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Hi everyone ! So I might be beegining csm in a near furture, and I wanted to know what we're the general tactics/build and models people consider useful. Fluff side, I pretty damn love World Eaters, Night Lords and the Black Legion (I would also like the Iron Warriors if it wasn't for the damn money price of the vehicules). Model side, I pretty damn love everything (but mostly the cheapest models ^^). So I also have a few more precise questions :

1- Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord/sorcerer ?
2-What is the best mark for a melee Daemon Prince ?
3-Are the Warpsmith and Dark Apostle useful ?
4-What is the best mark for Chosen ?
5-Chosen : elite shooting or melee ? Mark of Khorne or Nurgle
6-Forgefiend, havocs or obliterators ?
7-Warp Talons or Raptors ?
8-Cultist or Chaos Space Marines ?
9-What is the best Icon for CC ?

Dont get a DP, they are too expensive and not effective enough. Go for a lord or a sorcerer, both excellent options

If you want a DP, give him a black mace and MoN (Tzeench can be ok too)

Warpsmiths and DA are not really useful

Chosen are probably best with MoN, although MoS with IoE can be made a case for if it is a full unit.

Chosen make great elite shooting that can do combat. Just never give them any combat weapons, they are too expensive.

Forgefiends, havocs with autocannons or lascannons or obliterators can all work. Probably best to max out one one rather than mix and match

Neither warp talons or raptors are very good. Bikes are awesome.

You should have Cultists AND CSM, unless you are going plague marines or chosen as troops in which case those AND cultists

Khorne, slanesh, and undivided icons are all great for combat, depends on the unit though. Tzeench and nurgle icons universally suck.

Kk. Here are other questions :

1-Kharn or Chaos Lord with MoK ?
2-Chosen or Hellbrute as shooting elite ?
3-Terminators, are they good ?
4-What is a good load-out for bikers ?

 Khornate25 wrote:
Kk. Here are other questions :

1-Kharn or Chaos Lord with MoK ?
2-Chosen or Hellbrute as shooting elite ?
3-Terminators, are they good ?

if you want a foot lord then take Kharn, but a Khorne Lord with AoBF+sigil on a jugger can go with bikes or spawn can be more effective

really nothing in the elites section is all that good. To be competitive you are going to want to max out your FA and HS slots and have lots of troops before you think about taking any elites.

Chosen are really great when they are troops but kinda redundent with CSM when elites.
Helbrutes can be useful in certain lists
Terminators can work, with MoT or MoK perhaps. cheap termicide is still useful as well.

Other than that, the culttroops(not taken as troops), possessed, and mutilators are probably best left at home.

Thx ^^

1- The Chaos Lord has gotten a boost recently. Cheap, killy and flexible. You can get Nurgle mark to make him immune to ID from S8-9 weapons (most poiwerfists), or put him on a boke for the same bonus plus great mobility. Unlocking cult troops is also great.

2-Khorne and Tzeentch are better for Princes. Getting the Black Mace or the Axe of Blind Fury also works well, but in general DPS are seen as too expensive for what they bring now.

3- Warpsmiths and DA are merely average in a slot where you need amazing models, thanks to the forced challenge system.

4 and 5- Chosen are best kept cheap so you can have a second squad. Stacking special weapons that you need and getting a rhino is usually enough. But if you really want to boost them, Nurgle helps them live a bit longer against S4 weapons and lower. If you make melee chosen (though that is hideously expensive), Slaanesh is great to let you swing those power swords and lightning clas before other marines.

6- Depends on what you need. Havocs are most efficient when spamming autocannons, which are great for opening most transports, shredding tough but unarmored targets (hard boys, orks in general, some MCs), and flyers too. Te Forgefiend can put out murderous volumes of fire, but is not that accurate and can go down very easily to a single lascannon. Oblits have low volume of fire, but amazing saves and weapon choices. And if you give them the Mark of Nurgle, they can laugh off melta and lascannon shots.

7- Warp Talons are hideously expensive and not that great. Their special ability requires a very risky Deep Strike and even then it's easy to resist. They may be good to jump toward rear infantry like Long Fangs and Rangers, but that's a reach. Raptors are cheaper, can actually carry special weapons and have cheaper marks.

8- Depend on how many points you have to spare. Cultists don't do that much by themselves, but can be a cheap objective holder. If you really want to spam them, you may be able to swarm some enemies, but you'll lack firepower. On the other Hand CSM have become cheaper now (and a little worse), meaning you can have more 3+ T4 guys on the table tossing melta and plasma around. Cultists are good if you have 60 points left and could use another scoring unit or bubblewrap.

9-Icons are a bit too expensive right now and can be sniped. But if you like them, the Khorne Icon that let you re-roll charge range can mean the difference between crushing the enemy or sititng down and being shot off the board. The Slaanesh FNP icon is also good. The Fear icon is entirely and ridiculously useless.

-I like Kharn a lot, but he requires a Land Raider to be fully effective. He'll die to any S8 hit, but he kills stuff like a champ if my makes it to CC. However, you can do some very cool things with a Kohrne Lord. You can get a Juggernaut to make him T5, fast and a beast in combat, especially if you add the Axe of Blinding Fury: S6, AP2, T5 and with 6-11 attacks each turn. Or put him on a bike. Or get him wings to fly with your Raptors if they are marked Khorne.

-The Hellbrute is a cool model, but he's...fragile. He doesn't have a good long-range version (dual autocannons) and has no drop pod delivery, so he can't quite sit back and will get punched through if he walks forward. Chosen can get a rhino and extra bodies to last longer and spam more weapons.

