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malfred wrote:The effort you went through to find this information has warmed
the cockles of my librarian heart. Well done!

Thanks! While I understand that the comment is about clams, I still feel like I should take a shower after rubbing your cockles.

A big part of the hesitation I've seen (besides the perception that the rules are overpowered) is that people simply aren't familiar with them and don't generally have easy access to them (easy as defined by the opponent having a copy in hand or the store having a "store copy" available for perusal). While I am personally familiar with most (but not all) of them alot of other opponents are not and they don't want to be bothered with a rare army list or entry that they generally have no way of double checking.

Every opponent I've played in the past year has had their physical codex handy. Only one person out of 5 or 6 who asked me to use forgeworld rules in that time has actually had the book handy to reference. Of the others, one had the abbreviated rules in his army builder list, one had a print out of the pirated PDF, and the others just wanted me to trust their memory (as well as proxy models for those units). I don't personally play against pirated army lists in store as I feel its insulting in principle to the store owner (although free PDF updates on FW website are fine). If someone forgot their codex or just has an army builder list of a codex army, we can always double check issues with the store rack copy (even if its frowned upon by the owner); that option isn't available with most FW rulesets (the owner is nice enough ot have some FW IA books for sale but they're shrink wrapped). Playing against FW armies in general can be a PITA for those reasons.

If more people people were like Yak and Diggler in this thread that used actual FW models painted up (eye candy tends to grease the wheels of opponent permission!) as well as easily accesible, legal, physical copies of the accompanying rules, I think the perception of FW units would improve substantially. Unfortunately, most of the FW gamers I've encountered on the tabletop are of the variety Mikhalia described in that they're just using unpainted proxy models with likely pirated rules. Add in the fact that the latter type of gamer also frequently tries to use the minority of units that are indeed overpowered and you have a barrel of bad apples ruining it for the bushel of good ones.

warboss wrote: Only one person out of 5 or 6 who asked me to use forgeworld rules in that time has actually had the book handy to reference. Of the others, one had the abbreviated rules in his army builder list, one had a print out of the pirated PDF, and the others just wanted me to trust their memory (as well as proxy models for those units). I don't personally play against pirated army lists in store as I feel its insulting in principle to the store owner (although free PDF updates on FW website are fine). If someone forgot their codex or just has an army builder list of a codex army, we can always double check issues with the store rack copy (even if its frowned upon by the owner); that option isn't available with most FW rulesets (the owner is nice enough ot have some FW IA books for sale but they're shrink wrapped). Playing against FW armies in general can be a PITA for those reasons.

If more people people were like Yak and Diggler in this thread that used actual FW models painted up (eye candy tends to grease the wheels of opponent permission!) as well as easily accesible, legal, physical copies of the accompanying rules, I think the perception of FW units would improve substantially. Unfortunately, most of the FW gamers I've encountered on the tabletop are of the variety Mikhalia described in that they're just using unpainted proxy models with likely pirated rules. Add in the fact that the latter type of gamer also frequently tries to use the minority of units that are indeed overpowered and you have a barrel of bad apples ruining it for the bushel of good ones.

This 100% sums up my experiences and my reactions to FW.

Horrible proxies, stolen rules or no rules at all, game ruining garbage.

Since it is opponent's consent, usually a well-painted actual FW model and having your rulebook is all someone needs to allow it in casual games. When your red solo cup drop pod stand in suddenly becomes a deathwind drop pod when you see my ork horde and you don't even have the rules for it, there is a real reason I do not wish to consent to that.

nkelsch wrote:
This 100% sums up my experiences and my reactions to FW.

Horrible proxies, stolen rules or no rules at all, game ruining garbage.

Since it is opponent's consent, usually a well-painted actual FW model and having your rulebook is all someone needs to allow it in casual games. When your red solo cup drop pod stand in suddenly becomes a deathwind drop pod when you see my ork horde and you don't even have the rules for it, there is a real reason I do not wish to consent to that.

Ironically, I still allowed those people (except in one circumstance) to use their FW rules despite all that simply because I was already familiar with what they wanted to use and they (most importantly) asked first. The only two times I didn't allow forgeworld stuff in the past few years was when a guy didn't ask first and I was unfamiliar with the unit rules and another time when I had already faced the entry and thought it was way too good for the point cost (and so did GW apparently as they didn't allow the same options when the codex was redone and the unit added in!). I personally try to give every player and unit the benefit of the doubt at least once until they dig their own grave.

