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Is it just me or has diversity in the RPG market really dropped off of late?

I only see regular releases for D&D 4E, Pathfinder, and the FFG 40k lines. White Wolf hasn't published a non-PoD book since ... I don't even know, it feels like forever. AEG's Lot5R 4E seems to have been pretty stagnant for a while now, too. I'm seeing games like Trail of Cthulhu and Ashen Stars (both by Robin Laws, both published by Pelgrane) pop up with no real sense that they are going anywhere soon. DC Universe, while quality, is bound to be a rather small family of products and the newest edition of non-DC M&M also seems to be coming out very, very slowly. CthulhuTech and Eclipse Phase haven't seen new releases for ages. There is no relaible news on the third (and final?) boxed set for the Dragon Age RPG. Although I don't follow it very closely (because I don't care for it), even the Savage World lines seem to have frozen up since the deluxe book came out (which wasn't even actually new content).

Am I just not getting my news from the right sources or are we going through something of a dryspell?

If anyone has a non-D&D-centric news source for RPGs generally (that is not rpgnet), please let me know.

I think the RPG market is definitely in a dry-spell, but then again the late 90s was something of a high point for the industry.

A lot of it is just a change in expectations, I think. It used to be that a popular game line, even non TSR, WotC, or White Wolf, would merit a new book every couple months. Now a lot of game lines are publishing around a '1-3 books and done' for a setting or game line.

I hate to bring it up, but file-sharing hasn't helped. I've talked to people who got full runs of an RPG line off a bittorrent site. The entire game line, pretty much. They probably wouldn't have bought all those books, but they might have bought the core books at least.

OTOH, PDF sales are strong, I think, for some companies.

I always try to consider the 'scope' of books as well. For example, a core book is a good choice for a publisher as it has material for anyone interested in the game. Some game lines have background books that are essentially GM-only, and adventures have an even more restricted scope as they're for GMs AND GMs who use pre-written adventures.

White Wolf (as an infamous example) did good by selling a lot of core books and a lot of expansions that players and GMs alike could use.

It might change in the future... THe RPG industry has never been huge, after all.

The only games I see with regularity are 4E and Pathfinder. The next thing I hear about the most would be the 40k line from FFG, but I frequent a Warhammer forum so that isn't a surprise.

See Gametrade magazine for all the news that is news.

It depends on where you look, I guess. I'm playing a campaign in the Dragon Age P&P these days, and playtest for its 3rd Set will begin before x-mas (according to the developer), with Set 1 having sold out and gone into reprint, and more products already announced.

That said, I'd still agree that the P&P market has declined in the past years, simply because other forms of entertainment (especially PC and console gaming) have replaced it, satiating the same target audience with a kind of fun that doesn't require them doing the maths by themselves, leaving their houses, investing an entire evening into a session or even getting along well with a group of likeminded people who just happen to live nearby. Modern day society just "steals" too much time from all the geek's days by having them addicted to browsing the internet, writing stuff in forums, chats and social networks and playing the newest digital games or watching movies on the web.

However, I also think that, for the foreseeable future, P&P cannot die out entirely as there will always be some kind of market for it - because PC and console games are not yet able to create the level of freedom possible in human-controlled environments, and because getting together at a table in real life is a social experience of its own that cannot quite be replicated online. We're past the heyday, but good stuff keeps coming out still.

What other Dragon Age products have been announced? It seems like they would have announced any new product ... on their website ... I know there have been references to "future products" but that's hardly the same thing. Also, the developer said they would say more about playtesting before Christmas not that there would be playtesting before Christmas. (I hope you can tell that I also read that forum ;P)

Set 1 included info about levels 1 -5 while Set 3 did 6 - 10. It had been rumored before that there would be two more sets (logical no?) but the only reliable news about Set 3 is that it will "take players all the way to level 20." That's not too happy a thing, IMO, as it seems to indicate the product is done. Remember, there was no follow-up to Blood in Ferelden on the heels of Set 2.

I don't know if Green Ronin is having trouble with their license or is just an amateurish company unable to properly support a product line. I know that sounds harsh but it's been two years and we still only have levels 1 - 10, one book of three adventures, and a GM screen? The AGE system is very, very good but it's not invincible for that reason. Anyone remember 7th Sea? -- critical acclaim and solid sales did not save that game from AEG. I dunno what's going on inside of Green Ronin but their attitude toward AGE seems lackadaisical to this consumer.

Which is pretty much how I see the entire industry right now, Paizo and FFG aside. Even WotC has sent a lot of mixed signals this year.

