Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I've been tasked with setting up a black crusade game for tomorrow night. I've got two players that are rolling human characters, and suffice to say I'm a bit unsure how to do this. I expect most characters take orders and die, no matter what side they're on. This only changes if they're exceedingly powerful in some form or fashion (Calgar, Eldrad, Abaddon, etc. etc.). So when characters want to start up a game at lvl 1, what do you do? Taking orders works on the tabletop, but in an RPG setting I don't think it would be terribly fun.

So yeah. How do you guys handle games like that?

Have you ever played an RPG-like game before?

This is not a system where the various players are to fight it out with each other and vast armies, this is a setting where the point is to allow the players to play the parts of the characters involved. Think of it as a bit like a co-operative action movie focusing on the exploits of a small core of protagonists, rather than massed battles. They should play the part of Luke Skywalker or Han Solo, not regular old stormtroopers.

The RPGs, for almost the entirety, focus on the side of the 40k universe which is away from the front lines. Even Deathwatch, focused around characters whose sole purpose is killing, will cover things like sneaking through the bowels of a spaceship to clear out an Ork infestation, not "We've got a massive Ork horde coming, line up with the rest of the army would you?".

In the Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader games I'm playing, I've got an Assassin who is currently infiltrating a underhive Xeno-tech smuggling ring by pretending to be hired help, and an Arch-Militant who is searching through a market looking for someone she hopes is going to be an ally in her own personal mission against a group of Magos Biologis with highly questionable morals.

To describe it in Black Library novels, we're talking more "Eisenhorn" than "Gaunt's Ghosts".

H.B.M.C. wrote:Have you ever played an RPG-like game before?

Not exactly sure what your getting at, but yes. I've been DMing D&D, WoD, Gamma World, and other such things for about 10 or so years.

It's just odd to me because with just about any other RPG setting your free to do whatever you want in whatever order. This style of play just never seemed to transition well to the 40k universe. A rogue trader game would work with the idea of do what you want, but playing as a space marine or chaos cultist will almost always involve taking orders to some extent or another.

Regarding front line combat, yeah that's never been too great in tabletop settings. Massive battles have to be worked out carefully, or just avoided entirely.

So far I've got a pretty good story set up, it's decent enough for a first attempt game. I just need to find some decent ideas for side quests, as well figure out what to do regarding finding items. I can't see the players just happening upon a mastercrafted lascannon in this universe. I mean they could happen upon a noble who's been hoarding artifacts, but aside from that you don't just fine master crafted lascannons lying around in a cave somewhere.

Always remember that (no matter the game system) a game master's role is to make sure everyone has fun. That exact definition changes a lot based on the game, but it's true no matter if it's the kind of game where players expect characters to have life-spans in days or games where they play the same character for decades. The players (and GM) need to be on the same wavelength so as to have fun.

From what I've heard Black Crusade has some systems to help the GM out by giving the players a common goal and letting them work towards it. Use this! If their ultimate goal is (for example) toppling a Guard outpost there's a lot of other ways than rushing into it (which will likely end badly for even a group full of Chaos Space Marines). Consider other routes, and plan with that in mind. For 40k (especially Black Crusade) the Chaos Gods can be a good shorthand for problem-solving:

Khorne: Run at the Guard outpost. For slightly stealthier, raise an army. This could be several adventures, maybe involving finding humans willing to serve, convincing them to join the cult or acquiring stuff to bribe them, etc. Lots of adventure material to get a bunch of human traitors, Orks, kroot, Whatever pointed in the right direction.

Nurgle: Let the characters learn that there's one major water supply. They can, as an option, do the above tips (form an army) but can weaken the garrison by poisoning the water supply. They'll need to acquire a poison and sneak in to plant it, then close off any other water supplies. Also, throw in some plague zombies somewhere.

Tzeentch: Easy! Find power full magic to blow up the Guard outpost, warp into the armored control bunker, whatever. COuld be a 40k version of a standard dungeonc rawl to find the demonic item to give them this power (which only works when the moons are right to prevent them using this awesome cosmic power to, say, mow the lawn.).

Slaanesh: Don't think attacking the citadel will work? Subvert it! Sneak in, make friends with whomever runs the place, and convince them they've been fooled and are backing the wrong side. Possible side-quests to acquire 'proof.' Maybe have the player characters plant a story that the Guard commander's family was killed by an Astartes patrol... And the PCs have to make this story plausible.

If it's Black Crusade the characters are pretty blatantly going to be Not Nice people... One reason I have no real interest in playing or running it, personally. Don't be surprised if things get weird.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necroshea wrote:
It's just odd to me because with just about any other RPG setting your free to do whatever you want in whatever order. This style of play just never seemed to transition well to the 40k universe. A rogue trader game would work with the idea of do what you want, but playing as a space marine or chaos cultist will almost always involve taking orders to some extent or another.

