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Ok, so imangine this little scenario. The entire SW chapter in battle. Logan Grimnar, their Chapter Master/Great Wolf, decrees a major thing,.like Exterminatus for example. Bjorn the Fellhanded, oldest warrior in the Imperium, who fought at Russ' side, opposes it with all his wolill and might. What would happen? Would the chapter bow to Grimnar or Fellhand? Would Grimnar concede? Would the chapter be split in two?

Chapter Master has over all control of the Chaper if Bjorn Fellhand gave an order that over rides that of Logan, Bjorn would be chastized and demoted if not just shot out right. Thats the way of marine Chapters, the Masters have the right to do or say any order and never be challenged by a lesser officer even if he is older. Age has nothing to do with Rank, as Rank is all that counts.

Wynne, that's insane.

Bjorn has been alive for 10,000 years. It would be foolish, almost downright stupid, to ignore his advice. He's more fought in battles than any other human will ever see.

Isn't Bjorn senile? Dreadnoughts lose their sanity, and Bjorn is the oldest dread there is.

Yeah, when it comes to Bjorn, even Grimnar might back down.

Bjorn is sleeping most of the time so it is pretty unlikely, but...

Also, Wynne, you are insane. The SW would never just shoot Bjorn for speaking out. I'm guessing you have no idea who Bjorn is.

Bjorn was Great Wolf long before Grimnar was, and Grimnar is a wise man. If Bjorn suggests something, Grimnar does it.

If Bjorn if over riding Lord Grimmar word, it would be for a good reason. The chapter would weight the words and follow throught with them.

He does have 10,000 years of experience and fought
beside the primarchs. He would not speak out of line lightly because it is great disrespect,and does undertsate the authority of the chapter master.

Only more reasons why his words would be taken much more heavily.

Grimnar has authority over Bjorn and Bjorn would never push him on something unless he believed it was genuinely foolish.
However, Bjorn is one of the wisest beings in the Imperium and Grimnar knows that, he wouldn't ignore Bjorn on anything...

I'd say it'd be neither, I'd go for Mr Ragnar Blackmane, he obviously is the most experienced out of all those in the Space Wolves chapter...

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I'd say it'd be neither, I'd go for Mr Ragnar Blackmane, he obviously is the least experienced wolf lord in the Space Wolves chapter...

Fixed that for you...

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I'd say it'd be neither, I'd go for Mr Ragnar Blackmane, he obviously is the most experienced out of all those in the Space Wolves chapter...

-.- False option. Chapter Master or oldest warrior who fought in the crusade next to Russ. Take your pick.

New scenario. Grimnar wants to protect innocents from being wiped by Inq for seeing Daemons, ie, Armageddon War 1. What if Bjorn says "Wise up, it is neseccary." Grimnar hates such practises to the point he'll go behind the Inquisition's back and get in their way to do it.

purplefood wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I'd say it'd be neither, I'd go for Mr Ragnar Blackmane, he obviously is the least experienced wolf lord in the Space Wolves chapter...

Fixed that for you...

But he does have plot armour thicker than even Bjorn's adamantium hull.

Deadshot wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I'd say it'd be neither, I'd go for Mr Ragnar Blackmane, he obviously is the most experienced out of all those in the Space Wolves chapter...

-.- False option. Chapter Master or oldest warrior who fought in the crusade next to Russ. Take your pick.

New scenario. Grimnar wants to protect innocents from being wiped by Inq for seeing Daemons, ie, Armageddon War 1. What if Bjorn says "Wise up, it is neseccary." Grimnar hates such practises to the point he'll go behind the Inquisition's back and get in their way to do it.

Grimnar's still in command...
It's unlikely Bjorn would be quite that jaded but if he did say that then Grimnar may take it into account or he may not, it's his choice.

Kain wrote:

purplefood wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I'd say it'd be neither, I'd go for Mr Ragnar Blackmane, he obviously is the least experienced wolf lord in the Space Wolves chapter...

Fixed that for you...

But he does have plot armour thicker than even Bjorn's adamantium hull.

Even though Bjorn has a 5++ plot armour save?