Alright, alright - so it's "more about it" rather than an actual playtest. I see this more as insurance, though, as in them planning a playtest for this year but refraining from letting this appear as "set in stone" just in case something goes wrong. I guess we'll see. It certainly is more than what we knew just weeks ago.

As for the future products, though, why would it not be the same thing? It would be different when they would just be thinking about it, but the way that post was worded mentioned that certain content was "already in the works", which (to me) indicates that they are actively setting stuff aside for products beyond Set 3. They also recently hired an additional writer, which they wouldn't do if the line was about to stall.

Yeah, admittedly Dragon Age is a small line with few people writing on it, but that doesn't have to mean it'll dry up anytime soon. Green Ronin is just not as large a company as, say, WotC or FFG, so they likely have a much smaller budget for their various projects. I don't know how the economy works in this sector, but as long as there is demand, I think it will be supported - and with Set 1 having gone out of stock and a reprint being underway, I see this working out.

I'm usually a rather pessimistic person ("expect the worst and plan accordingly"), but from what I read, I think I will allow myself a little optimism here.

As for Set 3 itself - their first plan was to make Set 3 take the levels 11-15 and have 16-20 be in a Set 4, but given the pace of new releases, I think it was actually a rather smart decision to lump it together into a single book and instead focus on other expansions later on. My group is fortunately(?) very slow at leveling up, but it would suck to get stuck at some stage just because the next Set isn't out yet.

That level 20 will be the last does not have to indicate that the product line is done, just that there won't be any more levels after this (which is fine, imo, doesn't have to get too powerful). Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Black Crusade only go up to level 8 and you wouldn't call them "dead".

This gets me thinking, though. The DARPG is intentionally set up to be rather rules-light and allow for a lot of leeway, whereas the fluff seems to be primarily supplied by the computer games and the novels. What other books would we want beyond Set 3? I suppose a regional guide or something might be nice... like an atlas with descriptions of the places not yet described in the "bigger" sources.

Regarding 7th Sea - I don't have any firsthand experience with that system, but the Wikipedia article does mention that sales plummeted considerably after the developer switched systems, and that the game was discontinued due to this. As long as Dragon Age follows the same course it has now, I don't see a good chance for this happening here. In a way, I'm actually glad that it is Green Ronin that does Dragon Age, for a small company like GR seems to operate much closer to the customer than a "giant" like WotC who is not beyond abandoning a product line simply because some exec ordered a focus change.

It's cool to see that someone else from this board is lurking around on the DARPG forum, by the way.

I'm not sure I can accept the "small, customer-friendly company" excuse with Green Ronin. They're not some obscure group of friends working from a garage. FFG only has five years on Green Ronin and to the extent that FFG is a more impressive business it's because it's run by more impressive businessmen/women.

What other books would we want beyond Set 3?

As I mentioned, I have been waiting for a follow-up to Blood in Ferelden since Set 2 was released. Instead, Green Ronin has produced ... nothing! How's that for being customer friendly?


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Lynata wrote:That level 20 will be the last does not have to indicate that the product line is done, just that there won't be any more levels after this (which is fine, imo, doesn't have to get too powerful). Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Black Crusade only go up to level 8 and you wouldn't call them "dead".

Because FFG gives them regular new releases. Green Ronin, by contrast, seems to be rushing through the AGE system. Boxes 1 and 2 each covered 5 levels and now Box 3 will cover 10? What's the rush? Granted, there are not many more (if any) player races but monsters, equipment, classes, specializations, regional flavor, storyhooks, etc, etc, etc would be more than welcome as they have been with Boxes 1 and 2. And why not make room for new, retroactive mechanics? With RPGs, if you're not moving ahead then you're falling behind.

The "rush" is because people were waiting too long between Set 1 and Set 2. It's the right decision. As to how this will affect the remaining contents of Set 3 remains to be seen - though there's not that much more they can add in terms of basic mechanics, I guess.

As for retroactive mechanics ... well, they did that with Set 2. At least I think that stuff like the magic mishaps or even the new backgrounds and talents etc would fall into that category. Other than that I have to say I actually like that the Dragon Age RPG does not attempt to go down the D&D road with dozens of books. You've got your boxed sets, of which even Set 1 is already enough to get a game going. I'm a bit split on that subject, as I like new material like any other player, but I kind of prefer to have the game expand with a slow and steady pace rather than a volume of new books screwing up what came before, which is how I think about the effects of certain FFG supplements.

Don't get me wrong, the long breaks in-between releases grate on me, too. But I still love it too much to be mad about it - and the nature/style of this game makes it easy to fill in any blanks.

Here's hoping we get to hear more about the contents of Set 3 soon!

