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So I happen to know someone (Totally not me) working on a Mod for a game in the same vein as LoL, DotA, and HoN, and he (totally not me) wants some opinions. As of right now, he (totally not me) has NOTHING done but some character kits, so please don't get your hopes up. He's (Totally not me) planning on learning C++ in college and getting some people to help him make the mod, but it's still a ways out, he's fairly certain.

Question #1: The game being used as a mod is able to render certain parts of the map as being pitch black. Not Fog of War black, but actually "Holy crap, I can't see what's in front of my face" pitch black. He is thinking of making either one lane or the "Jungle" being the "Shadow Lane", where only certain characters can see/ act, due to being glowy or having a flashlight. Additionally, other characters would be able to buy a Light Item, that would allow them to see normally, but it would cost them what others would have normally.

This would allow Ambushes and other such things, as Glowing would be toggleable. He fears it creates a problem that LoL has with it's Metagame; only certain people can go to certain lanes.

Good idea, bad idea?

Question #2: How well would you guys respond to different characters having totally different controls? For instance, instead of clicking, this Mod would require you to move with WASD. However, one character idea he has had is a Tank like Being that has Tank Controls; A and D do not move him left or right, but turn him left or right. The character idea itself is just like that of a tank, and the Tank Controls would help reinforce that. I suppose the main question posed is; how unique would you be willing to let each character be? Do you subscribe to LoLs philosophy where everyone just has different ways of doing the same job, or do you take DotA's to the extreme, and everyone is completely different?


Question #3: If there was one thing you could change about the standard MoBA map. Three lanes, Diagnal, River in the middle, with the Jungle in between each lane. What is wrong with this map, or rather what would you change if you could?

Question #4: Would you be willing to let a character be "Orky"? By this I mean, the characters Ultimate does random Damage, Stun, and Radius. If any of the random values are negative, he hits himself with the others (Rolls high damage with a LONG stun time, but a negative radius, he hits himself for the damage and is stunned for the duration. If he rolls high Radius with a high Stun, but negative damage, he quite possibly just stunned his entire team. If he rolls high on all three, he just WTF-PWNED the entire other team). This character would be Bannable (as they all would), so you wouldn't have to see him in game if you didn't want to.

Final Question: How important is the Lore to you?

If you could answer these questions, he (Totally not me) would grately appreciate it

Slarg232 wrote:Question #1: The game being used as a mod is able to render certain parts of the map as being pitch black. Not Fog of War black, but actually "Holy crap, I can't see what's in front of my face" pitch black. He is thinking of making either one lane or the "Jungle" being the "Shadow Lane", where only certain characters can see/ act, due to being glowy or having a flashlight. Additionally, other characters would be able to buy a Light Item, that would allow them to see normally, but it would cost them what others would have normally.

This would allow Ambushes and other such things, as Glowing would be toggleable. He fears it creates a problem that LoL has with it's Metagame; only certain people can go to certain lanes.

Good idea, bad idea?

Design decisions are a sliding scale. On one hand, you can create complex and varied game mechanics but this has the disadvantage of making the game less accessible. Limiting lanes in that manner also presents a host of balance issues and I'd think, unnecessary game complexity. I say bad idea but its not my mod.

Question #2: How well would you guys respond to different characters having totally different controls? For instance, instead of clicking, this Mod would require you to move with WASD. However, one character idea he has had is a Tank like Being that has Tank Controls; A and D do not move him left or right, but turn him left or right. The character idea itself is just like that of a tank, and the Tank Controls would help reinforce that. I suppose the main question posed is; how unique would you be willing to let each character be? Do you subscribe to LoLs philosophy where everyone just has different ways of doing the same job, or do you take DotA's to the extreme, and everyone is completely different?

I think that's definitely a bad idea. Way overly complicated and some people will not want to play just because of the control wackiness.

Question #3: If there was one thing you could change about the standard MoBA map. Three lanes, Diagnal, River in the middle, with the Jungle in between each lane. What is wrong with this map, or rather what would you change if you could?

I've actually got not problems with the standard map but I want new maps, and I don't mean that Twisted Treeline crap.

Final Question: How important is the Lore to you?

I care a lot. But all my whining over the stories of ME and DA should make that evident

If you could answer these questions, he (Totally not me) would grately appreciate it

I think thou protestish too much.

#1: Would you say that the Shadow Lane or the Shadow Jungle are bad ideas? Because in all three of the others, only certain characters can Jungle as well.

#2: Also, Would you say #2 would be bad if it was say..... 1 character out of forty?

#3: What do you mean, exactly?


Also, I protestest not at all

The jungle less so than the lane.

For #2 imo, controls should ideally baring unusual circumstances, be universal. I can think of few reasons to do otherwise.

As for #3 I mean that Twisted Treeline sucks and I wish they'd made a real 5v5 map instead.

Would you be willing to name the few reasons for #2?

