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If you read the background/novels that include Space Marines, they are truly the Angels of Death. The codex completely nerfs and underpowers them. I think it would be amazing if rules were made for the Space Marines in canon. I would price them rather expensively and make them much stronger and have multiple weapon options. I miss the old Veteran Squads which you could arm them much more freely. Who wouldn't want to play a commando squad of Space Marines? Does anyone else like this idea? Also, add some possible rules, or if there are rules for an army like this please post them.

Just Google search for Movie Marines

/endthread

Valkyrie wrote:Just Google search for Movie Marines

/endthread

This.

Also, its the marines in the other sources that are overpowered, not the in-game versions that are underpowered. Space marines are great and all that, but a single marine able to take on hundreds of guardsmen just doesn't happen. Marines strength lies in their coordination and synergy of squads and companies with interlaced support. The codex shows that quite well, its the books and games that show Space marines as near gods in combat.

Books are closer to probable canon than the TT is on a scale. Both are off, mind you; Physics, combat experience/martial arts/dueling, and conservation of energy really don't like the 40K universe, but again, having 16 awesome models with unique stories and amazing stats is not as good a sales tactic as having 60 nameless ones that cost just as much.

Vulkan's Forgemaster wrote:If you read the background/novels that include Space Marines, they are truly the Angels of Death. The codex completely nerfs and underpowers them. I think it would be amazing if rules were made for the Space Marines in canon. I would price them rather expensively and make them much stronger and have multiple weapon options. I miss the old Veteran Squads which you could arm them much more freely. Who wouldn't want to play a commando squad of Space Marines? Does anyone else like this idea? Also, add some possible rules, or if there are rules for an army like this please post them.

I often feel the same way. For the sake of game balance, of course, you can't really have 'canon' space marines be playable; but I've actually taken a whack at writing balanced by powered-up, fluff-compatible CSM rules before. A link to the thread if you want to read it: Traitor Legionnaires [/shameless plug]

I need to finish those up one of these days, too. But yes, It would certainly be interesting to try for balanced 'fluff-Marine' rules; not the Movie Marines, those are just kind of dumb.

A quick suggestion for a basic statline;

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv3+

Wargear:
Power armor (3+/5++ save; not too attached to the Inv. save, that could be dropped.)
Bolt pistol
Chainsword (Rending CCW)
Bolter (S4 AP5 24" Assault 2)
Assault grenades
Krak grenades

Special Rules:
ATSKNF
Acute Senses
Counter-Attack (possibly)

After that, other bonuses confer to specialist troops. Assault Marines should have FC, Devastators should have Tank Hunters (assuming these still exist in 6th Ed anyway, haven't gotten the new BBB yet), etc.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Vulkan's Forgemaster wrote:If you read the background/novels that include Space Marines, they are truly the Angels of Death. The codex completely nerfs and underpowers them. I think it would be amazing if rules were made for the Space Marines in canon. I would price them rather expensively and make them much stronger and have multiple weapon options. I miss the old Veteran Squads which you could arm them much more freely. Who wouldn't want to play a commando squad of Space Marines? Does anyone else like this idea? Also, add some possible rules, or if there are rules for an army like this please post them.

I often feel the same way. For the sake of game balance, of course, you can't really have 'canon' space marines be playable; but I've actually taken a whack at writing balanced by powered-up, fluff-compatible CSM rules before. A link to the thread if you want to read it: Traitor Legionnaires [/shameless plug]

I need to finish those up one of these days, too. But yes, It would certainly be interesting to try for balanced 'fluff-Marine' rules; not the Movie Marines, those are just kind of dumb.

A quick suggestion for a basic statline;

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv3+

Wargear:
Power armor (3+/5++ save; not too attached to the Inv. save, that could be dropped.)
Bolt pistol
Chainsword (Rending CCW)
Bolter (S4 AP5 24" Assault 2)
Assault grenades
Krak grenades

Special Rules:
ATSKNF
Acute Senses
Counter-Attack (possibly)

After that, other bonuses confer to specialist troops. Assault Marines should have FC, Devastators should have Tank Hunters (assuming these still exist in 6th Ed anyway, haven't gotten the new BBB yet), etc.

I pretty much did the same thing, but gave veterans actual boosts in skills, so vanguard vets are WS 5, while sternguard are BS 5, and terminator armour boosted strength and toughness by 1 in addition to the saves. Costed average marines at like 25-30 points, vets at about 35-45, and terminators at about 65. Also, perhaps some rule that lowers the leadership of enemy units would be a neat idea. I mean, these are the Angels of Death, created by the God Emperor of Man, you would be a fool not to be scared of them.

Overall, I would say they are good in individual scenarios, but if the codex was made like that from scratch it would be annoying as hell. Also killing a super terminator (S5, T5) feels like an actual accomplishment. It isn't just "Oh I shot 3 BS 4 plasma guns at it and it died", I shot everything at the squad and slowly whittled them down before running the last one over when he attempted death or glory against one of my tanks and failed.

If you want to see Marines in all their power armored glory, might I also suggest you take a look at Deathwatch. Its an RPG from Fantasy Flight that really shows off the fluffy versions of Marines in a setting where individuals can shine, its a great game, I GM it for our RPG group.