My purpose in that post was to show why people it is a completely valid and reasonable choice for others to say "nah, I don't like to play against FW stuff" because the overall experience isn't that positive when you talk to alot of FLGS players who come in once a week on the store game night but otherwise don't go to tournies and conventions. Alot of the people in this thread (like Yak and Dig) are heavily involved in Adepticon where you frankly get the cream of the crop of FW gamers and armies and their experience is colored by that (and a completely valid opinion). I'm just pointing out that this isn't just a case of those mean, ignorant players who don't want to lose not allowing FW stuff. Their bad experiences influence their just as valid opinions.

warboss wrote:
I'm just pointing out that this isn't just a case of those mean, ignorant players who don't want to lose not allowing FW stuff. Their bad experiences influence their just as valid opinions.

I think FW is best handled when an event explicitly allows them as it gives people fair warning to shift their list to the FW expecting lists as well as giving those who do not wish to mess with it (or cant because they have a static list which is not designed for FW) to choose to choose other events.

There is too much ill will out there for FW due to the way people try to abuse it that hard to blanket accept it. IA2 might have been a slow step in the right direction but the way many people react to it turns me off to their pleas of 'IT IS CODEX LEGAL! NOW SUFFER MY TRAP CARD!' It took years for 'chapter approved' to really pick up steam and support in core tourney events.

yakface wrote:

The reality is, NO Imperial Armor rule anywhere is half as sick as what is found in most of the Grey Knight codex.

That's the fact that most people don't consider. They get their butt kicked by an army with IA units in it and they think that its not 'fair' and that the IA rules aren't balanced. But when you get your butt kicked by 3 Grey Knight Psy-rifleman Ven Dreads, Psychotroke Grenades, Purifiers casting 'Cleansing Flame', etc, and you just have to suck it up and accept 'that's how the game is'.

While some of the IA rules are pretty stupid, the fact is there are codex rules that are waaaay more stupid, and that's the truth. So to me, banning IA rules for that reason just seems nonsensical.

This. Balance is not the real issue.

Keeping in mind the "availability" issues, isn't and issue, since there is the internet, and www.forgeworld.co.uk. Any and all Forgeworld units/rules are MORE available than the old WH allies that many IG players would use with and out of print and out of stock codex.

So is the real issue just cost? It's an expensive hobby already. Instead of starting that 2nd or 3rd of 8th army. Get some forge world stuff.

Also, can someone actually get me the page number for the "opponent's permission" quote from the IA apoc 2 book? I am having a hard time finding it.

keithb wrote:

Also, can someone actually get me the page number for the "opponent's permission" quote from the IA apoc 2 book? I am having a hard time finding it.

As with all our models these should be considered 'official', but owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start.

There is no single correct way to play 40k. Many people prefer events not include Forgeworld rules for multiple reasons, almost all extremely valid. Events should do what they feel their constituents want of their event, not what anonymous people on the internet may or may not want. Many organizers run dual events to make both groups happy but right now the TOs are usually more in touch with their attendees than any of us.

keithb wrote:
This. Balance is not the real issue.

Keeping in mind the "availability" issues, isn't and issue, since there is the internet, and www.forgeworld.co.uk. Any and all Forgeworld units/rules are MORE available than the old WH allies that many IG players would use with and out of print and out of stock codex.

So is the real issue just cost? It's an expensive hobby already. Instead of starting that 2nd or 3rd of 8th army. Get some forge world stuff.

Also, can someone actually get me the page number for the "opponent's permission" quote from the IA apoc 2 book? I am having a hard time finding it.