I thought I heard 7th Sea either did or was trying to do a relaunch in the original system. Only played a one-shot, which was fun. It needs a GM who accepts that players should be doing over-the-top stuff regularly and reward, not punish, attempts to do so.

Maybe dig into some indie RPGs? Sure they are small and you won't pick them up in your local bookstore, but they can be a fun diversion and break from the "standards". For example Atomic Highway was just released as a free PDF. Stars Without Number seems like another one that could be good.
Beyond the "AAA" rated mainstream RPGs there is still some churn and releasing going on. Traveller has seen a revival if that kind of sci-fi is more your thing, etc.

So yeah maybe the major publishers are going through a dryspell, or at least trying to avoid publishing splatbooks "just because". Deciding when a game is "done" is always a tough balance, especially when salaries need to be paid.

I didn't think I only talked about "mainstream" RPGs in the OP ...

Also, Atomic Highway is finally priced at it's value.

Well just ask yourself where anyone actually needs to innovate. Do we need more RPGs? Considering one could make their own rpg by throwing together some mechanics, mediums and fluff.

There are only a few reasons to buy an RPG.

Familiarity - No need explaining home brew rules, or home brew fluff, most people understand Forgotten Realms and D20. So why invent your own Fantasy Fluff and d100 system that you will have to explain to skeptical players?

Mediums - RPGs with interesting Mediums make me want to buy them. I like D&D primarily because of its boardgame like feel. I love tile sets and planning wargameesque encounters, and the rules revolve around this.

Powerful Fluff - W40k, World of Darkness, and Forgotten Realms (IMO) have very powerful ideas behind their setting which stimulate one's mind.

W40K - Its basically Shakespeare's "Fatal Flaw" on meth, and made into a metaphysical truth.
World of Darkness - At least old World of Darkness is an exploration into ethics, in particular, virtue ethics. Very philisophical. Oh and there are Vampires.
Forgotten Realms - I always liked the way ideology was deified in that setting.

So my point is, if you can't come up with a powerful fluff concept, and a powerful medium or mechanic, there is no reason to make your role playing game, because anyone can get on a word processor and home brew a d100 system with dice pools and steam punk setting.

I don't have the time for a full post, but, psst, do you guys know about indie games? gak's been getting real in the last 10 years.

http://theunstore.com/


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woops, ninja'd by boksy. But lookit that link, lotsa crazy stuff in there.

Yeah, I'm not totally keen on playing games like "Panty Explosion."

Also, "indie" RPGs (as defined as stuff sold on that store) are definitionally dead-end. Dogs in the Vineyard, for example, has been around for seven years with zero follow up.

I'm pretty sure the BattleTech RPG is getting a new release soon (other than the rulebook that is). Plus all the various BattleTech supplements of late have included RPG rules along with tabletop rules.

Now that's very interesting. Are they still being published by Catalyst?

EDIT: Or, I have Google, too ... although I am having trouble finding anything on a post-"A Time Of War" RPG. What's the buzz, HBMC?

A Time of War is the new BattleTech RPG. Yes, still Catalyst.

Main link here. The upcoming release is called 'A Time of War Companion', and, as I said, almost every BattleTech book in recent days has included some level of RPG stats.

"My Life With Master" is worth a go as a completely different RPG experience.

Savage Worlds offers a streamlined, skirmish oriented system with a variety of world books.


I would agree with MediumYellow that all possible genres and rule systems might have been covered, in which case it's difficult to expect more innovation.

To put it another way, what are the issues with the current state of the art?

I started to play RPGs in the late 70s when there were very few games around. It was easy to pick holes in the systems. D&D was clunky and strait-jacketed. Traveller had no character experience system. Etc, etc.

Loads of new rules came out to address these and other issues in many creative ways. New genres were produced, ranging from Japanese fantasy to horror to comedy to cyberpunk to superhero to emo. There were also plenty of games based on licensed properties such as Star Wars.

The best supported systems had loads of supplements and scenario packs. Even the smaller systems (e.g. Cyberpunk) generally a few supplements.

It's always been possible for people to write their own material with a bit of imagination. I ran a Traveller campaign for several years based on the Earthsea background.

I don't know if it means anything but at my workplace, a large video game publisher, some of the studio people started an RPG group fairly recently. There is still a core demand for face to face human interaction.

I'd say the level of demand is dwindling, though. The new generation is growing up with a different form of entertainment that is "easier, faster, more seductive". But I will agree that it will probably never be gone entirely, at least not in the foreseeable future.

