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We started an interesting discussion on the AWC site about the new Apoc 2 book.

On page 3 it states "these are official units suitable for standard sized games of Warhammer 40,000 as well."

This is in reference to the units that are 'stamped' Warhammer 40,000.

On page 2 in the credits it says the book is published in Great Britain in 2011 by Forge World, Games Workshop, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS.

It goes on to state:

copyright Games Workshop Limited 2011, etc...



My question is why isn't these units official. The book says they are. The book is published by Games Workshop.

I am talking about the units that are stamped Warhammer 40,000.

Those units have been downgraded since the last edition. The idea of FW units being over powered or not playtested makes them no different that codex units that people complain about.

I don't get it. Everything in this book tells you it is just like another 40k codex that lists units to use in 40k. It distinguishes between Apoc units and 40k units.

We allow White Dwarf units which are listed as Chapter Approved in WD to be used in tourneys. How is this different?

The perception is still there that anything published by Forge World is not available in all stores and thus not equally accessible to all players. Also that while units in 40k codices are not all equally balanced, that the only black and white solution to that is to ban whole codices. With FW, it's generally only "extra" units getting the axe, not whole armies.

Further, the history with FW is that a large percentage of the units are overpriced and thus not attractive to use in a tourney list in the first place, but a small percentage are substantially underpriced, thus creating larger imbalances than already exist with the regular codices.

People fear what they don't know.

Something being tourney legal is completely up to the person running the tournament. You can question and discuss why all you want, but ultimately, it's up to individual tournament organizers to decide what is legal in their event.

This gets brought up very often and the bottom line remains the same:

Any tournament will decide for themselves what is legal. If a TO wanted to ban GK, they could because it's their event. You can't bend a TO's arm against their own rules with some kind of trump card sentence printed in the book.

Likewise outside of tournament play, you can't just go up to another play and say "BAM you HAVE to let me use Apoc 2 units!". You can't force people to playing a game, some players may simply not like every playing against Eldar and refuse to play people that use that army. In the same thought some players are opposed to using FW rules, others may be open to it. Only way to find out is to ask.

I guess OP was referring to "GW hosted" tournaments such as 'ard Boyz and throne of skulls.

This book is similar to all the other FW books. While it may say "useable in 40k" they mean it in a more general way of "Here's how this unit fits into the force org. " vs. "This unit is approved and legal in all tournament and you don't have to ask".

This arguement pops up all the time. There will be the usual group screaming for total IA approval, and the usual group saying it's never going to be allowed. The arguement will go many pages.

In the end it comes down to the TO, and what he is comfortable allowing.

Me, I'm not allowing anything from the book yet, as I haven't had time to read it myself to even begin making a decision. In the past though, we've allowed FW models to be used in some tournaments at my stores. General rule is you must have the FW model and own the book, not a scratch built version.


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Kouzuki wrote:I guess OP was referring to "GW hosted" tournaments such as 'ard Boyz and throne of skulls.

'Ardboyz won't be seeing it, as it's sponsored by US Trade Sales, and focuses on FLGS. 99% of which don't sell the IA books.

TOS could, but doesn't.

Everything is tourney legal, including homebrew codecies... BUT, its up to your tournament organizer to decide if its allowed or not. Technically, a TO can decide that a specific army is banned, etc. and as of yet, most TO's are saying no to FW.

Just to kill the thread proper gentlemen I give you the exact quote from the book in question. Emphasis in bold is mine.

As with all our models these should be considered 'official', but owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start.

/End thread

And as others have stated - with regards to tournaments all decisions regarding legality and what is allowed comes down to the Tournament Organiser. There is no magic rule in any book anywhere that will override their decision.

Hmmmm..

Since the Sisters of Battle rules are not widely available at any store owning to the fact they were published in a short lived magazine artcile, then they hold the same weight as a hardcover book I bought at the GW store in Geneva Illinois?

I don't understand the difference between a WD army list and the FW one.

In my mind what seperates this Apoc 2 rule set from the past ones is the 40K stamp on certain units (none of them with structure points or D weapons). The publishers clearly says Games Workshop.

Everyone is right to say the TO can do what they want, however I have never seen a tourney ban Eldar. Most tourney rules follw a herd mentality.

Adepticon TT rules have always allowed FW units and the one time they tried with the championships there was dismay because of unit availability and perceived rules imbalances.