Believe it or not but some high school and college students don't have full time jobs nor do they all have silver spoons in their mouths; also, not all married adults with children have the discretionary spending you'd think from simply looking at their salaries. Despite this, they still want to enjoy the hobby and choosing between getting that $50 IG tank at the FLGS or getting that $80 FW tank variant and $60 book with the rules makes it an issue. Comparing an OOP yet still available in alot of stores (including my two stores locally even today) codex that was in print for over a decade and cost $15-$20 new (and less than $10 used on ebay) with books that up until a year ago was only available by special order from England and cost $60-100 new (with used ones going for almost the same price) is disingenous at best. Forgeworld.co.uk does absolutely nothing for you when you're at the tabletop and your opponent isn't clear on a rule and doesn't have a legal copy to consult. The same situation (opponent without the book) with a codex is easily remedied in the vast majority of stores as either another player or the store itself will have a copy. It seems like some people who want FW stuff used all the time live in Imagination Land where every player always fields painted correct models with a copy of the official rules in hand and have chosen their forces based on fluff and the utmost respect for their opponent. In reality, alot (if not more realistically most) FW players have pirated rules copies with second hand models or proxies with a moderate weighting towards the overpowered variants.

Many people seem to neglect, that the Forge World variant kits often cost close to the same as the normal kit in Canada/US/AUS by the time you do the conversion.

I do agree however, that the people who have pirated rules with poor conversions/proxy or overpowered units do ruin it.

The posted who mentioned, instead of starting your 5th or 8th army, get some FW for your existing army is entirely right. In almost every case, the quality of the FW models is better than a comparable GW model, so if you spend a few bucks more, it should not be a huge deal.

IdentifyZero wrote:In almost every case, the quality of the FW models is better than a comparable GW model, so if you spend a few bucks more, it should not be a huge deal.

In my own experiences FW quality has been rather bad in the past, or at least their quality control has. For every two things I'd order, one of them would be of very poor quality unnecessary clean up work just to bring it to useable status. I just recently decided to try again (Contemptor dreadnought, couldn't say no), and I'm hopeful that they've sorted at least some of their issues, so that I won't be cleaning an extra 6" of resin from any parts.

I got my ass chew out about this issue in the DCM Moshpit, trying to defend the IA 2 ruling. I got my copy early and was surprise to see there was an true ruling about certain units and vechicle that are allow to be played in regular games. Plus the rule states that your "should ask permission". I'm all for the IA units and vehicles in regular and tournament play. I go to a store that does regular orders to FW, plus there the internet, so there shouldn't be any problem in getting any product. Plus I been seeing more and more store....that including my are allowing IA in tournaments.

I never post in this forum - hell I don't even read this forum - but FW legality is a pet-peeve of mine, so...

warboss wrote:Believe it or not but some high school and college students don't have full time jobs nor do they all have silver spoons in their mouths; also, not all married adults with children have the discretionary spending you'd think from simply looking at their salaries. Despite this, they still want to enjoy the hobby and choosing between getting that $50 IG tank at the FLGS or getting that $80 FW tank variant and $60 book with the rules makes it an issue. Comparing an OOP yet still available in alot of stores (including my two stores locally even today) codex that was in print for over a decade and cost $15-$20 new (and less than $10 used on ebay) with books that up until a year ago was only available by special order from England and cost $60-100 new (with used ones going for almost the same price) is disingenous at best. Forgeworld.co.uk does absolutely nothing for you when you're at the tabletop and your opponent isn't clear on a rule and doesn't have a legal copy to consult. The same situation (opponent without the book) with a codex is easily remedied in the vast majority of stores as either another player or the store itself will have a copy. It seems like some people who want FW stuff used all the time live in Imagination Land where every player always fields painted correct models with a copy of the official rules in hand and have chosen their forces based on fluff and the utmost respect for their opponent.

You're not actually making an argument for the 'I can't afford it so you can't use it!' line of thinking, are you warboss?

warboss wrote:In reality, alot (if not more realistically most) FW players have pirated rules copies with second hand models or proxies with a moderate weighting towards the overpowered variants.

If they're not using FW models, then they're not 'FW players'. And just what the hell is a 'FW player' anyway? And what's wrong with having 2nd hand FW models? Are they some how 'lesser' than 2nd hand any other type of model?



Anyway, Yak summed this whole thing up perfectly when he said:

Yak wrote:That's the fact that most people don't consider. They get their butt kicked by an army with IA units in it and they think that its not 'fair' and that the IA rules aren't balanced. But when you get your butt kicked by 3 Grey Knight Psy-rifleman Ven Dreads, Psychotroke Grenades, Purifiers casting 'Cleansing Flame', etc, and you just have to suck it up and accept 'that's how the game is'.

... on the last page.

warboss wrote:Believe it or not but some high school and college students don't have full time jobs nor do they all have silver spoons in their mouths; also, not all married adults with children have the discretionary spending you'd think from simply looking at their salaries.