Slarg232 wrote:Would you be willing to name the few reasons for #2?

Because then learning new characters means relearning a whole control scheme as well as their mechanics. That's overly burdensome on the player in my eye. No one wants to do that much work... Well I shouldn't say that. Some people play Steel Battalion...

Fair enough.

What's your take on Backdooring? A necessary evil, a good strategy, a crutch for bad players, an unspeakable evil?

I think its fine. If a team fails to guard against backdooring that's their fault. Also one of the few ways for a losing team to pull a come from behind to be honest.

What about a character who is devoted entirely to a "Felt, but not seen" type of deal; Goes invisible, lays mines (Teemo style), and has a Demo Charge that deals half of a Towers health per use, 3 minute cooldown time, but his major weakness is that he doesn't really help with teamfights due to poor fighting skills?

So basically Goblin Techies? Everybody already hates him. I don't mind though, they can still lay some mines down mid-fight.

Also, orky character sounds awesome.

No, nothing like Techies, but seriously, WHY ISN'T THE TECHIES IN DOTA 2 YET!

God he looks fun.

The Mine skill owuld be the same, but the Demo Charge would be more oriented for structures ( deals moderate damage to people, 250% to Towers)

Hmm, that would be a really good pusher, but I feel that he may be overpicked then. Pusher strats are already really strong, and if you have other guys that summon loads of stuff/can damage buildings, it might go a bit overboard.

Big no on the absolute random hero. It sounds fun, yes. But MoBA's are aimed at competitive gaming, and having completely random elements that can actively kill you and your team is horrible. Not only that, but it would bring MOBA rage levels to all new heights.

For the rest.. mhm, well theres nothing wrong with the map. The main thing for maps is just that they need to be near perfect mirrors.

Soladrin wrote:Big no on the absolute random hero. It sounds fun, yes. But MoBA's are aimed at competitive gaming, and having completely random elements that can actively kill you and your team is horrible. Not only that, but it would bring MOBA rage levels to all new heights.

But why would this character have to be used during Comp play? Eve is never used for Comp Play, Spirit Breaker is never used for Comp play, and Dunkmaster Yi is outright banned. Not everything has to be completely based around Comp play, and I think that's one of the main problems with the Genre; Halo, one of the biggest MLG games, doesn't use half of whats in the game, but its there for the people who want to just muck about.

Your missing the point, moba's are inherently competitive, they have only one focus and it's winning. Having a hero that is purely based on randomness feth up your game is not a good thing.

Your mixing up competitive gaming with actual tournaments here. It has ranked play, therefore it is competitive. Not to mention the fact that winning directly contributes to your persistent profile in LoL.

Balance has to be done in the mindset of competitive play, however a random character can work. Simply put if picking it can potentially cost your team the game, you would see it in casual play then rarely if ever in competitive play outside of the lower levels. A decent example being Eve.

Even after the change from stun to slow she can work at times, however like all stealth based champions in that game, they get shut down hard when you reach a certain level on the competitive side due to people knowing the main counter to them is to get something to provide site on them. Their escape mechanism and engage mechanism are essentially walking up to or away from the target while not in view; grant view and they have nothing.

My point is the game changes between casual and competitive and even then it does more so depending on the level of the competitive play. However balance can be tricky to manage with these the easiest way is to look at what works and doesn't with the best players; who usually end up at the higher levels of that game's competitive environment. Don't believe it has an impact? Then explain why exactly LoL's meta is the way it is. It is not as it is the best, most feel forced to do it because that is what the pros do so it must be right. However the reasons are the jungle is a roamer and thus goes to each lane in turn to help give that lane a minor advantage, the caster is in the middle due to the lane being shorter and them generally having less sustain than the AD carry. Which then brings the reason why top lane is a tanky solo (to help combat the ganks) and bottom lane is a duo lane focusing on handing as much gold to the auto attack carry as possible, the reason is dragon control as it gives a significant amount of gold to the team that gets it and as it spawns much sooner than baron does. If the baron and the dragon swapped places, top would be the duo lane. The point is the competitive environment cannot help but influence the entire community for the game even unintentionally as even casual players will look up tips from time to time and the same advice trickles down to the rest. Therefore the best place to make balance is with the high level play in mind, sure the occasional stupid thing will slip through now and then largely unnoticed, but it will usually be ignored or counted as trolling if it comes from anywhere but the top.

TL;DR: I somewhat agree that they are inherently competitive, but that fun options that are uncompetitive can still fit in with this as they will be ignored by the competitive environment if they are not constantly viable.

Soladrin wrote:Your missing the point, moba's are inherently competitive, they have only one focus and it's winning. Having a hero that is purely based on randomness feth up your game is not a good thing.

Your mixing up competitive gaming with actual tournaments here. It has ranked play, therefore it is competitive. Not to mention the fact that winning directly contributes to your persistent profile in LoL.