I don't understand the problem with unit availability since I have yet to see a GW Thunderwolf Cav. model or a Tervigon, but I see them all the time at tourneys.

I allow FW in fantasy and 40k events.. and in general they've been allowed for over a year at Legions events

Despite this, 1 person has ever brought anything so I've pretty much just determined that its a huge waste of time to even bother worrying about FW units

There are a few problem units such as assault ramp dreadnought drop pods and the new contemptor mortis. But other than that, it's all underpowered or just flavorful

DarthDiggler wrote:Hmmmm..

Since the Sisters of Battle rules are not widely available at any store owning to the fact they were published in a short lived magazine artcile, then they hold the same weight as a hardcover book I bought at the GW store in Geneva Illinois?

I don't understand the difference between a WD army list and the FW one.

In my mind what seperates this Apoc 2 rule set from the past ones is the 40K stamp on certain units (none of them with structure points or D weapons). The publishers clearly says Games Workshop.

Everyone is right to say the TO can do what they want, however I have never seen a tourney ban Eldar. Most tourney rules follw a herd mentality.

Adepticon TT rules have always allowed FW units and the one time they tried with the championships there was dismay because of unit availability and perceived rules imbalances.

I don't understand the problem with unit availability since I have yet to see a GW Thunderwolf Cav. model or a Tervigon, but I see them all the time at tourneys.

You won't find a bigger proponent of allowing IA rules in tournaments then me, however there is nothing in this latest IA book that changes anything about the rules.

All the previous books said that certain units were allowable in standard games of 40K. Adding a '40K' stamp to the page doesn't change anything...they were just as 'official' before as they are now. Yes, the books are published by Games Workshop and yes they say that they are 'official' but they also say that you should ask your opponent ahead of time to make sure they're okay with playing with the IA rules, and that alone still gives TOs enough justification to not allow them in their tournaments.

Games Workshop is never, ever going to tell people what is or isn't allowed in a tournament, because TOs can choose to allow anything they'd like, so as long as the perception is that Imperial Armor rules shouldn't be allowed in tournaments by most players and TOs then that is how they will continue to be handled by most tournaments.

The best thing you can possibly do is start to run your own tournaments and allow IA rules in them to help start to get the landscape changed.

Mannahnin wrote:The perception is still there that anything published by Forge World is not available in all stores and thus not equally accessible to all players.

That could be said of anything that is 'mail order only'. If only it were the case that GW stores actually carried their full lines.

Secondary question:

Are we discussing the use of FW models using IA rules in tournament?

or

Allowing the use of IA rules in tournaments?

I'll be blunt, that I favor the first. I expect that as soon as I allow Dreadpods with assault ramps into tournaments, I'll see 5 guys show up with conversions, and no one with the actual FW model. I change tournament rules a lot faster when people have the appropriate models.

Case in point: One player in the area hammers me continually about the new Warhammer Forge book, and why I won't allow the list. He has no FW models, no painted models. Just a bunch of old unpainted Chaos Dwarfs and keeps hammering me on why he can't use them along with the new list. I'd be inclined to allow it if he painted the army, but he also doesn't want anyone to tell him to paint.) Meanwhile, a player 2 hours away is busily painting up his FW army, and I'll probably allow him to use the list in our summer GT. Partly because of the effort he's put in, and partly because by that time I'll know the rules myself, and we can talk over any problem areas and make sure it won't cause problems for the other players.

mikhaila wrote:Secondary question:

Are we discussing the use of FW models using IA rules in tournament?

or

Allowing the use of IA rules in tournaments?

I'll be blunt, that I favor the first. I expect that as soon as I allow Dreadpods with assault ramps into tournaments, I'll see 5 guys show up with conversions, and no one with the actual FW model. I change tournament rules a lot faster when people have the appropriate models.

Case in point: One player in the area hammers me continually about the new Warhammer Forge book, and why I won't allow the list. He has no FW models, no painted models. Just a bunch of old unpainted Chaos Dwarfs and keeps hammering me on why he can't use them along with the new list. I'd be inclined to allow it if he painted the army, but he also doesn't want anyone to tell him to paint.) Meanwhile, a player 2 hours away is busily painting up his FW army, and I'll probably allow him to use the list in our summer GT. Partly because of the effort he's put in, and partly because by that time I'll know the rules myself, and we can talk over any problem areas and make sure it won't cause problems for the other players.