"Hello, opponent! I look forward to playing a game of 40K with you. Space Marines, huh? Unfortunately, I can't allow you to take those Land Raiders. Yeah, I know they're in the codex, but I can't afford them, so why should I let you use them? I'm sorry, but I can't afford a $66 tank - not all of us were born with silver spoons in our mouths, you know. "

H.B.M.C. wrote:You're not actually making an argument for the 'I can't afford it so you can't use it!' line of thinking, are you warboss?

warboss wrote:In reality, alot (if not more realistically most) FW players have pirated rules copies with second hand models or proxies with a moderate weighting towards the overpowered variants.

If they're not using FW models, then they're not 'FW players'. And just what the hell is a 'FW player' anyway? And what's wrong with having 2nd hand FW models? Are they some how 'lesser' than 2nd hand any other type of model?

Nope, not making that arguement. I'm just refuting the false claim that a codex is as obtainable financially as a FW IA book (or even as phsyically obtainable in the US at least locally) and that a Destroyer Tank model + rules is just a bit more expensive than a Leman Russ. As for the second hand part, I'm referring to the poor quality of assembly including missing parts of some FW models you get online in my example of ideal vs real life. Every FW model I have is second hand except my Contemptor so it's not a dig on people who own them, just as observation on models I've frequently seen. You may not consider proxy players as FW players (and you are justified in that view) but they're wanting opponents to allow the use the FW rules and are unfortunately representative of FW players to many others. Like it or not, they're part of the equation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:

warboss wrote:Believe it or not but some high school and college students don't have full time jobs nor do they all have silver spoons in their mouths; also, not all married adults with children have the discretionary spending you'd think from simply looking at their salaries.

"Hello, opponent! I look forward to playing a game of 40K with you. Space Marines, huh? Unfortunately, I can't allow you to take those Land Raiders. Yeah, I know they're in the codex, but I can't afford them, so why should I let you use them? I'm sorry, but I can't afford a $66 tank - not all of us were born with silver spoons in our mouths, you know. "

Now you're just being obtuse or simply purposely making a straw man arguement. The above was in response to what I quoted (see below... again) but I guess its easier to "win" a discussion when you just take a line out of context and run with it instead of addressing the actual meaning of the entire post. Well done sir!

keithb wrote:
So is the real issue just cost? It's an expensive hobby already. Instead of starting that 2nd or 3rd of 8th army. Get some forge world stuff.

Some people can neither afford a second army nor a bunch of expensive FW stuff on their budgets so just saying "buy it instead of XXXXX" when alot of gamers in this economy can't afford XXXXX is not a solution to the FW question (despite being strangely proferred as one). No where in my post did I say that not being able to afford FW models (or any models) is a valid reason to disallow them. The unfamiliarity of the rules to alot of gamers is due to the books' cost and availablity.

keithb wrote: Any and all Forgeworld units/rules are MORE available than the old WH allies that many IG players would use with and out of print and out of stock codex.

Also, can someone actually get me the page number for the "opponent's permission" quote from the IA apoc 2 book? I am having a hard time finding it.

First point - the Witchhunter Codex was made available online - admittedly they removed the allies rules in the PDF. HOWEVER the Codex was available for a large chunk of third edition and fourth edition as a standard stock item. It only really disappeared a few months prior to when Grey Knights were released. It wasn't that hard to get hold of and the 2nd hand market still has craptons going cheap for them.

Second point - Page 3. The Introduction. Look at the box with the 'stamps' in it. And read. I've already quoted the exact statement that is there. It's in the same paragraph that says these entries are game-legal. Trying to pretend you can't find it is really taking the piss. It's the next sentence on.

warboss wrote:Now you're just being obtuse or simply purposely making a straw man arguement. The above was in response to what I quoted (see below... again) but I guess its easier to "win" a discussion when you just take a line out of context and run with it instead of addressing the actual meaning of the entire post. Well done sir!

I'm doing neither, and I dispute that I took it out of context. You explicitly refuted a request for clarification regarding cost being the issue by making an argument as to why that's a legitimate concern and rationale and went on to some detail, even. What hidden context am I missing? It was unambiguous. Being obtuse would be saying "well, I can't afford Ork boys, so unless you're playing with pop caps, I won't play with you".

