer to a choice of one of your products versus a "I don't need one today."

Experienced guy? You style the technique while he's painting at a table or whatever. "Hey veteran Jack... I was debating some Noob the other day... which of the armies released over the last couple years is the best...Dark Eldar, BA or Grey Knights? Oh... Dark Eldar? Why do you think so? Which is your favorite unit in that codex? Why is it such a badapple? You ever think about picking them up...my favorite unit is XYZ.

So while not a hard push... you are placing product front and center in the customers mind that YOU have on hand.

Ha. Funnily enough, i returned to the hobby in July. I went to my local GW shop and essentially said, "I am returning to this hobby and want to build an army right quick. What do you recommend" (i.e. I was any typical salespersons' wet dream of a customer).

I left with 1 box of necron warriors... Talk about a missed opportunity on their part.

warpgrenade wrote:Ha. Funnily enough, i returned to the hobby in July. I went to my local GW shop and essentially said, "I am returning to this hobby and want to build an army right quick. What do you recommend" (i.e. I was any typical salespersons' wet dream of a customer).

I left with 1 box of necron warriors... Talk about a missed opportunity on their part.

If it had been my store you'd have left with an empty wallet and armfuls of stuff. How the hell did they not sell you an army if you went in asking for it?

warpgrenade wrote:Ha. Funnily enough, i returned to the hobby in July. I went to my local GW shop and essentially said, "I am returning to this hobby and want to build an army right quick. What do you recommend" (i.e. I was any typical salespersons' wet dream of a customer).

I left with 1 box of necron warriors... Talk about a missed opportunity on their part.

Strangely enough, because of the way many companies train their sales force, the individuals in the sales positions are highly prepared to sell to the uncertain customer that has no idea what he/she wants or if he/she wants anything. However they are extremely unprepared for the person who goes in wanting to buy a large volume of some arbitrary product. The former can be herded and directed towards individual box sets and it only requires a one track mind on sales. However the second (especially in GW hobbies) requires an rather extensive knowledge of not just the model lines but the game as well to be able to make suggestions that make sense. In addition, the person that comes in and goes "I want to buy a whole bunch of stuff for an army" can actually be intimidating for newer sales people. The veterans are drooling, but the newbies kinda get the stage fright thing going on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mikhaila wrote:

warpgrenade wrote:Ha. Funnily enough, i returned to the hobby in July. I went to my local GW shop and essentially said, "I am returning to this hobby and want to build an army right quick. What do you recommend" (i.e. I was any typical salespersons' wet dream of a customer).

I left with 1 box of necron warriors... Talk about a missed opportunity on their part.

If it had been my store you'd have left with an empty wallet and armfuls of stuff. How the hell did they not sell you an army if you went in asking for it?

This too...if you left with money in your wallet they were either really bad or really new to sales

I pretty much agree with everything the OP wrote.

Hobby sales are different than most. I sold swimming pools, hot tubs, and supplies for five seasons. That's a little different because mostly people are fixing a problem rather than looking to spend fun money, but it's a similar technique: build trust, know what their needs are, and recommend stuff that they can actually use.

We even went a step further: for some stuff, we'd recommend household items instead of the pool specific stuff. That way, when we did recommend the branded product, they believed us.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

ToI wrote: In addition, the person that comes in and goes "I want to buy a whole bunch of stuff for an army" can actually be intimidating for newer sales people. The veterans are drooling, but the newbies kinda get the stage fright thing going on.

This is true. Also, not to question that posters story, but often a person that's looking to spend a lot of money will change their mind halfway through.

By far the best are the ones that walk in wanting to spend money, and have a solid idea of what they want, but can be swayed.

mikhaila wrote:

warpgrenade wrote:Ha. Funnily enough, i returned to the hobby in July. I went to my local GW shop and essentially said, "I am returning to this hobby and want to build an army right quick. What do you recommend" (i.e. I was any typical salespersons' wet dream of a customer).

I left with 1 box of necron warriors... Talk about a missed opportunity on their part.

If it had been my store you'd have left with an empty wallet and armfuls of stuff. How the hell did they not sell you an army if you went in asking for it?

He went in for Necrons, is what I'd guess.

No, i liked how necrons looked. however i was leery about how old their codex was. The clerk assured me that 'the new codex will be out in october, so just start building warriors and you will be fine." When i asked how GKs were he said they were 'flavor of the month' and 'everyone is building them'. So i was put off by that.