Does the Chaos Dwarf "player" actually have the book or is he trying to use it with a pirated copy? As for the drop pods, I think you'd actually be a lucky TO if they showed up with actual conversions as opposed to big plastic cups with bits added or just regular drop pods with the inside consoles not glued in.

As Yak said, the stamp doesn't mean anything more than previous half hearted disclaimers since the books also says to ask your opponent first. The stamp just means that the unit is meant for a normal 40k scale game as opposed to larger apoc games. I don't think we'll have a real answer to this question unless GW puts a blurb IN THE CORE RULES of 6th edition about certain Forge World rules being ok for use in normal 40k games without prior consent. Until that happens, I will insist on players asking me first with full disclosure (and allowing it in the vast majority of cases if they do ask). I suspect that a change overall in the tourney setting regarding this issue would require that kind of core rule change as well. In the end, TO will make whatever decision they want (probably based off of their opinion as a 40k player in most cases) until that day.

warboss wrote:Does the Chaos Dwarf "player" actually have the book or is he trying to use it with a pirated copy?

Oh, he bought the book. Paid extra to get one of the ones sold at FW open day. Immediately started yelling for me to allow it as it was 'official'. Our first arguement revolved around the fact that I woudln't even have my copy for another month.)

The real funny thing is, I'm running a Throne of Chaos campaign weekend. Non-tourney hobby event, and older model CD are allowed as long as they are painted and based nicely. He immediately thumbed his nose at it, as he doesn't want to paint.)

Several 40k players doing the same thing:
"I don't understand why I can't use an Ares LR and Dreadpods!" "

Hmm, do you own an Ares Landraider and Dreadnaught Drop pods from FW?"

"What the hell does that have to do with using the rules?"

mikhaila wrote:Secondary question:

Are we discussing the use of FW models using IA rules in tournament?

I meant this when I started the thread.

The FW 40k stamp says to get opponents permission because the rules might be unfamiliar. How is this any different than playing against Necrons if you don't have the necron codex? Don't tell me the Necron codex is available at the store because
1. thats where I bought the Apoc 2 book and
2. the Sisters of Battle rules are not available at that store.

Also GW (aka Jervis) hates tourneys. Jervis has said repeatedly he is not in favor of them, doesn't understand them and will not go out of his way to support them. Why would he then make a rule of what units to allow in that tourney?

One more thing. The Adepticon Team Tournament, the largest 40k tournament by participation in the world, has allowed FW models with IA units all along. I don't ever having to ask my tournament opponent their permission before a game in the TT before.

Edit: Ha, almost fell into this threadtrap again.

Then remembered Mr. Diggler has been arguing this non stop for a couple of years, and his favorite line is "I don't understand why...."
Nothing I say will change that. It's not a discussion, it's a Crusade.)

Carry on with "This thread again?!"

Since nowhere in any current codex does it say "ask opponent's permission before using" you can clearly use whatever you want from any codex. Regarding IA 2, since it does say use opponent's permission, fine, bring whatever you want to any tournament and if the opponent says no, you simply are short that many points....and look like an idiot.

But in all honesty, if its not in the codex I don't see why you should be guaranteed the right to use a specific model in any particular game.

I don't really understand your gripe, Darth. Are you trying to say that "since it says it is 'basically' an approved unit and official I should be able to use it in every game" ?

Because that is sort of ignoring the whole "you should ask your opponent's permission first" thing (regardless of why you should ask your opponents permission it still says it) and are implying that people should be obligated to give you permission to use such a unit because hey, "its official".

I just wanted to say that in a standard tournament, unless mentioned beforehand, people are only obligated to play against models that are in an official codex or have been officially amended to be a part of a codex (like the night spinner). IA 2 is neither an official codex (though the units are said to be official 40k units but that means something entirely different than being an official unit entry for that codex to be used regardless of opponent's permission or not) nor does it obligate any opponent to allow you to use said units.

Anyway, I take it that you probably are not open to discussion, though, since Mlkhalla has observed your going on about this for quite some time as well as your inherently biased title "it says it is" when IA2 no where says anything about being tournament legal nor implies such a thing...

mikhaila wrote:Edit: Ha, almost fell into this threadtrap again.