My example, I thought, was quite reasonable. While your argument does explain why people might want to refuse, say, Thunderhawks and Warhounds, it sort of breaks down with a much more common model that is actually more expensive then a good deal of Forge World kit. Almost 70 bucks for a Land Raider, man! By any definition that's pretty damn expensive. At what point is the line drawn, where a model is refused because it's too expensive?

warboss wrote:Forgeworld.co.uk does absolutely nothing for you when you're at the tabletop and your opponent isn't clear on a rule and doesn't have a legal copy to consult. The same situation (opponent without the book) with a codex is easily remedied in the vast majority of stores as either another player or the store itself will have a copy.

I don't understand what you're saying here. If you are saying that people should not be able to field FW units unless they have a physical copy of the book in hand for reference, then we agree, actually. I don't agree that units should be restricted due to cost - as a adult with disposable income, I don't think my tactical options should be reduced to match those of a teenager with a part-time job out of some bizarre sense of balancing the world into a fair place - but I also fully understand that if I am bringing this stuff to the table, the onus is on me to provide the rules, which agreed, are uncommon, and not going to be dependably available at any venue. That's just being a good sport.

The best option, of course, would to bring 2 lists in my opinion: one with the FW, one without.

Read the thread, and while I agree that I would love to see some FW units gain wider acceptance (case in point: rotbeast cavalry for WoC if you take the Chaos Knight special character from the Tamurkhan book) I only want to see them being used if my opponent has the model.

Otherwise, I'm having to remember too much when playing him... and I'm saying this as someone who is putting together an army of alternate models (trying to go over the top and make sure everything, especially weapons, are represented exactly as they should be). Trying to remember what model is FW rules when they're also conversions would just be too much for your opponent to keep track of.

Ouze wrote: but I also fully understand that if I am bringing this stuff to the table, the onus is on me to provide the rules, which agreed, are uncommon, and not going to be dependably available at any venue.

And that is the gist of the argument. People just don't seem to understand that their opponents might like to see the "actual" rule(s) for themselves. By "actual" I mean the rules as written by the authors of the unit being used and not a copy from some third party who may, or may not, have copied them correctly.

Yeah, that's nuts. I expect to have the printed codex in hand for any army before I put a model on the table or be told to GTFO.

Ouze wrote:My example, I thought, was quite reasonable. While your argument does explain why people might want to refuse, say, Thunderhawks and Warhounds, it sort of breaks down with a much more common model that is actually more expensive then a good deal of Forge World kit. Almost 70 bucks for a Land Raider, man! By any definition that's pretty damn expensive. At what point is the line drawn, where a model is refused because it's too expensive?

I'm really not sure where you get this stuff when I posted the following:

warboss wrote: No where in my post did I say that not being able to afford FW models (or any models) is a valid reason to disallow them. The unfamiliarity of the rules to alot of gamers is due to the books' cost and availablity.

Cost or finances is not a reason to disallow FW models. I simply brought up $$ in response to the claim that FW stuff isn't more expensive (either for the models or books) for most gamers and that the $$ of their products leads to less availability and familiarity. Can you please stop refuting an imaginary argument that was never made?

Ouze wrote:

warboss wrote:Forgeworld.co.uk does absolutely nothing for you when you're at the tabletop and your opponent isn't clear on a rule and doesn't have a legal copy to consult. The same situation (opponent without the book) with a codex is easily remedied in the vast majority of stores as either another player or the store itself will have a copy.

I don't understand what you're saying here. If you are saying that people should not be able to field FW units unless they have a physical copy of the book in hand for reference, then we agree, actually. I don't agree that units should be restricted due to cost - as a adult with disposable income, I don't think my tactical options should be reduced to match those of a teenager with a part-time job out of some bizarre sense of balancing the world into a fair place - but I also fully understand that if I am bringing this stuff to the table, the onus is on me to provide the rules, which agreed, are uncommon, and not going to be dependably available at any venue. That's just being a good sport.

The best option, of course, would to bring 2 lists in my opinion: one with the FW, one without.

I'm not trying to be insulting but do you even read the enire post or the quotes I include when I reply? You seem to be picking out a sentance and just ignoring its context and the quote it's a direct reply to.

keithb wrote:
Keeping in mind the "availability" issues, isn't and issue, since there is the internet, and www.forgeworld.co.uk. Any and all Forgeworld units/rules are MORE available than the old WH allies that many IG players would use with and out of print and out of stock codex.