Big companies that have a lot of "geeks" as employees are a haven for traditional RPGs. My workplace (a large video game developer ) has three different P&P groups (that I know of!) and an internal league of 40k players. Alas, from what I hear it looks much more bleak as soon as you venture outside such hubs and look at the average household. P&P enthusiasts are getting fewer, and the distances between them increase, meaning that it gets more difficult to organize games. I have it much better than many of my friends that I know would be interested, but just don't know anyone sharing this hobby and living nearby.

On the other hand, the internet does allow people to do online groups. Granted, you're sadly missing out on the face to face human interaction, but it's still fun (and you could even argue that people will have it easier sticking to their roles). This is a way to keep the core demand intact as well, though it doesn't really address the question on whether the next generation on kids will be able to "get into it" as easy as we did.

Or I'm just pessimistic in my perception that the world keeps getting dumber.

KK, I really think that point is overly reductive. Every year I see innovation but I don't see many companies giving adequate support to that innovation. Dragon Age is really my favorite example here. This laggardly pace is not a market factor. The game is selling well enough to go into reprint, which is a big deal for a non-D&D-clone (just ask FFG). The issue is not there being less and less PnPers. The issue is not that everything worth doing has already been done (a particularly sad view). The issue is something (and I don't know what that is) regarding the publisher. This has also been that kind of year for WotC regarding D&D.

I have to say, regarding the products of the late eighties through early nineties, the stuff has not held up so well compared to newer products. Innovation does exist in the RPG world; or rather, let me say that it has existed even very recently. Please take a look at Robin Laws's Trail of Cthulhu, for example.

Finally, the idea that anyone can just write there own stuff is kind of silly. Should we also sculpt and cast our own miniatures lines? I am positive, after being on Dakka these past years, that some folks out there have the skill to do so. But it's a rare few. Writing is also a skill, even writing good RPG material. And for those who do have the skill (we'll not even get into talent) there is also a question of time. There is a reason why RPGs can be sold in the first place, same as a meal. Yeah, I can make my own gourmet dishes but oftentimes, if I can afford it, I prefer to let someone else do the cooking and just enjoy the meal -- especially when they're a better chef than me (which I'm not ashamed to say is often).


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I guess I should have titled this thread "Sustained/Sustainable Diversity in the RPG Market."

Homebrew writing typically is not equivalent in quality to that of professional writing. However before releasing a source book, a company needs to think to itself why someone couldn't dig through old editions of hundreds of other rule systems, and his own imagination for creating the game he wants.

A company has to compete with its old products, and the products of other people's, and the player's imagination. If it can't outdo those, there isn't any need to produce a book.

Balance wrote:It needs a GM who accepts that players should be doing over-the-top stuff regularly and reward, not punish, attempts to do so.

So, any GM that's run a spot of PARANOIA should suffice?

robertsjf wrote:

Balance wrote:It needs a GM who accepts that players should be doing over-the-top stuff regularly and reward, not punish, attempts to do so.

So, any GM that's run a spot of PARANOIA should suffice?

Paranoia encourages Punishing players, as long as it's done humorously, in my experience...

Balance wrote:I hate to bring it up, but file-sharing hasn't helped. I've talked to people who got full runs of an RPG line off a bittorrent site. The entire game line, pretty much. They probably wouldn't have bought all those books, but they might have bought the core books at least.

OTOH, PDF sales are strong, I think, for some companies.

I don't like to acquire PDFs of these that I don't already own *unless* it is something that just isn't made anymore. I have large collections of the games I run regularly in PDF, like Shadowrun, but already own every Shadowrun book ever printed except for the latest 4th edition stuff which I don't use at all. I have also picked up PDFs for the old AD&D lines and the like, but most of them I bought before WotC took them down from the online stores. I really like being able to cart my entire game library with me on my netbook or Laptop instead of having to bring along a suitcase full of books for the game I am running. Saves wear and tear on the body from not having the carry all of those books everywhere!

PDFs do proliferate through bitorrent and usenet, though. So one person downloads them legally and then pretty much then makes them available for everyone who wants them. I have filled in holes in my D&D and AD&D download library on Usenet after WotC stopped selling them anywhere. Kind of hard to complain if people share after the company takes away all legal access to the item in question. For new stuff and currently available stuff I happily go out and buy PDFs to use from the various online game PDF sellers, like DriveThruRpg. Many smaller game companies are only able to maintain a steady flow of products by dropping them into the market electronically. They can spend their money on creation and the final product itself instead of publishing actual books.

I do agree that PDFs are a mixed bag for businesses. I can see the anger at people grabbing free copies of currently in print titles, but at the same time plenty of people do legally buy downloads as well.

Skriker