Ah, the age old question of the modern military. Does the young platoon commander Lieutenant smash on ahead ignoring his platoon Warrant's advice to seem like a true leader, or does he listen and follow the advice of the more experienced soldier, afraid of making him look less in command?

Whatever Grimnar says goes, but it'd be a poor move if it went against Bjorn. The fact is, Bjorn would still follow Grimnar's orders, but it would create a serious rift and make Grimnar look bad in front of the Chapter.

Grimnar has superiority, but it would be incredibly foolish to out-right ignore or contradict advice from Bjorn.

If Biorn ever disagreed with an order given by Grimnar, he'd voice them. Grimnar would take Biorns advice into consideration, and if he chose his original course of action, Biorn would follow Grimnars orders to the best of his ability.Biorn was the very first Great Wolf so he knows better than most that the chain of command is there for a reason. The Great Wolfs final word is law.

beezley1981 wrote:If Biorn ever disagreed with an order given by Grimnar, he'd voice them. Grimnar would take Biorns advice into consideration, and if he chose his original course of action, Biorn would follow Grimnars orders to the best of his ability.Biorn was the very first Great Wolf so he knows better than most that the chain of command is there for a reason. The Great Wolfs final word is law.

This is more likely the sinerio. After all in codex SW there is a bit about where Grimnar got all in a huff and started to act on his emotions and Ulrik talked him down. No harm no foul. Grimnar isn't who/where he is because he doesn't know whoms advice to listen to.

Bjorn - the ultimate advisor.

Logan - the ultimate shot caller.

CM > all, even if its Bjorn, he is as wise as anyone can be and give almost unparalleled knowledge but he cannot "dictate" the direction/action of the Chapter.

To the OP: .like Exterminatus for example. Bjorn the Fellhanded, oldest warrior in the Imperium, who fought at Russ' side, opposes it with all his wolill and might. What would happen?

A: Logan executes it with Bjorns "advice". If it needs to be done, it will be done.

Would the chapter bow to Grimnar or Fellhand?

A. Logan. He is Chapter Master. Whilst Bjorn is Venerable and without peer due to History, the CM must make the call, no matter the odds, otherwise, anarchy reignes.

It is when CMs get above themselves or do not listen to the Wise (such as Bjorn) that SMs turn or fail in their mission.

Would Grimnar concede? Would the chapter be split in two?

IMO, no, Grimnar, would never concede, he has been appointed by the 11 sub Masters (Im excluding the 13th here for obvious reasons) of the SWs and has ultimate authority.

Can his authority be challenged is the real question you want to ask.
Yes it can, if he is brutally wrong or misguided then Njal, Ulrik, Bjorn and the other 11 GWs can and should challenge him.

Due to the HH boks, the SWs are made out to be World Eater-esque butchers (which they are - when brought to battle)
But - they fight for an honourable reason - for Humanity.

Their methods are ultra harsh - but within a goal to help Humanity usrvive VS ALL threats.

In short! LG > Bjorn (I love Bjorn btw!).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Great thread idea btw OP, well done

LordWynne wrote:Chapter Master has over all control of the Chaper if Bjorn Fellhand gave an order that over rides that of Logan, Bjorn would be chastized and demoted if not just shot out right. Thats the way of marine Chapters, the Masters have the right to do or say any order and never be challenged by a lesser officer even if he is older. Age has nothing to do with Rank, as Rank is all that counts.

You don't know much about fluff then, especially Space Wolves. They are all allowed opinions and it would dishonour Russ to have his dissendants as a bunch of cowwing yes men. On an issue such as exterminus Logan would hold a council and expect honest answers from his men.

There are no fluff examples of summary executions in space marine fluff, so i don't understand where you made all this stuff up from.

BluntmanDC wrote:

LordWynne wrote:Chapter Master has over all control of the Chaper if Bjorn Fellhand gave an order that over rides that of Logan, Bjorn would be chastized and demoted if not just shot out right. Thats the way of marine Chapters, the Masters have the right to do or say any order and never be challenged by a lesser officer even if he is older. Age has nothing to do with Rank, as Rank is all that counts.

You don't know much about fluff then, especially Space Wolves. They are all allowed opinions and it would dishonour Russ to have his dissendants as a bunch of cowwing yes men. On an issue such as exterminus Logan would hold a council and expect honest answers from his men.