I discussed the website as a response to the above (which was also in the post you keep misinterpreting). If your opponent doesn't have the book during the game, the website does nothing to help with "availability" of the rules when compared to a codex (which is in all likelihood sitting on a shelf in the store you're playing in). As for the straw man price = no play argument... for the fourth time, I'M NOT SAYING THAT. I hope you can take some solace in the fact that we're in agreement on this one sided, imaginary argument.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

keithb wrote: Any and all Forgeworld units/rules are MORE available than the old WH allies that many IG players would use with and out of print and out of stock codex.

Also, can someone actually get me the page number for the "opponent's permission" quote from the IA apoc 2 book? I am having a hard time finding it.

First point - the Witchhunter Codex was made available online - admittedly they removed the allies rules in the PDF. HOWEVER the Codex was available for a large chunk of third edition and fourth edition as a standard stock item. It only really disappeared a few months prior to when Grey Knights were released. It wasn't that hard to get hold of and the 2nd hand market still has craptons going cheap for them.

Second point - Page 3. The Introduction. Look at the box with the 'stamps' in it. And read. I've already quoted the exact statement that is there. It's in the same paragraph that says these entries are game-legal. Trying to pretend you can't find it is really taking the piss. It's the next sentence on.

To the first point, I am not arguing anywhere that a player should be able to play IA stuff without having their rules present. But, I am not talking about the online PDF version of the book as it didn't have the most often used rules (allies) in them. Most places I have seen ruled that you could use the allies if, and only if, you had the actual codex. Which as a newer player, I had a hard time finding other than ebay or elsewhere on the internet. But, I can do the Same for FW books, so why are they treated differently. NOTE: I am only saying that availability isn't a reason to ban FW stuff.

To the second, point, I DL'ed a PDF of the book to research this stuff for this discussion. I like FW eldar stuff and starting an army is something I am planning on soon. I will absolutely purchase the book if I carry through with this plan. Yet, after your post about page three, I checked it, and it doesn't have a page three. So sorry about "pretending" I couldn't find it, but I thought you were taking a piss as I read through the whole thing trying to find the quote you listed.

To the last point people bring up about cost.

I fully understand that this is an expensive hobby, and many people only have one army. I, for example, have only tyranids. I think everyone would agree that the GK book as a whole is a more powerful codex than tyranids. Since I can't afford to start a new army right now, it isn't fair that GK should be better than nids, and they should be banned. I mean, you understand how silly that sounds right? Why should anyone OTHER than you, be limited by YOUR financial situation, when it comes to a hobby, or leisure activity. Should all golfer's not on the pro tour only be able to use 6 clubs because that's all you can afford, and it isn't fair that he gets to have a 9 iron AND an 8 iron?

Just to be clear, how many people here would actually have an issue and NOT attend an event because a TO allowed me to bring a painted Wraithseer along with an IA book with his rules and everything?

If you wouldn't play, or if you would complain to a TO. Please list why.
A) IA stuff isn't balanced correctly.
B) FW stuff is too expensive and it isn't fair that I chose to spend more money than you on a hobby we both enjoy.
C) You don't want to play against something you aren't familiar with and didn't prepare for.
D) You can't buy these models at your local FLGS and think it is unfair for anyone to have models that you can't buy at the store.

Look, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and can run events however they want as a TO, or attend whatever events they want as a player. I am not intending to suggest that this isn't the case.

Most change in acceptance and banning are done through player consensus anyway. So why don't we get one?

keithb wrote: I mean, you understand how silly that sounds right? Why should anyone OTHER than you, be limited by YOUR financial situation, when it comes to a hobby, or leisure activity. Should all golfer's not on the pro tour only be able to use 6 clubs because that's all you can afford, and it isn't fair that he gets to have a 9 iron AND an 8 iron?