@ Not_u, as well

Hmmm, good point. So instead of having him able to blow his entire team up (Low stun, High AOE and Damage), should he just always stun himself for a while if he "rolls Wrong"?

It shouldn't be that simple.

I mean, unless you want a game that has as much complexity as LoL (little to none).

So I need help with naming it.

The lore goes like this:

Humanity goes skyward due to it's own technology.
We spend 100s of years without finding anyone, amass a sort of Empire.
Meet The Council, a central Alien covenant where they DON'T kill eachother.
Request to join The Council.
Get challenged by a very war like alien race to "Honor Fight", get the crap kicked out of us.
Retaliate with Nukes.
Council intervenes, Earth gets glassed as punishment.
Humanity bounces back, as we usually do. We are deemed Parasitic by The Council.
Not having the strength to take on all the races of The Council, we end up getting nearly wiped out again.
We are subjected to a Genophage like procedure; we can no longer reproduce.
We perfect our Cloning technology, making us bounce back AGAIN.
This royally pisses off almost everyone on The Council, and they issue an ultimatum; if we find any group of humans whom number above X then we exterminate the entire species.
Humanity starts dealing incredibly harshly with Human Pirates.
We are forced to fight in a sort of Gladiator Arena that is toned back for Galactic Viewing.

Champions/Heroes shall be known as Gladiators, if that helps.

A sci-fi version of a MOBA would be an interesting change of pace.

Aye, everyone has guns/bows/whatnot.

The problem I'm having is creating AROUND those guns.

Howie, for instance, has his name derived from Howitzer. As you can imagine, I'm giving him the biggest gun in the game with a LOOOOOONG "reload" time. But what else do I give him after that?
Do I even need to give "Juggernaught" a weapon? He charges into enemies, pounds the ground, and goes nearly invulnerable for short durations of time. What kind of gun does he have to have?
What about "Vector", the afforementioned Stealth Push/Bomber? What kind of gun does he have?

You don't have to give a gun to everyone.

Swordwind wrote:You don't have to give a gun to everyone.

You are right.

I had an epiphany at work today; I'm trying to build AROUND LoL and DotA's design of four skills per character. This can not, it will not, work for my mod. I'mma going to have to completely figure out my own way of doing things, and I'm thinking I'm starting to do just that


Alright, so are there any characters that people really like? Like say the Master Cheif, Boba Fett, a Commisar, etc. that you guys would like to see? As I can't get started on the Map due to my computer not having a good hard drive and needing a new one, and I can't get started on the Mod yet due to not knowing how to program (The school I'm going to has classes ), I'm working on potential kits for characters.

So far I have:
A Predator
An Alien
Commisar
Boba Fett
Juggernaught
A SPG
A Covert Op
A Sniper
An Ork Mek
Eldar/Chaos Sorcerer with Webway/Warp powers
A Battery Pack, so to speak
A Dreadnaught


Next one I plan to add is a "Captain Reynolds", but after that, I have no idea.

Don't forget to add Jar Jar.

How wude.....

You are aware, that, even if it's just a joke, you need a generic space marine in there.

A Space Marine or a SPEHSS MAHREEN!?

Ok, So this is what an average character in the game will look like (lay-out wise):

RmC (Right Mouse Click): Flamethrower, hits everything within a distance and lights them on Fire for additional damage over five seconds.
LmC: Space Marine Jump Jets (Hop instead of flight)

1: Heat Seeker Missles: Shoots out two missles that seek out the closest On Fire Target. These missles will only launch if there is a an enemy on Fire within a 2000 distance. Prioritizes Gladiators.
2: Heat Vision: Passive: The Gladiator automatically sees any unit within a 2000 distance that is on Fire.

WASD moves. This particular character is an Assassin type; low health, high damage, get in, cause as much damage as possible, get out, shoot your rockets.

Sounds interesting. With their movement being on WASD should be a much more mobile. What about the others as just generic examples so far? Maybe LMC being a mobility based move for all of them or something, in most cases something like a quick sort of hop in whatever direction so as not to make it too annoying. I suppose then if able they should have a sort of meter just for it to keep it balanced. The tank for example could take a lot out of it for something like a short dodge roll.

Slarg232 wrote:A Space Marine or a SPEHSS MAHREEN!?

Spayse Mahreen in this case.

Well, it's actually more of a character specific thing (Shift + Direction is a Roll in the game I'm basing it off of anyway, so the roll/dodge function is already taken care of )

Another Generic Example is one of the tanks I'm working on: Low Health, Low damage, slow as hell, decent Health Regen.

RmC: Charges forward screaming (Think Berserkers from Gears of War) for as long as you hold it. Can not turn, but can tilt. Stuns anyone hit.
LmC: Smashes the ground, damaging and slowing everyone around him.

1: This Gladiator receives 75% less damage for X amount of time. Cooldown is long enough where he doesn't get to use it more than once a team fight, but he does get to use it EVERY team fight. (Sixty seconds? something like that).