Then remembered Mr. Diggler has been arguing this non stop for a couple of years, and his favorite line is "I don't understand why...."
Nothing I say will change that. It's not a discussion, it's a Crusade.)

Carry on with "This thread again?!"

Wow are you serious? I went through 46 pages of my posts over 5 years and I haven't found anywhere where I have talked about this topic. My search skills are inferior to most can you please direct me to my previous posts on this subject? You dismiss me as a crusader out of hand and then make a back handed comment to shut me up and discredit my opinion to others.. Please correct me. Where have I brought this up before? Non stop. Really, really.

Your the guy who in this very post says the Apoc 2 book is "similar to all the other FW books." and then in the same post you say "I haven't had time to read it myself" .

That's rich.




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mortetvie wrote:Anyway, I take it that you probably are not open to discussion, though, since Mlkhalla has observed your going on about this for quite some time as well as your inherently biased title "it says it is" when IA2 no where says anything about being tournament legal nor implies such a thing...

And this is why Mikhalla is full of it. His personal attack on me and my credibility will drive the discussion into the ground. I want to have a discussion about it. Yak is in favor if it. Hank Edley is in favor if it at Adepticon. We have a poll running at AWC on the topic and it is 50/50. I wanted to hear a broader perspective on a topic I do not crusade over. Mikhalla is completely wrong on this.

Interestingly enough when I ran the Adepticon Gladiator I was against having FW units, but Mikhalla doesn't know anything about that. he paints with a broad, ignorant brush.

I'm pissed about this because of the way that comment has the potential to drive discussion into the ground and discredit and defame my opinion going forward.

Is Apoc 2 available in any FLGS? Because I know my FLGS can still get the SOB white dwarf's in if they need them however he can't get Apoc 2 in to sell to me. If it's not then I wouldn't allow it as a TO in my event due to availability.

On top of that why would I, as a FLGS, want to promote a line of models you can't get from me and that by suggesting to people on limited budgets will affect my sales?

Personally I'd be cool with them if the person has the actual models though you'd see more of what happens in fantasy with the banning of certain units (read original deathwind pods and the IG termite drill). But I can't see why any event below a GT would allow them and since they are a polarizing force I can't see any event except the truly huge from ever allowing them as it could impact attendance poorly.

DarthDiggler wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Edit: Ha, almost fell into this threadtrap again.

Then remembered Mr. Diggler has been arguing this non stop for a couple of years, and his favorite line is "I don't understand why...."
Nothing I say will change that. It's not a discussion, it's a Crusade.)

Carry on with "This thread again?!"

Wow are you serious? I went through 46 pages of my posts over 5 years and I haven't found anywhere where I have talked about this topic. My search skills are inferior to most can you please direct me to my previous posts on this subject? You dismiss me as a crusader out of hand and then make a back handed comment to shut me up and discredit my opinion to others.. Please correct me. Where have I brought this up before? Non stop. Really, really.

Your the guy who in this very post says the Apoc 2 book is "similar to all the other FW books." and then in the same post you say "I haven't had time to read it myself" .

That's rich.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

mortetvie wrote:Anyway, I take it that you probably are not open to discussion, though, since Mlkhalla has observed your going on about this for quite some time as well as your inherently biased title "it says it is" when IA2 no where says anything about being tournament legal nor implies such a thing...

And this is why Mikhalla is full of it. His personal attack on me and my credibility will drive the discussion into the ground. I want to have a discussion about it. Yak is in favor if it. Hank Edley is in favor if it at Adepticon. We have a poll running at AWC on the topic and it is 50/50. I wanted to hear a broader perspective on a topic I do not crusade over. Mikhalla is completely wrong on this.

Interestingly enough when I ran the Adepticon Gladiator I was against having FW units, but Mikhalla doesn't know anything about that. he paints with a broad, ignorant brush.

I'm pissed about this because of the way that comment has the potential to drive discussion into the ground and discredit and defame my opinion going forward.

Hey, apologies if you don't comment on this a lot. My memory seemed to indicate you did, and I just looked at your posts and saw this one. It had some of the same old arguements in this thread. I probably just jumped to the conclusion that you've brought it up in between. If I'm wrong, apologies. If you really want to take it as a personal attack, go ahead, yours reply is so polite that I figure we're event.) And nothing stops discussion on Dakka.)