There are no fluff examples of summary executions in space marine fluff, so i don't understand where you made all this stuff up from.

SW would argue the arse off it, each Wolf Lord is very independent but they would follow Logan's ruling on it...
However if one of them went against that the Company may be cast out...the 'Red Eagle' or something similar...
AFAIK it involves breaking your ribs and pulling your lungs out through your back...

Bjorn or 'bear' as he is known in the HH series book Prospero Burns is now the chapters most precious relic and the most level headed advisor of the SW chapter so I think if Bjorn has something to say about a current plan of action it would carry some serious weight. But at the end of the day it all comes down to the great wolfs ruling and bjorn would/will always follow every order to the letter. In short bjorn is an advisor and a glimpse into the past but aside from that he is a soldier and one that takes orders not one that gives them.

Ok, so new question.

How would the chapter itself react? At a personal level I mean.

I suppose they would act out of loyalty to the all father (the emperor) and side with logan

Deadshot wrote:Ok, so new question.

How would the chapter itself react? At a personal level I mean.

To the exterminatus thing?
They'd probably agree with Grimnar...
SW deeply respect those that fight alongside them against the enemies of the Imperium.
That's part of the reason they dislike the DA, they see them as fighting their own personal war rather than the war against Chaos/Xenos.

Well thin back to when the great wolf got pissed off with the imperium for making a whole planet enter. Work camps because chaos invaded the world on which they lived he only didn't kill the person responsible because of ulrik and his advice.
Also when the administratum went to their world on complaints.and then got fired on by the SW they then returned with SoB and still got fired on and then the administratum ran away like coward after a week of hell from the SW

Well, someone mentioned the HH series, and now I mention Battle for the Fang.

when Bjorn learned about the tempering, he was pissed off at not being consulted about it and stated that he'd be against it. that didn't meant it should be destroyed and never talked about.

What I think it's that Bjorn would be a 13rd vote when the Wolf Lords debate.

pretre wrote:Yeah, when it comes to Bjorn, even Grimnar might back down.

spoilers for The Emperor's Gift ahoy !



I cannot recommend this book enough. IIRC it's out now, go buy it !

the dark king wrote:Bjorn or 'bear' as he is known in the HH series book Prospero Burns is now the chapters most precious relic and the most level headed advisor of the SW chapter so I think if Bjorn has something to say about a current plan of action it would carry some serious weight. But at the end of the day it all comes down to the great wolfs ruling and bjorn would/will always follow every order to the letter. In short bjorn is an advisor and a glimpse into the past but aside from that he is a soldier and one that takes orders not one that gives them.

Bjorn "Bear" Bjornson?
It's pretty ridiculous to call him bear since Bjorn means bear in Scandinavia.

Björn in Swedish
Bjørn in Norwegian snd Danish

Gargantuan wrote:

the dark king wrote:Bjorn or 'bear' as he is known in the HH series book Prospero Burns is now the chapters most precious relic and the most level headed advisor of the SW chapter so I think if Bjorn has something to say about a current plan of action it would carry some serious weight. But at the end of the day it all comes down to the great wolfs ruling and bjorn would/will always follow every order to the letter. In short bjorn is an advisor and a glimpse into the past but aside from that he is a soldier and one that takes orders not one that gives them.

Bjorn "Bear" Bjornson?
It's pretty ridiculous to call him bear since Bjorn means bear in Scandinavia.

Björn in Swedish
Bjørn in Norwegian snd Danish

Hawser (if I recall correctly this lad's name spelling) calls him "Bear" (he uses the imperial gothic word, but it's English in the book) since when he got the Fenrisian language imprinted in his brain, the names of animals weren't included.

Comparing Bjorn to a non comm or warrant officer isn't the most accurate comparison. You have to take into account that until his internment as a Dreadnought he was the great wolf. It seems as though his role is more of, Lord Emeritus (that really likes to sleep a lot.)

it depends on whether they respect russ. if they think russ wasnt good why would they respect his battle brother and also, Bjorn is stuck inside a dreadnought, he is in no position to lead a rebellion