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So, I've recently purchased some IG Heavy Stubbers to add to my tanks (after I get back from Adepticon). I've concluded that I like them and they are worth the points at some level in my army.

I obviously am not going to put them on an Ordnance tank (if you don't know why, then no need for you to reply in this thread; our conepts of tactics are too far apart).

So that leaves the Hellhound and Chimeras.

My first inclination when I cracked open the codex for the first time was to give Hellhounds a Stubber to make them even more super-dooper.

However, after playing some games with Hellhounds I've found that my opponents fear them so much (rightly so) that the Hellhounds rarely finish the game alive. So do I really want to be giving my opponents the extra VPs for the Stubbers on the Hellhound?

Alternatively, I've recently thought that putting them on Chimeras (and taking 2 Armored Fist squads) would make the Chimeras more deadly and therefore put them a little bit more on the level of the Hellhound (in terms of my enemy's target priority).

By taking 2 Hellhounds and 2 Chimeras in my list, it would present 4 very formidable targets to infantry units and give my opponent no easy choices. When I factor in that Chimeras aren't scoring units and my opponents tend to not shoot at them unless they've got nothing else to shoot at, they stand a very real chance of lasting the entire game pumping out 9 shots a turn.

 

So what say you all? Does this sound like a sound tactic, or would you suggest something else and why?

 

 

I think your reasoning is very sound.

The Chimera is the first priority to get a stubber since it meshes with the Multilaser and HB so well.

If I have the points, I'd put on the Hellhound as well.

You're also more likely to get overwhelming fire with the Hellhound + its HB + its Heavy Stubber, letting you pick off PF Veteran Sergeants and heavy weapons troopers.

The heavy stubber, as a light machine gun, is just an inherently nifty weapon for a tank pintle too.

I'd say: Go for it if you have the points, and leave your Hellhounds so you can switch turret hatches when you need to squeeze.

I'm somewhere in between. As wasa said, the theory is sound. It just comes down to how much more effective is it? I don't know if it's worth 15 points. On the other hand, taking it as the weapon destroyed option doesn't m,ake a chimera any less effective.

I'd liken it to COD. If you can get it great. If not, nothing ventured, nothing lost.

On the other hand, taking it as the weapon destroyed option doesn't m,ake a chimera any less effective.

Except that the opponent chooses what you lose... so the stubber is probably going to be the LAST gun gone, not the first.

I say go for them on the Chimeras, but not on the Hellhounds.  You're looking at a stealth-upgrade to get the Chimera into Hellhound-level threat range; this also enhances the supporting-fire role of the Chimera.  Also, like you say, why give away more points on a tank that does great against troops as-is, when the enemy will be gunning for it already?  Of course, once they realize how many shots you're pumping out, they'll have a conundrum: which to shoot... exactly what you want them to have.

@Sutekh: Except that the opponent chooses what you lose... so the stubber is probably going to be the LAST gun gone, not the first.

My bad...

Point is, we both agree that it's not a bad choice. I'm just neutral on it, where as you are for it.

I always put stubbers on my Chimeras. As someone else said, it meshes EXTREMELY well with the multi laser/Heavy bolter. 9 dice (10 if you have a HK missile...Though that isn't cost effective usually) is nice to be rolling, especially against nids, but to a smaller extent against everyone else. It also allows you to achieve torrent of fire easier.

On my hellhound, I have a storm bolter. It's overpriced in comparison to a stubber (only 2 points less for 1 less shot at a lower range). The reason I did it is because the inferno cannon only has a 24" range, so the storm bolter will always be in range if the cannon is. I still wish I had put a stubber on it, but I didn't realize I had an extra one until I had put the bolter on it.

But yes, Chimeras should get the stubbers first.

Posted By Flagg07 on 03/04/2006 1:05 AM
I'm somewhere in between. As wasa said, the theory is sound. It just comes down to how much more effective is it? I don't know if it's worth 15 points. On the other hand, taking it as the weapon destroyed option doesn't m,ake a chimera any less effective.

I'd liken it to COD. If you can get it great. If not, nothing ventured, nothing lost.

Stubbers are twelve points.

Stubbers on Chimeras= Yes

Stubbers for hellhounds = Probably.

The hellhound is tough for the same reasons you mentioned already: it gets shot at a lot. It usually gets to shoot first, though, so you're pretty much guarenteed a heavy-stubber blast for the cost. Worth it? If you have the points available, although it's probably one of the first things I'd consider cutting if I needed points somewhere else. Two hellhounds, so 24 points...that's a decent chunk of change, depending on the rest of your list.

On a chimera, the stubber boosts the "statistical" kill count 33%; 0.75 killed MEQs vs 1.00 killed w/ stubber. It makes a big differance, and if you find the % cost increase for adding the stubber, it is well below the 30% increse in effectiveness from the stubber.

On a side note, I play mech, so I need every gun that I can get since the army is so small, thus, all of the chimerae have stubbers to better deal with hordes of stuff.