In retrospect i wish he had really taken the time and felt me out for what type of army i wanted to play. They were dismissive of some of my questions and i felt intimidated asking without having done research. With what i know now, a GK army might have suited me. Who knows; they didn't try to sell it to me.

warpgrenade wrote:No, i liked how necrons looked. however i was leery about how old their codex was. The clerk assured me that 'the new codex will be out in october, so just start building warriors and you will be fine." When i asked how GKs were he said they were 'flavor of the month' and 'everyone is building them'. So i was put off by that.

In retrospect i wish he had really taken the time and felt me out for what type of army i wanted to play. They were dismissive of some of my questions and i felt intimidated asking without having done research. With what i know now, a GK army might have suited me. Who knows; they didn't try to sell it to me.

This leads me to assume they were poorly trained or simply arrogant. There are some questions that a good salesperson will answer but an arrogant one will not and it seems you got the later one.

ToI wrote:

warpgrenade wrote:No, i liked how necrons looked. however i was leery about how old their codex was. The clerk assured me that 'the new codex will be out in october, so just start building warriors and you will be fine." When i asked how GKs were he said they were 'flavor of the month' and 'everyone is building them'. So i was put off by that.

In retrospect i wish he had really taken the time and felt me out for what type of army i wanted to play. They were dismissive of some of my questions and i felt intimidated asking without having done research. With what i know now, a GK army might have suited me. Who knows; they didn't try to sell it to me.

This leads me to assume they were poorly trained or simply arrogant. There are some questions that a good salesperson will answer but an arrogant one will not and it seems you got the later one.

...What?

Warpgrenade asked "how Grey Knights were?" and was told that "they're flavor of the month" and "everyone is building them"--I think that's a pretty honest answer.
The salesguy could also, frankly, have told him that "Oh don't worry about the Necrons Codex being old, they're getting a new one soon so stock up on as many Warriors as you can now!".

Encouraging someone to do an army based upon how the army looks or even if the model range is for sale currently is , imo, far more 'honest' than "Oh yeah Grey Knights are AWESOME! I can sell you everything you possibly need! Everyone's playing them right now, so you know they're good!".

I think that warpgrenade's experience is yet another example of the fact that being a gamer =/= able to run a gaming store.

There's a reason that so many stores fail.

Kanluwen wrote:

ToI wrote:

warpgrenade wrote:No, i liked how necrons looked. however i was leery about how old their codex was. The clerk assured me that 'the new codex will be out in october, so just start building warriors and you will be fine." When i asked how GKs were he said they were 'flavor of the month' and 'everyone is building them'. So i was put off by that.

In retrospect i wish he had really taken the time and felt me out for what type of army i wanted to play. They were dismissive of some of my questions and i felt intimidated asking without having done research. With what i know now, a GK army might have suited me. Who knows; they didn't try to sell it to me.

This leads me to assume they were poorly trained or simply arrogant. There are some questions that a good salesperson will answer but an arrogant one will not and it seems you got the later one.

...What?

Warpgrenade asked "how Grey Knights were?" and was told that "they're flavor of the month" and "everyone is building them"--I think that's a pretty honest answer.
The salesguy could also, frankly, have told him that "Oh don't worry about the Necrons Codex being old, they're getting a new one soon so stock up on as many Warriors as you can now!".

Encouraging someone to do an army based upon how the army looks or even if the model range is for sale currently is , imo, far more 'honest' than "Oh yeah Grey Knights are AWESOME! I can sell you everything you possibly need! Everyone's playing them right now, so you know they're good!".

While I agree that this is a relatively honest answer, the fact that he felt like some of his questions were being brushed off is where I got the arrogance. Also the way you say the "they are the FotM..." statement makes all the difference, but FotM is not really considered a good thing many times so the negative inferences can put someone off buying those. As a sales person you have to balance a fine line between expressing your own views on a product and making the product sound appealing from as many angles as you can. I'm saying they let their personal opinions get in the way of selling to a willing customer which either makes them poorly trained or arrogant...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:I think that warpgrenade's experience is yet another example of the fact that being a gamer =/= able to run a gaming store.

There's a reason that so many stores fail.

this and a thousand times this...

