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I was talking with some friends of mine. We where 3 Nid players, two old school, me who is not so into the canon and history of warhammer and a friend of me who doss not play IG. The topic was MC's and my old school friends told me that they where so disapointed with the MC's. Tyranids should be the best codex at MC's they claimed, since they have the moast of it. They where a bit disapointed that grey knights 2+ save MC, chaos marines daemon princes, blood angel mephiston and the superior daemons in the daemon codex are eating into the big monster chunk. In my opinnion, the best way to play nids is withouth all the MC's, tervigon excluded.

However, one thing that I do feel is that MC's are not that good, and I usualy feel that when you are introduced to MC's you are thinking you are going to smash things, but in reallaty you are chasing a lott of model that fall back and shoot you... I do not know, I am just baffeled by the expectasions of an MC and the actual experience with them.

I don't agree that Tyranids should automatically have the best Monstrous Creatures.

As far as my experience goes, I play Daemons and I have always enjoyed using my MCs. I've almost played them with Wings, so mobility hasn't really been an issue. I've found them to be durable and versatile (I run Tzeentch Princes, Fateweaver and a Bloodthirster).

Well I agree that they should not have the best MC's. That would be cutting into chaos daemons part of the flavor pie. Flying daemons, hell yes. Tyranids currently has some of the best MC's in the game with the trygon, tervigon and the dakka hivetyrant (not a fan of the flying one) and the swarmlord. (Although I myself am not a fan of Mr. Swarm.) But I should think that Tyranids and Daemons should have the best MC's, and certanly the moast MC's. What is the use of playing tyranids if everyone has MC's? What si left is the swarm aspect.

But would I not give to have something like dreadknights or mephiston in my tyranid codex.

However, my problem is rather more that I think MC's underperform. I at least try to avoid them in my tyranid lists exept the tervigon (who I shall agree might be undercosted... (I find it hard to put a propper price on that MC, yes he makes babies. On the other hand he takes some of thise with him when it dies and also it is rubbish at fighting. ws3, i1, 3 attacks. It can smash landraiders now, so that is posetive.)

I think a big part of it is as they run out of design space, they start to add stuff that should really belongs in another codex or should be a lot more pricy. It sells models and dose keep they game interesting. The cost is of course homogenizing all the codex.

As a daemon player I was always kinda envious of the nids MC, we get an invul save but, they get a lot better stat line for the point and cover is not that hard to come by.

I think the Issue is you pay a lot for killing power that often dies before it gets a chance to use it. That added to the lack in durability when compared to what you could by with the points often leaves other options stronger. Wings helped a lot because they made the high S low rate of fire weapons that are strong against MC less likely to hit.

They are still fun at least.

 Niiai wrote:
However, my problem is rather more that I think MC's underperform. I at least try to avoid them in my tyranid lists exept the tervigon (who I shall agree might be undercosted... (I find it hard to put a propper price on that MC, yes he makes babies. On the other hand he takes some of thise with him when it dies and also it is rubbish at fighting. ws3, i1, 3 attacks. It can smash landraiders now, so that is posetive.)

I haven't found my Daemon MCs to underperform at all. They are reliable killers of vehicles and infantry at range and in CC, with wings they are highly moble, skyfire platforms. I don't run a Flying Circus list, but at 2000 points I have four FMCs and I haven't been less than happy with them since 6th came out.

My son plays 'Nids, and he uses Trygons and Hive Tyrants (one with wings and sometimes the Swarmlord). He just started including one Tervigon and his list is tough.

from the DE perspective, our MCs are garbage. Too slow for the army. Not tough enough to stand punchishment. Not deadly enough to justify their cost. Just kind of oo shiny

Not to say that we have the best, but don't think Tyranids are that bad as far as MC's go? I've played nids since second and if anything there are more big MC's now than there ever was back then.

Also we have some pretty unique stuff. The SL will kill anything in the game just about and has great army support so he's not wasted like some cc machines. Trygons/Mawlocs have a great role and are fairly fast MC's with nice little embellishment abilities (admittingly not game changing). Dakkafexes are still awesome with or without the pod (though I do agree they are a little pricey), and the T-Fex technically has a 2+ and some okay abilities I guess, but for his cost there's not much hope in defending him.

I think the biggest change that I've noticed (played since 2nd) is the strategy that is involved with tyranid lists. Use to you just had 60 termagants followed by 40-60 hormogants, then genestealers and warriors...then maybe a couple carnifexes and a hive tyrant. Once you get your ranks established you just walk across the board. Nowadays if you did that you'd be tabled turn 2.

Amen drummerboy :-) I like your optimism though.