Hey, cool! I never considered them that useful, but lovel the look of the gun. I guess I'll be upgrading my chimeras soon

Let's see the math.

I have no idea what the math should be, but how many gaunts does a 12 point stubber kill in a game?

Assuming it gets to shoot 4 times before it dies, that's 12 shots, 6 hits, 4 dead gaunts.

4 gaunts costs the other guy 20-40 points. Then subtract the 12 points you've given up in extra VP and it comes out slightly ahead.

Even though Hellhounds are fire magnets the extra 24 for two stubbers is well worth it in my opinion. Often with IG it's about volume of fire.

Having never played IG myself (except couple test games for fun, no serious gaming), but having been on the opposite side of the table quite a few times I guess I'll say a couple words. Mostly point out that I play 'Nids, thus I find HellHounds and Chimeras quite big of a threat, as I play horde style instead of Godzilla style.
For me as 'Nid player I usually pour all my shooting to the Hell Hounds firstly, they can potentially kill bigger amount of gaunts, depending on situation ofcourse. They also are scoring units, unlike Chimeras. Chimeras are secondary targets most of the time, when comparing these two vehicles.
Personally I'd put the Stubbers to Chimeras, for the same reasoning you provided already Yakface. I'd also add in the fact it gives bit more headache to 'Nid and other horde army players as of which tank to shoot, the HH or the Chimera.

One way to phrase it is what else can you get for 24 points?

It is probably a decent place to slim down on points, if you need to.

There are probably more efficient ways to spend the points though. Not necessarily anything flat out better you could buy, but it could provide extra points for other things in the army.

The 12 points isn't much for a few chimera, but once you go mech, It can be the difference between another squad.

I played a game this weekend with Stubbers proxied on my Chimeras.

Although I lost the game (to Darrian13's Daemonbomb army) I was very pleased with the effectiveness of the stubbers.

I will certainly be adding them to the Chimeras. . .I believe I will be passing the option to put them on the Hellhounds (for now).

Just thinking out loud here....

If I have the choice between a Hellhound for 115 pts  or say 8 heavy stubbers on 8 chimeras for 96 pts, what is better?  Those 8 stubbers put out 24 shots at 36" every turn.  The Hellhound is limited to 24" and might get 7-8 hits under its template, plus 1-2 from the bolter.  Seems the stubbers are a better buy.  It takes 8 penetrating hits to destroy all those chimera stubbers, but just one lucky hit to kill that hellhound.  Obviously this would only work for a mech force.  Is the conventional wisdom about no upgrades for Chimeras in a mech force wrong?

Interesting thought

I haven't done the math, so I'm not sure how much more effective it is, but I like putting a Heavy Stubber on my Hellhound, because that gives it six shots out to 36" (for early turns, or canny oppenents who don't want me making post toasties out of their models) and there are times, generally when shooting at one model or very small groups, where the odds just feel better shooting six times, and scoring about three hits, rather than having the 75% chance of hitting a model once.

You also cannot discount a few important things about the Hellhound:

1) It ignores cover.
2) It is S6, so will instant kill T3 creatures (especially swarms).
3) It is a scoring unit.
4) It has a massive psychological effect on most opposing players.


Because of those 4 factors, regardless of what the numbers say, I would personally stick with a Hellhound over 8 Stubbers every day of the week.

I would definitely recommend you continue using the stubbers on the chimera's. The additional attacks from the chimeras were impressive. As soon as you started rolling all those dice for the chimera, it went way up on my target priority list. Stubbers are definitely worth 12 points.

Darrian

Yeah, my favorite line. "You get 9! dice with that tank?!?"

I thought that you could fire the stubber in place of another weapon option, not in addition?

Nope, it counts as a defensive weapon, just like the heavy bolter. SO looking at our rule book, we see we can move 6 inches and fire on main gun, and all defensive weapons. So 9 dice comming at ya.

Nope, you can always fire it with other weapons.  In fact a stationary Chimera can fire a str 8 HK missile and 3 each from ML, HB and stubber!

And a moving one can do the same thing.

Sweeeeet... definitely fitting one on mine in that case.

I think by having multiple hellhounds in your force (ie 2-3) your opponent has to take down all three. With heavy stubbers attached you are laying down a serious amount of firepower. Multiple Hellhounds is definitely awesome. Capt K

Right, but the point is, the hellhounds do not need the extra dakka, and are big enough targets anyway. Adding a stubber to a chimera greatly increases its firepower with out changing its ranking on your opponents target priority. Plus, three guns that all reach out to 36" is a nice thing.

True. But I never really liked sinking all those points into units that aren't scoring units. Don't get me wrong, I think Chimera's are awesome gunboats now, but when decked out they are close to the cost of a hellhound anyways. But the hellhound has better AV overall and deploys last. Having stubbers on them doesn't really jack up their points too high. Capt K