In Warhammer 40k lore space marines are portrayed as invincible, near unstoppable military force. Yet on the tabletop battlefield they are butt-kicked fairly often. Why so? Is it a game balance issue, with game mechanics purposefully toning down power of space marines to make game competitive? Many think so, it even led to “movie marines stats”.
I, to the contrary, think it is not the case, and the difference in awesomeness of space marines in lore and in the game are due to difference in circumstances, as I will argue below:
In the lore…
Most common opponents for everyone are either orks, heretic militia or imperial guard, i.e. massed and poorly armored. Consequently everyone gears up to kill them, and is ill – equipped to fight well armored Space marines.
But on the tabletop
Most common opponents fore everyone are either space marines, or “marine – equivalent”, Consequently everyone gears up to kill them, and are well equipped to deal with Space marines.
In the lore…
Space marines usually fight individually weak foes, like heretic, mutants, orks and lesser tyranid critters, making individually powerful marines shine.
But on the tabletop
Space marines usually fight foes at least as powerful as themselves, i.e. other space marines, ork nobz, demons, etc.
In the lore…
Space marines usually take their opponents by surprise, gaining obvious advantage.
But on the tabletop
Most battles are stand-offs with opponent knowing whom they will face in advance.
In the lore…
Space marine commanders are veterans of hundred years of war, adept in every tactic and strategy.
But on the tabletop
Space marine commanders are as experienced as any other army’s, sometimes less so as Space marines are seen as noob-friendly army.

Guess you've never played AD&D, huh? In the rare event that they made stats for a book character, it didn't always play out how it did in the book. Statiscally, Drizzt would have never been able to defeat the hook horror when he did in the novel, he was too low level to touch it. Similarly, the rules would have never allowed him to to dual wield scimitars. However, all this attention to the details of the game would have ruined a great series of books.

Just like with Space Marines. How boring would the books be if it went like this, "and half of his squad remained locked in combat with a dozen orks. Now two of the terminators were lost to shoota bullets before being bashed with choppas." The books have no part in the game, otherwise 5 space marines and a chaplain would be able to defeat an ork army numbering in the thousands that an Imperial Guard regiment couldn't.

Or, if this doesn't end this thread, how about this:400 points: 1 space marine sergeant, I10 power fist, combi-everything, fleet, stealth,know no fear, jump, monstrous creature, extra attack every 3rd successful wound, 15 wounds.
close enough to what they have in the books?

Ratliker wrote:In Warhammer 40k lore space marines are portrayed as invincible, near unstoppable military force. Yet on the tabletop battlefield they are butt-kicked fairly often. Why so? Is it a game balance issue, with game mechanics purposefully toning down power of space marines to make game competitive? Many think so, it even led to “movie marines stats”.
I, to the contrary, think it is not the case, and the difference in awesomeness of space marines in lore and in the game are due to difference in circumstances, as I will argue below:
In the lore…
Most common opponents for everyone are either orks, heretic militia or imperial guard, i.e. massed and poorly armored. Consequently everyone gears up to kill them, and is ill – equipped to fight well armored Space marines.
But on the tabletop
Most common opponents fore everyone are either space marines, or “marine – equivalent”, Consequently everyone gears up to kill them, and are well equipped to deal with Space marines.
In the lore…
Space marines usually fight individually weak foes, like heretic, mutants, orks and lesser tyranid critters, making individually powerful marines shine.
But on the tabletop
Space marines usually fight foes at least as powerful as themselves, i.e. other space marines, ork nobz, demons, etc.
In the lore…
Space marines usually take their opponents by surprise, gaining obvious advantage.
But on the tabletop
Most battles are stand-offs with opponent knowing whom they will face in advance.
In the lore…
Space marine commanders are veterans of hundred years of war, adept in every tactic and strategy.
But on the tabletop
Space marine commanders are as experienced as any other army’s, sometimes less so as Space marines are seen as noob-friendly army.

^^^^ this. I haven't read a ton of books but in the ones i have read this s how it was. I always imagine as well that; yes the models are veteran but as stated all their other battle have been the equivalent of 1000pts vs 200pts or similar. Table top is like the final conflict, both sides on equal footing for an epic confrontation.

Vulkan's Forgemaster wrote:If you read the background/novels that include Space Marines, they are truly the Angels of Death. The codex completely nerfs and underpowers them.

This depends entirely on who is writing them and from what perpective and has gotten more and more out of proportion over time. Treat a good deal of this fluff as exaggeration.

Does anyone else like this idea? Also, add some possible rules, or if there are rules for an army like this please post them.

I'd rather not play against an army made entirely of what basically are Vulkan He'Stan's.

The Mad Tanker wrote:If you want to see Marines in all their power armored glory, might I also suggest you take a look at Deathwatch. Its an RPG from Fantasy Flight that really shows off the fluffy versions of Marines in a setting where individuals can shine, its a great game, I GM it for our RPG group.

To be fair, Deathwatch is pretty much "300" as an RPG, but with Space Marines, and without literally an entire platoon of guardsmen shooting as one, a Space Marine is literally immune to small arms fire, which is silly, as marines can certainly be killed by such weapons. They also had to nerf it a whole lot in the Errata as basic bolters ended up being more powerful than plasma guns, guard vehicle mounted heavy bolters, krak grenades, etc.