-Terminators are not bad and you can do some great weapon combos on them. However, they have crap invulnerable saves and their ride, the Chaos Land Raider, has poor capacity and a big price tag.

-Bikers really depend on what you want them for. Facing hordes? Get two flamers, a combi-flamer on the champion, and Mark of Khorne. Dealing with heavy mech? Double melta, Mark of Nurgle to give them T6 and a Power Fist on the champ. Or mix and match depending on your meta: double plasma to face Tyranid MC spam or walking Grey Knights...

I tend to run a Termie Lord with Nurgle mark and plague marines, a couple 10-mans of cultists to absorb fire, maybe a sorc, and either regular CSMs or Bikes. Heldrakes have been MVPs in every game I've used them. Get as much plasma and metla as possible.

Cultists are cheap and i used them in a few games as an objective holder, I had a 30 man cultist blob, and the y took the center objective against a battle suit tau player. Pretty much the only way to get rid of them are blast weapons, which he didn't have. They are also good for tying up important enemies, if he is dumb enough to attack them, until your cavalry arrive.

 Khornate25 wrote:
Hi everyone ! So I might be beegining csm in a near furture, and I wanted to know what we're the general tactics/build and models people consider useful. Fluff side, I pretty damn love World Eaters, Night Lords and the Black Legion (I would also like the Iron Warriors if it wasn't for the damn money price of the vehicules). Model side, I pretty damn love everything (but mostly the cheapest models ^^). So I also have a few more precise questions :

1- Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord/sorcerer ?
2-What is the best mark for a melee Daemon Prince ?
3-Are the Warpsmith and Dark Apostle useful ?
4-What is the best mark for Chosen ?
5-Chosen : elite shooting or melee ? Mark of Khorne or Nurgle
6-Forgefiend, havocs or obliterators ?
7-Warp Talons or Raptors ?
8-Cultist or Chaos Space Marines ?
9-What is the best Icon for CC ?

1. They're all pretty good. The prince is pricey, though, and easier to shoot down if you don't play on boards with good LOS-blocking terrain.
2. They're all decent. Khorne gives you access to the Axe of Blind Rage, which costs you 1pt of WS, but makes you S8, S9 on the charge, and gives you more attacks. That's pretty brutal. Tzeentch makes you more durable by re-rolling 1s to save, which is pretty awesome. Nurgle gives Shrouding, which gives you +2 to cover saves; this is AWESOME in terms of surviving enemy shooting, as Ruins and Hill crests (two of the most common types of terrain) both normally give 4+ cover, so Shrouding improves that to 2+. The only thing which prevents me from recommending Nurgle as the best is that it also makes you Slow & Purposeful, which means you can't Sweeping Advance. Definitely a downside for a melee beatstick unit.
3. Dark Apostle could be cool, and Warpsmith is a cheap assault character, but I haven't fielded either yet.
4. Nurgle, if you're marking them. I probably wouldn't, to keep the cost down, but if you do, making those expensive guys more durable is probably the way to go.
5. Shooting, with melee as a backup option. Their best quality is being able to take a pile of special weapons for shooting. I probably still wouldn't field them except in a list with Abaddon to make them Troops so they score.
6. Havocs and Oblits are both great. Havocs get you cheap heavy weapons- 4 autocannons for as cheap as 115, and you can be as high as Ld10 with the Veteran upgrade. Oblits get a nice variety of weapons, and a 2+ armor save. Mark of Nurgle is pretty much compulsory on Oblits to make S8 and S9 weapons not inflict Instant Death on them.
7. Warp Talons are garbage. Raptors are decent, but Bikes do pretty much the same job better.
8. They do different jobs. Cultists are excellent cheap scoring but can't kill anything. CSMs can fight a bit, and can survive better in mid-field closer to the enemy, but cost more.
9. Excess is probably the best, though. FNP is a big help, especially for expensive models.

 Khornate25 wrote:
1-Kharn or Chaos Lord with MoK ?
2-Chosen or Hellbrute as shooting elite ?
3-Terminators, are they good ?
4-What is a good load-out for bikers ?

1. Depends on how you're getting him to the enemy. Kharn needs a transport. A Chaos Lord with MoK can ride a Juggernaut and join a unit of Spawn, which is a pretty great and fast delivery system. You can arm him with the Axe or the Black Mace. I actually started playing with one using the Black Mace AND a regular Power Axe, so he can go AP2 if the situation calls for it. Pretty brutal.
2. Chosen, probably. Although your best shooting generally comes from HS (Havocs, Oblits), and FA (Heldrake with baleflamer).
3. Mixed, now. More expensive upgrades kind of suck compared to the old codex, and not having teleport homers absolutely blows. You're best off not even deep striking them unless the scenario really makes it necessary. Just walk them up the field.
4. Some kind of power weapon on the champ, and two special weapons of choice. Double flamers, double meltas, or double plasma are all good options. Mark of Khorne is good to throw a huge number of attacks. Mark of Nurgle is good for durability. Mark of Slaanesh is good for I5 but mostly because it allows you to take the Icon of Excess, which is HUGELY valuable on bikers. If you want to keep them cheap, no mark or icon is probably best, but if you want to make them really badass, I think Slaanesh with Excess is the most powerful. The other combo this (or unmarked) opens up is attaching a Slaaneshi Lord or Sorcerer on a Steed of Slaanesh. This allows the whole unit to Outflank, which is literally the only way to Outflank in the entire codex. Optionally give the character the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, so the turn you arrive you can hit something with the torrent flamer and the bikes' guns, and then be ready to assault on the following turn.