DarthDiggler wrote:This must be a regional thing. In the Chicagoland area we have 15-16 tournaments a year and all but one organizer allows forgeworld models/rules and IA units. We have been doing this for as long as I can remember, even before the Bunker was built in Downers Grove.

As for Adepticon, no matter what is said on our boards I am confident Forgeworld and IA materials will always be allowed. Mass/Structure points and flyers have always been an exception (though I never knew why).

Accessability isn't a good arguement because Drop Pods are not easy to get and they are very common. The rules being hard to get is not a good arguement because what newbie can lug around every codex ever made just in case they play them. Overcost/undercosted units is not a good arguement because their are those in the regular codex's.

FW does add variety and spice and as a veteran gamer I find myself looking more and more into playing against armies I have not seen a dozen times over.

mikhaila wrote:

warboss wrote:Does the Chaos Dwarf "player" actually have the book or is he trying to use it with a pirated copy?

Oh, he bought the book. Paid extra to get one of the ones sold at FW open day. Immediately started yelling for me to allow it as it was 'official'. Our first arguement revolved around the fact that I woudln't even have my copy for another month.)

The real funny thing is, I'm running a Throne of Chaos campaign weekend. Non-tourney hobby event, and older model CD are allowed as long as they are painted and based nicely. He immediately thumbed his nose at it, as he doesn't want to paint.)

Several 40k players doing the same thing:
"I don't understand why I can't use an Ares LR and Dreadpods!" "

Hmm, do you own an Ares Landraider and Dreadnaught Drop pods from FW?"

"What the hell does that have to do with using the rules?"

Totally agree mike, but, for example. I love the FW eldar stuff. But I am not going to buy them and spend the time painting them, unless I can reasonably expect to be able to play them in events.

So you end up with a cycle "I am not going to bother discussing this unless you own the models" VS. "I am not going to buy the models until I know I can play them."

So for example Mike, if I were to get a Malanthrope painted in time for St. Valentine's massacre, would I be able to play it?

I'm against it. We're all already in an expensive hobby, and FW models are even worse. You'll have a case of the haves and have-nots. Even IF the units, in general, are on par or even a bit underpowered compared to codex units, a couple of overpowered units to tip the scales will really change how people look at them as a whole. Once the perception becomes "If you don't have FW, don't bother going", tourney attendance will suffer drastically, affecting the stores sales.

It's like Magic Type 1 tourneys. If you don't have the expensive, powerful cards, don't bother. Sure you CAN win without them, but it's tough, very tough.

Um, if you want a discussion, then why not address the meat of my initial post? It still stands that just because IA says "official but ask opponent's permission to use" does not mean you can take it to any game any tournament any time, nor should you necessarily be able to.

Like I said, I don't really get what you are going on about since it really comes down to will the TO or your opponent allow it or not? Weather the TO or opponent should or shouldn't is moot and not really the issue right?

I mean you initially set up the discussion with a logical fallacy in saying "why aren't these units official? The book says they are!" in the sense that you are perhaps using the word "official" in a different way that the book is using it and are then possibly starting off from a false and assumed premise. But hey, what does logic have to do with discussion?

DarthDiggler wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Edit: Ha, almost fell into this threadtrap again.

Then remembered Mr. Diggler has been arguing this non stop for a couple of years, and his favorite line is "I don't understand why...."
Nothing I say will change that. It's not a discussion, it's a Crusade.)

Carry on with "This thread again?!"

Wow are you serious? I went through 46 pages of my posts over 5 years and I haven't found anywhere where I have talked about this topic. My search skills are inferior to most can you please direct me to my previous posts on this subject? You dismiss me as a crusader out of hand and then make a back handed comment to shut me up and discredit my opinion to others.. Please correct me.

Click on your name to get to your profile, click on search through diggler's posts, enter in forgeworld in the search field. You've chimed in a couple times on both sides... so the important thing is that you're both wrong and I'm right!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=search&action=search&search_keywords=forgeworld&match_type=all&search_author=782&search_titles=0&forum=&daterange=-1&daterange2=0&sort_by=time&sort_dir=DESC&resulttype=1

keithb wrote:So for example Mike, if I were to get a Malanthrope painted in time for St. Valentine's massacre, would I be able to play it?

Sure, but Malanthropes are like gum, you have to bring enough for everyone. )

On a more serious note, SVDM is already set up, but if people were up for it, it's quite possible we could allow IA for the summer GT. I haven't even begun to figure out what I'm doing for that.)

warboss wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Edit: Ha, almost fell into this threadtrap again.

