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Have Vanilla Space Marines always been a Mid-tier army like they were in 5th (and remain in 6th until their new codex)? I've only ever read their most recent codex so have previous versions ever been more powerful?

They've always been a middle of the road codex, they are the bar by which all other codices are judged.

Yeah like he said Codex marines are one of the most solid codexs out there, simply because its...well...vanilla haha

They can do any thing but they wont do it better then any one else which is what makes them so good. you can adapts to any situation.

You want a shooty army? They can do that with a MotF you want a bike army? we got you, tank army? not a problem. Assault army? Kinda rocky but still can be done.

In my opinion other than Vulkan builds and even those have issues, Marines are one of the weaker codexes right now. Tactical squads are woefully ineffective when you compare their points cost to other armies troop picks.

There are 2 lists that Vanilla does better than anyone else.

1) Vulkan lists

2) Bikes(although once DAs drop that may change)

Vanilla Bike lists are one of the unique things the codex can do.

The TH/SS terminators are also the cheapest there is.

From my perspectice normal space marines were really powerful in 4th edition. What really hurt them was the mass proliferation of power weapons in 5th and the making of cheaper better versions of MEQ.

As far as now in 6th, I think the codex has everything you need in it to build several different types of very competative list. The codex is not as forgiving on the table top as some others so you need to know what your doing.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There are 2 lists that Vanilla does better than anyone else.

1) Vulkan lists

2) Bikes(although once DAs drop that may change)

Vanilla Bike lists are one of the unique things the codex can do.

The TH/SS terminators are also the cheapest there is.

Let us not forget their ability to exploit the morale rules with Combat Tactics.

reaper with no name wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There are 2 lists that Vanilla does better than anyone else.

1) Vulkan lists

2) Bikes(although once DAs drop that may change)

Vanilla Bike lists are one of the unique things the codex can do.

The TH/SS terminators are also the cheapest there is.

Let us not forget their ability to exploit the morale rules with Combat Tactics.

I think that, given my continual use of the Space Marines codex, I'm gonna have to look up what Combat Tactics does one day. People keep talking about it being what WoW gamers would call, "a buff."

And what's really freaky is that it suddenly popped into my head what it does. It lets Marines choose to fail morale tests. And I'm certain that by the time I finish this edit, someone will have posted that explanation. If so, it will further the ever-growing evidence of something. However, by mentioning this, Murphyism predicts that it will not have happened. However, by remembering Murphyism and trying to apply it, it may or may not as the Gods please.

 Pouncey wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There are 2 lists that Vanilla does better than anyone else.

1) Vulkan lists

2) Bikes(although once DAs drop that may change)

Vanilla Bike lists are one of the unique things the codex can do.

The TH/SS terminators are also the cheapest there is.

Let us not forget their ability to exploit the morale rules with Combat Tactics.

I think that, given my continual use of the Space Marines codex, I'm gonna have to look up what Combat Tactics does one day. People keep talking about it being what WoW gamers would call, "a buff."

And what's really freaky is that it suddenly popped into my head what it does. It lets Marines choose to fail morale tests. And I'm certain that by the time I finish this edit, someone will have posted that explanation. If so, it will further the ever-growing evidence of something. However, by mentioning this, Murphyism predicts that it will not have happened. However, by remembering Murphyism and trying to apply it, it may or may not as the Gods please.

If you're running Codex Marines and not taking advantage of Combat Tactics, you're "doing it wrong", as they say. The ability to run away when you want to (with no risk of staying put because of that pesky marine leadership score) is one of the primary benefits of playing Codex Marines. Not using it is kind of like playing Grey Knights without Psycannons. Or Space Wolves without Long Fangs. Or Orks without Boyz. Or [insert defining aspect of your codex here].

Obviously, none of this applies if you've traded away Combat Tactics for something else. But in that case, you've got some other rule to exploit, so the logic still stands.

Codex Marines have always been middle of the road, going back as far as the game goes. There's often a bit of shock when the codex drops and some powerful build or unit gets used a lot (6 man las/plas squads in 4th, TH/SS Terminators in 5th) but generally their codex is dead center for power. As has been mentioned, it's what other codices are compared against.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Codex Marines have always been middle of the road, going back as far as the game goes. There's often a bit of shock when the codex drops and some powerful build or unit gets used a lot (6 man las/plas squads in 4th, TH/SS Terminators in 5th) but generally their codex is dead center for power. As has been mentioned, it's what other codices are compared against.

This is QFT.

I'd bet good money that tactical marines go down at least 1 point, maybe 2, in their 6th edition dex.

Space Marines have always been the 'beginner' army in terms of being fairly easy to understand, paint, and play; the designers try to keep them in the middle or slightly higher-end since they want players to be able to start with an effective and easy-to-use book while retaining the incentive to get minis from other armies.

Drop pods are also a big advantage for marines, though they are not limited to the vanilla chapters. Guided, timed Deep Strikes that still allow you your full move after you disembark are just godly.

I kinda thing you need to tailor to your enemies in order to be really good. Not specific lists, just take flamers for hordes or plasma for marines.

There are few things Vanilla marines do better than anyone else.

They have Combat Tactics
Their Drop Pods can hold 12 models
They have the cheapest TH/SS terminators
They have access to Thunderfire Cannon, LOTD, Ironclad Dreadnoughts and Storm Talon
They have the cheapest melta + multi-melta + Rhino Tac squads


And then there are the Chapter Masters who replace Combat Tactics to something else.

Plus vanilla marines also get quite a few specific variants of things (such as some LR versions) that other marine codexes dont get.

The vanilla marines do a lot well but they dont specialise in anything specific. I wouldnt be surprised if the vanilla codex is (along with IG) one of the last ones to be updated.

 BryllCream wrote:
I'd bet good money that tactical marines go down at least 1 point, maybe 2, in their 6th edition dex.

I'd imagine they'd get dropped down to 12 or 13 points imo. It places them right around where similar stated models are (necron warriors after you figure in WBB are effectively a 3+ armor before res orb and Choas marines are around that number now IIRC). Most importantly, that sort of price drop brings them back to the forefront of the codex. As is they're just not enough bang for the buck offensively as equivalent point troops. Grey hunters are better offensive models for less points, 3 guardsmen can put more hurt on a marine than he can back due to FRF,SRF, necron warriors have built in anti tank capabilities, immortals have better guns and survivability, kabalites have their poison, grey knights are just a few points more for a huge increases in capabilities and orks overpower marines in shooting and melee through sheer attacks and numbers. Against this, it's little wonder the tactical marine has become a sub par choice. He's leveraging average stats, bog standard weaponry and relies mostly on leadership tricks and 3+ armor to get through the day. He's not benefiting from anything that really defines any other army like shooting, vehicles or melee.