There is a lot of guesswork in this story. Not knowing all of the facts, it's hard to guess what went wrong. Maybe warpgrenade seemed very set on Necrons, and the clerk wanted to help him out. Or maybe the clerk didn't have the time at the moment to really run through every army.

One area where the guy failed was that Warpgrenade didn't walk out feeling excited about his purchase. That's the key in any sales at a premium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, and flavor of the month doesn't change a person's like of it.

My local ice cream shop only stocks pumpkin spice in October and November. It's still my favorite.

Heh, if you'd have mentioned GK's to me, I'd have told you everything I knew about the army, why I liked them, showed you 3 different paint schemes, and talked about the different options, hoping to sell you ALL the options.

Flavor of the Month is a bad description.

GK have an awesome codex, with many options that let you creat versitile armies, and the army plays about the way you'd expect from the fluff. BA and SW have had similar Codices. Easy to sell a new GK army.

I'd have shied away from selling someone Necrons, because I have no idea when they will officially come out, and not idea how they'd play. Saying 'soon and great' would not be telling the truth, and I hate to lie to a customer.

For all the failings of GW staff at times one thing i can never fault them for is knowing there products.

I was at the delarship looking at motorbikes the other day and found that the sales guys could not answer questions. Both myself and my wife were looking at bikes (£15k income for them if they had sold to us). They should have known there products inside out and back to front.

When i worked in sales, about 10 years ago, in an aquatics shop, i didn't know everything about everything, but with 300+ types of fish, along with tanks, dry goods, etc etc, i coulden't but i would spend my lunch reading about the products and read magazines at home. In my current job i have learnt as much as i can about our products and i don't work in sales now. It is totaly unacceptable to me when people don't know the products, and gw staff do.

Sounds like the buyer gave a good many hooks to sell them something. I think "flavor of the month" is as anti-saleman as you can get... short of ignoring the person.

I currently work in IT sales and tbh I have found two key things that help you make a sale:

1) Honesty (the appearance of, or otherwise) - If the customer believes that what you are telling them is the truth, they are much more likely to trust you. For example: 'Yeah you [/i]could buy that Landspeeder but judging by the army list you just recited, maybe you should consider one of these....*pulls out a Predator grinning*....then explain why you think that would work better. You don't need to be condescending about it - "Noob! What were you thinking with that Landspeeder!?" - but if you see an opportunity where the upsell will actually benefit the customer's army [i]and make you more money, go for it! It will surely lead to further sales as well. Conversely, if the swapout leads to a better army but the customer spending less, keep quiet!

2) Customer Empowerment - I think it's every new player's nightmare: you walk in to your FLGS and ask for some Space Marine Orks. Everyone turns to stare at the NOOB. Then they start to chant 'Noob, Noob, Noob', until they drop their money and flee crying in to the night. Empowering the customer is especially important in elitest cerebral persuits such as Warhammer as it the intellectual dominance of one player over another that gives the game it's competative edge. Basically it boils down to: 'If the staff of your FLGS aren't going to pump you up to be the general you know you are capable of being, who the hell else will?

Probably needs more info from Warpgrenade: if he went in, told the guy what he wanted and picked up a Grey Knights box and said "what are these guys like," and the clerk told him they were very popular and most people were playing them, WG could have said "ok, no thanks" and THEN the employee might have said "Yeah, very FOTM" after WG lost interest. Pure speculation on my part, but this is how I would have responded, if I were this employee-putting the army down after the customer says "no" to them, to help suggest to him he made the right choice by saying "no."

If WG really did want Necrons, I find it very honest of the employee to only sell him a box of Warriors for Necrons, instead of trying to sell him something like Pariahs or Immortals. Probably should have convinced him to get a Monolith and Necron Lord too though. However, this suggests two possibilities: 'Crons are coming in October or the GW staffer blew a sale, lied to a customer, and said customer will remember that lie and probably not go back.

I've actually been in this staffer's position. I had a guy come in, telling me he wanted to start CSM or Necrons last summer, and he wasn't sure what to do. Now, the game store I worked in at the time had one sales person knowledgeable in the realm of Warhammer: ME. Thankfully, the guy got me as a salesman. I suggested Chaos as they had more competitive builds (he previously played IG and didn't want a shooty only army) and he wanted to know what their items did. He hadn't played in 5 years. So, I suggested marines and terminators, he bought them AND the book, we ordered him a Daemon Prince and another box of marines and terminators and vindicator, and I opened up his warrior box and pointed to each weapon and gave him stats for it and what it was good against. He left very happy, spent over $100 that day and came back the next week to collect his other models (and drop another $100+). Job well done? Yes. Did I make him happy with what he got? Yes. Did the store prosper? Again, yes. Know your stuff, and give the customer exactly what he wants.