Can you please quote from this thread where someone directly said that it was a legitimate excuse? YOU were the one who introduced cost as an issue in this thread initially.

keithb wrote:
Just to be clear, how many people here would actually have an issue and NOT attend an event because a TO allowed me to bring a painted Wraithseer along with an IA book with his rules and everything?
If you wouldn't play, or if you would complain to a TO. Please list why.
A) IA stuff isn't balanced correctly.
B) FW stuff is too expensive and it isn't fair that I chose to spend more money than you on a hobby we both enjoy.
C) You don't want to play against something you aren't familiar with and didn't prepare for.
D) You can't buy these models at your local FLGS and think it is unfair for anyone to have models that you can't buy at the store.

Look, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and can run events however they want as a TO, or attend whatever events they want as a player. I am not intending to suggest that this isn't the case.

Most change in acceptance and banning are done through player consensus anyway. So why don't we get one?

First off, 40k players are not some monolithic entity or group so you'll never get a consensus. At best, you might get a consensus in a single thread on one forum of web enabled gamers who care to regularly check 40k forums. In my local store of about 15 regular players, only two (including myself) actually read/post in 40k forums. At my old store in another major metro area hundreds of miles away, the percentage was even lower. We posters in this thread are not indicative of the average 40k player. Either way, you might be best served in this query by setting up a separate thread with a poll as part of the first post. For the record, as long as the TO specifically advertised ahead of time that non-apoc FW stuff was ok for the tourney and required the use of the most recent, legal, physical copy of the rules as well as official models or well made and preapproved conversions, I'd be fine with that. I don't want to play against a pirated rules copy or no rules nor do I want to pretend that those warp spiders are really shadow spectres in a tourney.

keithb wrote:To the second, point, I DL'ed a PDF of the book to research this stuff for this discussion. I like FW eldar stuff and starting an army is something I am planning on soon. I will absolutely purchase the book if I carry through with this plan. Yet, after your post about page three, I checked it, and it doesn't have a page three. So sorry about "pretending" I couldn't find it, but I thought you were taking a piss as I read through the whole thing trying to find the quote you listed.

So...you basically pirated the book? I think this point has been covered well enough.

The printed book has it, in the Introduction section where they explain what all the 'stamps' mean. It is in a seperate box at the bottom of that page. If your copy doesn't have that then you shouldn't even be trying to push it - the standard of FW books has always, ALWAYS been opponent's permission or okay with it. Why would this be different?

warboss wrote:[I'm not trying to be insulting but do you even read the enire post or the quotes I include when I reply? You seem to be picking out a sentance and just ignoring its context and the quote it's a direct reply to.

You keep pointing to some unknown "context" when in fact there was no other context to what you said. If you want to walk back what you said, that's one thing, but when you make an argument and 3 different people in a row "misunderstand what you said" to the exact same effect, maybe they're not the problem.

In any event, I suspect no opinions will be swayed here, so best of luck in your endeavors.

If you purchase the proper rules.

if you purchase the proper models.

No opponent should have issues playing against you. Unless they just want to be a jerk about it, since the consent implied to use FW models & rules is pretty much across the board for anything, as many people have mentioned. The cost issues, mean nothing either, as this is already an expensive hobby and FW models are not that much more expensive unless you're going for super-heavy fliers and titans etc...

In a tournament setting, if you have FW models and own the proper rules, you should speak to the TO ahead of time. You will never find a general consensus or group of people agreeing on the matter.


I will point out, that many FLGS as one store owner pointed out; actually dislike FW in their store, because it does take away from potential GW sales when people see the cool FW stuff and want to buy it.

This is one reason, among a few others I stopped going to the only active FLGS that was really close. He essentially, did not want me to bring any FW into the store, even FW Marine Armor because it distracted people from wanting the regular kits etc.. Let's just say, this guy is a bit of a dbag though and has a long history of it, stretching back, even to when he worked for GW.

(This is the same guy, who ran an 'Apocalypse Tournament' and was both TO, Sole Judge of the event as well as a player... He went on to make secret alliances with almost every player and break them and take hissy fits and threaten to boot people from the store for then allying with me... insanity. His tournaments were typical nonsense like that to, which is a shame because it's one of the busier and nicer stores that's within 15 minutes of me. All the other options are hour away.)

DarkStarSabre wrote:

keithb wrote:To the second, point, I DL'ed a PDF of the book to research this stuff for this discussion. I like FW eldar stuff and starting an army is something I am planning on soon. I will absolutely purchase the book if I carry through with this plan. Yet, after your post about page three, I checked it, and it doesn't have a page three. So sorry about "pretending" I couldn't find it, but I thought you were taking a piss as I read through the whole thing trying to find the quote you listed.