'Military' campaigns get boring to me because of the command structure. Personally, for a one-off it's fine, but it's a lot more interesting if the PCs are given a broad goal and directed, but not forced, onto a path.

Sure, CSMs are technically part of a Legion or Chapter structure, but they're Chaos! Rebelling is part of the package! If they disregard orders and lose, sure, it'll end badly... but if they disregard orders and triumph, then they win and may get to replace their boss.

Necroshea wrote:
So far I've got a pretty good story set up, it's decent enough for a first attempt game. I just need to find some decent ideas for side quests, as well figure out what to do regarding finding items. I can't see the players just happening upon a mastercrafted lascannon in this universe. I mean they could happen upon a noble who's been hoarding artifacts, but aside from that you don't just fine master crafted lascannons lying around in a cave somewhere.

I'd say in general stick to loot like this as gifts from patrons, trophies, or similar. If it's set on a world where there's been a lot of Chaos-y stuff there is room to have some weird stuff... I remember the Grey Knight novel where the characters were on a Forge World and then a Daemon World and could see 'finding' a Lascannon in a dark, dusty long-forgotten supply room or workshop on either of them. Not often, but often enough.

Necroshea wrote:playing as a space marine or chaos cultist will almost always involve taking orders to some extent or another.

"To some extent" doesn't mean it has to be very much.

In my Dark Heresy game (well, I actually took it over from our over-busy GM), the Inquisitor gave the group a pretty loose objective and I let the players attempt it in their own way.
That's not hugely different from the king giving a group of adventurers a plot hook. Sure, the difference might be in whether the characters could really turn it down, but if you pick an objective that works with the characters, the players won't argue with it - they are looking to play a game, so the players can usually find a justification for why their characters would be involved or choose to play along. Of course, if the characters decide to rebel, that's a plot in its own right!

I can't see the players just happening upon a mastercrafted lascannon in this universe.

It's an unlikely thing for them to find, but if the players decide they want one, turn it into a side quest. They must break into the armoury of the elite Stormtrooper regiments on a nearby planet and steal said item.

MarcoSkoll wrote:

I can't see the players just happening upon a mastercrafted lascannon in this universe.

It's an unlikely thing for them to find, but if the players decide they want one, turn it into a side quest. They must break into the armoury of the elite Stormtrooper regiments on a nearby planet and steal said item.

It could be amped up a bit with backstory... it's not just a "mastercrafted lascannon" it's the weapon that a Space marine hero-type once wielded ind efense of the local colony that was lovingly restored as a favor by the AdMech and is kept in in a reliquarium most of the time. "Acquiring" it won't be easy, but it'll be a cool weapon upgrade AND it's a way to show some disrespect to the Space Marine forces. (Your job to explain why the Space marines aren't using it...)

And how bad they're gonna want it back!

I find reading the chaos legionnaires black library books, the night lorsds and word bearers ones in particular, as well as the horus heresy and iron warrriors (Hounsou) ones are a good idea of getting the "feel" of things as well as a few ideas!

Necroshea wrote:It's just odd to me because with just about any other RPG setting your free to do whatever you want in whatever order. This style of play just never seemed to transition well to the 40k universe. A rogue trader game would work with the idea of do what you want, but playing as a space marine or chaos cultist will almost always involve taking orders to some extent or another.

I think I see your issue now. It depends a lot on the players, though. "Black Crusade" isn't truly meant to have the characters start out as being part of a greater organization, though that is certainly a possibility. The ultimate goal, however, is to have the players build such an organization by themselves, with their characters as leaders. Usually, each of the characters would have some special ability that makes him somewhat valuable and worth keeping around. This could be his combat prowess or some arcane knowledge, or even just the minions he is able to add to the cause.

It would seem likely and fitting that one of the characters assumes a leadership position from where he would be able to give orders to the other players' characters, but following them should be part of the fun of the game, not something that people dislike - so make sure that the leader is played by someone who is both able to portray such a role as well as empathic enough to realize that everybody should have fun playing the game. Black Crusade parties are always "alliances of convenience", but this need not affect the players' enjoyment. Some kind of hierarchy is part of the immersion, and a grimdark atmosphere is half the fun. And anyways: Just because at least some of the characters are technically subordinates doesn't mean they suddenly loose all personality, coolness and appeal, does it? As long as every character shares in the entire group's successes and failures (as opposed to, say, the leader lashing out on a scapegoat), cohesion should be strong enough to create a sense of community for the players.

The above approach works nicely in the other 40k games, too, by the way.