Paul wrote:For all the failings of GW staff at times one thing i can never fault them for is knowing there products. I was looking at bikes the other day and found that the sales guys could not answer questions. Both myself and my wife were looking at bikes (£15k income for them if they had sold to us). They should have known there products inside out and back to front.

When i worked in sales, about 10 years ago, in an aquatics shop, i didn't know everything about everything, but with 300+ types of fish, along with tanks, dry goods, etc etc, i coulden't but i would spend my lunch reading about the products and read magazines at home. In my current job i have learnt as much as i can about our products and i don't work in sales now. It is totaly unacceptable to me when people don't know the products, and gw staff do.

You may want to make that first paragraph a bit clearer. It took me ages to work out you were (presumably) not talking about SM/CSM/Ork Bikes. It initially reads as a very contradictory statement.

Grimtuff wrote:
You may want to make that first paragraph a bit clearer. It took me ages to work out you were (presumably) not talking about SM/CSM/Ork Bikes. It initially reads as a very contradictory statement.

Even gw woulden't charge £7k for a box of minis .


In all seriousness though, i get your point and have updated it.

warpgrenade wrote:Ha. Funnily enough, i returned to the hobby in July. I went to my local GW shop and essentially said, "I am returning to this hobby and want to build an army right quick. What do you recommend" (i.e. I was any typical salespersons' wet dream of a customer).

I left with 1 box of necron warriors... Talk about a missed opportunity on their part.

I consider this to be incredibly unlikely.

But that certainly won't stop a Dakka GW hate thread.

Worglock wrote:

warpgrenade wrote:Ha. Funnily enough, i returned to the hobby in July. I went to my local GW shop and essentially said, "I am returning to this hobby and want to build an army right quick. What do you recommend" (i.e. I was any typical salespersons' wet dream of a customer).

I left with 1 box of necron warriors... Talk about a missed opportunity on their part.

I consider this to be incredibly unlikely.

But that certainly won't stop a Dakka GW hate thread.

Notice how many of us were stating the OP needed more detail, 'cause this seems odd from any business perspective. This didn't become a 'bash GW' thread until you tried to make it one. But feel free to chase shadows.

Worglock wrote:I consider this to be incredibly unlikely.

But that certainly won't stop a Dakka GW hate thread.

Oh good, you found the thread.

I have only briefly worked in sales, and never in the HHHobby. I didn't care for sales much, despite being fairly decent at it, just not my thing.

As a customer, I prefer to come into a store, be greeted and asked if I need anything (I don't expect this if you're swamped, though) and then at that point, left alone. I'll find you if I need something. Thing is, we have no FLGS near me, an I've only been in an actual GWS like, once, for about 20 minutes. It seems like maybe more a place to hang then just to grab something and run, Best Buy style. I might have done this had I returned (ie, lived less then 2 hours away).

In that situation, a good gambit would have been asking me about my armies. I'd have a hard time not talking about my Warhams to someone who didn't want to immediately talk about something else (my wife) and I bet most gamers are this way.

Polonius wrote:This is true. Also, not to question that posters story, but often a person that's looking to spend a lot of money will change their mind halfway through.

What do you base that on?

I'm not disagreeing with you or saying you're wrong or anything - I'm just curious as to why you think that as I've not heard anyone say that before.

Ouze wrote:Oh good, you found the thread.

HA! Glad you said it before I did.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Polonius wrote:This is true. Also, not to question that posters story, but often a person that's looking to spend a lot of money will change their mind halfway through.

What do you base that on?

I'm not disagreeing with you or saying you're wrong or anything - I'm just curious as to why you think that as I've not heard anyone say that before.

Umm, in my experience both as a shopper and a salesman.

People that wander off the street and get fired up about a massive new purchase are sometimes riding a brief spurt of interest. it's literally spur of the moment. After a while, that interest cools, and they decide to save their money.

They're not invested in the product, just on the idea of buying something cool.