So...you basically pirated the book? I think this point has been covered well enough.

The printed book has it, in the Introduction section where they explain what all the 'stamps' mean. It is in a seperate box at the bottom of that page. If your copy doesn't have that then you shouldn't even be trying to push it - the standard of FW books has always, ALWAYS been opponent's permission or okay with it. Why would this be different?

My understanding is the the FW fantasy book doesn't list this for Chaos Dwarves. Also, precedent is always set by the latest and greatest. Just because something is they way it used to be doesn't me it is the way it always will be.

Yes, i looked at the book without paying for it. Same as looking through a codex at a store. I have ZERO intention of trying to use any rule or model from that book without purchasing it, I have stated this more than once in this thread.

What I don't intend, ever, is to be an uninformed consumer. I also have an interest in this thread as I have no intention of buying the book OR models if I cannot reasonable expect to play them. I am a newer player when it comes to 40k, so I thought having some reasonable discussion about it. I didn't realize I had a page missing in the PDF, and I certainly wasn't trying to knowingly push that version of it over the legit version. I simply did not realize there was a difference. I do not see how this makes my contribution to the discussion any less valid.

I have an interest in knowing what to expect regarding these models and rules, and whether people are ok with it. What the standard is. If I can't expect to play these models, I certainly want to know BEFORE I buy them.

mikhaila wrote:

warboss wrote:Does the Chaos Dwarf "player" actually have the book or is he trying to use it with a pirated copy?

Oh, he bought the book. Paid extra to get one of the ones sold at FW open day. Immediately started yelling for me to allow it as it was 'official'. Our first arguement revolved around the fact that I woudln't even have my copy for another month.)

The real funny thing is, I'm running a Throne of Chaos campaign weekend. Non-tourney hobby event, and older model CD are allowed as long as they are painted and based nicely. He immediately thumbed his nose at it, as he doesn't want to paint.)

Several 40k players doing the same thing:
"I don't understand why I can't use an Ares LR and Dreadpods!" "

Hmm, do you own an Ares Landraider and Dreadnaught Drop pods from FW?"

"What the hell does that have to do with using the rules?"

My counter to your question would be, Why should I buy it if no one will allow me to use it?

Not saying you should or should not allow FW. But again, why spend the large amount of money on something I will never be allowed to use. And to say well spend the money and I might allow it is not really encouraging.

see, I'm of the personal opinion that if:
A - The person has a copy of the actual rules for X they can put on the table in game. (In a tournament possibly providing a copy + any relevant rulings to the organiser.)

AND

B - Own the model -or- Have a sufficently well scratch-built or converted equivalent (correct size, scale, well made and painted, not just a cardboard box with Titan written on it or a half-hearted craptastic attempt.) allowing for how insanely expensive FW models are.

Then I can't see any reason why they shouldn't bring it to the table.

Ouze wrote:You keep pointing to some unknown "context" when in fact there was no other context to what you said. If you want to walk back what you said, that's one thing, but when you make an argument and 3 different people in a row "misunderstand what you said" to the exact same effect, maybe they're not the problem.

In any event, I suspect no opinions will be swayed here, so best of luck in your endeavors.

Show me any post or portion there of where I actually say that not being able to afford FW models yourself is a valid excuse for refusing to play against it. Go ahead... I'll wait...... In the meantime, stop putting words in my mouth and then refuting them.


As for the last part, we're in agreement on that. IA books have been around for over a decade and for 3 editions of the game. GW has specifically chosen not to include mention of them being as legal as a codex in the core rules multiple times. Until they do exactly that, they'll never have the same blanket acceptance as a codex.

warboss wrote:


As for the last part, we're in agreement on that. IA books have been around for over a decade and for 3 editions of the game. GW has specifically chosen not to include mention of them being as legal as a codex in the core rules multiple times. Until they do exactly that, they'll never have the same blanket acceptance as a codex.

Where does it say Codex:Grey knights is legal in the core rules? It doesn't, codex grey knights does.

I guess it is just different for me, coming from a WH:Fantasy background, where we didn't have FW options until just recently.

Hello,
Is anyone wondering how many horses have needlessly died due to the needs of beating a dead one further to death?

Regards,
Carl