I think what is getting me the fact that I think MC oooo shiny! While my opponents are doing the same thing, only they brought guns and are hugging the table edge like a sue-side jumper who changed his mind but don't dare to get back in.

IG, GK and DE seems to be my main conserns regarding MC's survivabilaty. And while I do think the flying dakka tyrant is cool (come on, NOTHING comes close to 12 re-rollable S6 attacks) it does cost some 260 points, has 4 wounds and no invonerabilaty save. One grounding test and he is out of there.

Flying MC's: Daemon Codex does it better.
Best MC: Nemesis dreadknight
WTF, why dont we have -that-?: Mephiston

I would just...I gues I would like to know how to use MC's in a competative enviorment.

nids competitive.

Flyrant
Flyrant or The Big Guy

2-3 Tervigon Troop choices. The Heavy support ones are lackluster as they don't offer up much you don't already have.

Scoring MC's are pretty ridonculous, especially when the spit/poop out more scoring units.

 Niiai wrote:
Amen drummerboy :-) I like your optimism though.

I think what is getting me the fact that I think MC oooo shiny! While my opponents are doing the same thing, only they brought guns and are hugging the table edge like a sue-side jumper who changed his mind but don't dare to get back in.

IG, GK and DE seems to be my main conserns regarding MC's survivabilaty. And while I do think the flying dakka tyrant is cool (come on, NOTHING comes close to 12 re-rollable S6 attacks) it does cost some 260 points, has 4 wounds and no invonerabilaty save. One grounding test and he is out of there.

Flying MC's: Daemon Codex does it better.
Best MC: Nemesis dreadknight
WTF, why dont we have -that-?: Mephiston

I would just...I gues I would like to know how to use MC's in a competative enviorment.

Ymargls, DoM, dakkafex in a pod, or devourer gants in a pod. You need to overwhelm people that like to sit back. Sure turn 1 will go the way they want and you will have to focus on moving into/out of cover etc. If you drop a pod with a dakka fex, the doom, and some Ymargls on the table then your opponents will have way too much to deal with which will free up the rest of your army. Also I have gotten to where I pretty much don't field any MC's that can't shoot well other than the SL...Tyranids are surprisingly good shooters considering how much damage we can do in cc. Also run your tervi's and focus on getting iron arm. That seems to be pretty crucial.

Other than that I would have to know what a typical list for you would look like to offer any help.

As far as your rankings go, the flyrant's rules/costs are a little dated for the current rules so I"m sure that will be fixed eventually. He's still damn good though. Best MC I still say goes to the Tervigon, he scores and poops out free units that also score. All that said I do think that in the next codex release they will do something crazy to bring nid MC's back to the top...I predict tyrannofexes will be awesomely broken so everyone that glued has to buy new models.

Don't forget Spyders! They are so inexpensive!

Monstrous creatures were trash by the end of 5th edition due to a variety of reasons. They didn't have enough attacks to take down tanks in CC (usually the place they shine), the couldn't get cover easily, there was a high proliferation of poisoned weapons (DE), and low initiative creatures would die horrible deaths to JotWW.

6th edition marks an age in which monstrous creatures are not only useable again, but very good.

Taking down tanks in close combat is now incredibly easy for them. Cover is easy to get, and they should almost always have it. Dark Eldar Venom spam is all but done on the competitive level. Jaws still hurts, but many MCs will have a 5+ deny the witch. Essentially, the main issues which hurt them before are now largely mitigated.

For the record, I think that a well run Tyrannid list is one of the best armies in 6th. Flyrants, Swarmlord, Tervigons, and Trygons are all very good. Dakkafexes aren't bad either. The ability to roll for biomancy is what really buffs the army in general.

The bigger MCs generally could benefit a lot from some revamps.

Giving assault grenades equivalents to them would make a lot of sense. It's a bit ridiculous that a terrifying Trygon or Daemon Prince is literally bursting effortlessly through ruins and forests, but then slows down to hit last in combat.

The Daemon Prince should get an extra point of Toughness.

DE monstrous creatures are also really odd. They should either move like Beasts if keeping the current statline or get a LOT more wounds if they remain slow.

Thank you Sephyr. I do not like it when my MC's get killed by a lott of guardsmen in mellee.

I dunno,

When I see a fast moving MC deployed well forward on the opposite side of the table, I tend to get very, very concerned.

I do agree that Tyranids hould do MC's best, but not that they necessarily should have the best MCs. I think they should have good MCs, but more importantly they should be relatively low cost so that they can field them in the same density that mechanized armies field tanks and transports without totally compromising the swarms of tyranid little creatures.