Then remembered Mr. Diggler has been arguing this non stop for a couple of years, and his favorite line is "I don't understand why...."
Nothing I say will change that. It's not a discussion, it's a Crusade.)

Carry on with "This thread again?!"

Wow are you serious? I went through 46 pages of my posts over 5 years and I haven't found anywhere where I have talked about this topic. My search skills are inferior to most can you please direct me to my previous posts on this subject? You dismiss me as a crusader out of hand and then make a back handed comment to shut me up and discredit my opinion to others.. Please correct me.

Click on your name to get to your profile, click on search through diggler's posts, enter in forgeworld in the search field. You've chimed in a couple times on both sides... so the important thing is that you're both wrong and I'm right!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=search&action=search&search_keywords=forgeworld&match_type=all&search_author=782&search_titles=0&forum=&daterange=-1&daterange2=0&sort_by=time&sort_dir=DESC&resulttype=1

The effort you went through to find this information has warmed
the cockles of my librarian heart. Well done!

Hulksmash wrote:Is Apoc 2 available in any FLGS? Because I know my FLGS can still get the SOB white dwarf's in if they need them however he can't get Apoc 2 in to sell to me. If it's not then I wouldn't allow it as a TO in my event due to availability.

On top of that why would I, as a FLGS, want to promote a line of models you can't get from me and that by suggesting to people on limited budgets will affect my sales?

Personally I'd be cool with them if the person has the actual models though you'd see more of what happens in fantasy with the banning of certain units (read original deathwind pods and the IG termite drill). But I can't see why any event below a GT would allow them and since they are a polarizing force I can't see any event except the truly huge from ever allowing them as it could impact attendance poorly.

Any FLGS that orders thru GW can get the Forgeworld books. As for the SOB white Dwarfs can you please let me know what store can still get them. They sold out and I have not been able to get them even though I have a subscription. (Just need the first one)

On other news
We in the Las Vegas Gamers Club have always allowed the use of Forgeworld stuff in tournaments and never had a problem.
The FLGS are now allowing them and still no problems have arisen.
At one point GWUS even allowed Forgeworld stuff at GT's (like 10+ years ago)but changed their mind for what ever reason.

mikhaila wrote:Secondary question:

Are we discussing the use of FW models using IA rules in tournament?

or

Allowing the use of IA rules in tournaments?

I'll be blunt, that I favor the first. I expect that as soon as I allow Dreadpods with assault ramps into tournaments, I'll see 5 guys show up with conversions, and no one with the actual FW model. I change tournament rules a lot faster when people have the appropriate models.

Case in point: One player in the area hammers me continually about the new Warhammer Forge book, and why I won't allow the list. He has no FW models, no painted models. Just a bunch of old unpainted Chaos Dwarfs and keeps hammering me on why he can't use them along with the new list. I'd be inclined to allow it if he painted the army, but he also doesn't want anyone to tell him to paint.) Meanwhile, a player 2 hours away is busily painting up his FW army, and I'll probably allow him to use the list in our summer GT. Partly because of the effort he's put in, and partly because by that time I'll know the rules myself, and we can talk over any problem areas and make sure it won't cause problems for the other players.

I really believe Tournament Organizers shouldn't be afraid to make guidelines for their event to allow most, if not all, IA rules to be used.

Because frankly, 98% of the IA rules are perfectly fine or even under-powered. So I personally feel if you have players that gripe against one or two IA units, just disallow them and allow the rest of the rules to be used.

There's really no sense in throwing the baby out with the bath water. There are so many really cool FW models that don't really have a good representation in the main codex and their are so many cool little IA units that aren't overpowered, but really give some cool flexibility to the army.

A great example is the Tau Tetra (the Piranha-esque skimmer that is basically just a mobile markerlight). The fact that people are 'afraid' to buy FW models because they can't use them in so many events is frankly tragic...both because cool models aren't getting seen on the table, and there's less interesting variety in the game because of a bit of fear-mongering.

So yes, I think you should allow IA rules in your events, and don't be afraid to enforce the rule that players must use the actual FW models to use those rules...if a few people complain, just tell them 'tough'. The point IMHO, is to allow people to use their cool models.

And honestly, the amount of truly 'broken' IA units is really pretty low now. The Dread drop pod has been nerfed to the point where I do think it is pretty darn balanced. The Land Raider Achillies is truly annoying to fight against, but frankly it is so many points that I don't think it is honestly unbalancing. So really, the Imperial Guard Hades Breaching Drill is the only really, really bad IA unit left in the 'standard' IA 40K units.

So I really think its worth banning the Hades breaching Drill or even the Achillies (or the Lucius Drop Pod if you want) and then allowing the rest of the IA units in your event.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I meant this when I started the thread.

The FW 40k stamp says to get opponents permission because the rules might be unfamiliar. How is this any different than playing against Necrons if you don't have the necron codex? Don't tell me the Necron codex is available at the store because
1. thats where I bought the Apoc 2 book and
2. the Sisters of Battle rules are not available at that store.

Also GW (aka Jervis) hates tourneys. Jervis has said repeatedly he is not in favor of them, doesn't understand them and will not go out of his way to support them. Why would he then make a rule of what units to allow in that tourney?

One more thing. The Adepticon Team Tournament, the largest 40k tournament by participation in the world, has allowed FW models with IA units all along. I don't ever having to ask my tournament opponent their permission before a game in the TT before.

That's a common fallacy. Jervis doesn't hate tournaments. He started the first grand tournaments and he's been running the Throne of Skulls tournaments. If he hates anything (and we have no public record of him saying anything like this), its probably some of the win-at-all-costs attitude and cookie-cutter lists that tournaments sometimes tend to bring out from players.

But just because I'm for Imperial Armor rules and Hank likes them too, doesn't change how 'official' or 'unofficial' the IA rules are. The reason you don't need to ask permission to use your IA units in the Adepticon Team Tournament is because the tournament officially allows those rules.

A tournament can allow or disallow any and all rules, that's the deal with a tournament. For example, I've played in non-MEQ tournaments before where no MEQ armies were allowed. That's obviously an extreme example, but the point stands. TOs can use what they want and they can ban what they want.

The fact is, most TOs feel like they don't want to allow IA rules, so they don't. It doesn't matter what is 'official' or not.

The only things you can do to rectify this are:

1) Run your own events and allow IA rules.
2) Keep pestering any other local TOs to allow IA rules in events.

If enough people start doing this, then the perception that IA rules are somehow crazy broken will finally start to fade (hopefully).

Lormax wrote:I'm against it. We're all already in an expensive hobby, and FW models are even worse. You'll have a case of the haves and have-nots. Even IF the units, in general, are on par or even a bit underpowered compared to codex units, a couple of overpowered units to tip the scales will really change how people look at them as a whole. Once the perception becomes "If you don't have FW, don't bother going", tourney attendance will suffer drastically, affecting the stores sales.

It's like Magic Type 1 tourneys. If you don't have the expensive, powerful cards, don't bother. Sure you CAN win without them, but it's tough, very tough.

That problem already exists as part of the game. Let's imagine if Sisters of Battle were crazy-powerful...well they are an EXTREMELY expensive army to collect (because they're mainly metal). So should the SoB be banned from tournaments because its not 'fair' for one army to be that much more expensive to collect?

The same is true for horde vs. elite armies. It is obviously much cheaper to collect an elite army, so let's imagine what if the horde armies were the most powerful ones in the game. Again, should those armies be 'banned' from tournaments because they were more powerful but so much more expensive than other armies to collect?

Its just a slippery slope that you've chosen to plant your flag and say 'these are not allowed'.

And look, if you're actually afraid of the 'have vs. have-not' factor, then just allow IA rules to be used with converted models. I don't personally care for this solution (as I like seeing actual FW models on the table), but it certainly gets rid of the cost factor.

The reality is, NO Imperial Armor rule anywhere is half as sick as what is found in most of the Grey Knight codex.

That's the fact that most people don't consider. They get their butt kicked by an army with IA units in it and they think that its not 'fair' and that the IA rules aren't balanced. But when you get your butt kicked by 3 Grey Knight Psy-rifleman Ven Dreads, Psychotroke Grenades, Purifiers casting 'Cleansing Flame', etc, and you just have to suck it up and accept 'that's how the game is'.

While some of the IA rules are pretty stupid, the fact is there are codex rules that are waaaay more stupid, and that's the truth. So to me, banning IA rules for that reason just seems nonsensical.