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How does a ws9 hit a ws4 on a 3+?
Or that it can hit them back on a 5+?
They are skilled warriors who can precisely control their weapons so why is the difference so small?

Compared to bs , low bs hits crappily and a high bs hits and gets a reroll...

Anyone care to explain the reason behind this?

¨balance¨

WS of 4 isn't bad. It's still more skilled than the average fighter. and with a WS 9 against a WS 4 still gives the WS 9 a good advantage, there are only 2 sides on the dice that would be a miss. and the return of a 5+ isn't that good because only 2 sides of the dice will yield a hit.

BS is different because you're firing at a target, the ballistic skill of the enemy doesn't effect your shot (unless of course they shot you first)

 Makutsu wrote:
How does a ws9 hit a ws4 on a 3+?
Or that it can hit them back on a 5+?
They are skilled warriors who can precisely control their weapons so why is the difference so small?

Compared to bs , low bs hits crappily and a high bs hits and gets a reroll...

Anyone care to explain the reason behind this?

In reality, fights are very fluid and even the most skilled opponents will find it difficult to land every blow on their enemy, no matter how great the skill gap. If nothing else, that WS3 Guardsman is probably scrambling backwards as fast as he can from that WS10 Monster attacking him, making it much more difficult for the WS10 monster to reach him.

But for someone like lelith she's going to rip your face off in cc, you are never going to be able to lay 1 blow on her,...

Because skill with melee weaponry has diminishing marginal returns unlike skill at ballistics.

You'd have to be really skilled in melee to avoid getting a blow landed on you, and even then in an actual battle situation its going to be nearly impossable to avoid all blows. Just easier to land your own, and then it only helps you to a certain point.

Thats why having a WS of higher than 5 really has little effect till you hit WS 9+


Say we have 3 people. One has a Blackbelt, one has a Purple Belt, and one has a Blue belt.

If the Black belt and Purple belt were to have a competition, the Black Belt would obviously be the superior Martial Artist and likely win.

Now if the Black belt and Purple belt were to both fight the Blue belt the Blue belt would lose. There probably wouldn't be much difference in how bad the Blue belt lost to either artist. You probably couldn't tell which fighter had the Black belt and who had the Purple belt if you saw a tape of the fight between them and the Blue belt(and no identification was avaliable)

Its kinda like that. Unless the difference is close or very extreme it won't effect the outcome of the fight.

So that kinda translates.

 Makutsu wrote:
But for someone like lelith she's going to rip your face off in cc, you are never going to be able to lay 1 blow on her,...

Not true. Fights are very fluid. Even the most skilled opponent in the world is going to get bashed on the back of the noggin if they get surrounded, or trip on uneven terrain, or are simply hit at the wrong time. Try to think less like anime, and more like UFC. No amount of skill is going to deflect or parry a powerfist.

I think the ws table is fine, but I have always thought that there should be a bonus to hit for the difference in initiative. I guess the current rule makes it where they may not be able to strike at all which is good enough for initiative..

Hitting on 5+ is still kinda weird for a ws1 vs ws10
And so goes for ws10 vs ws1 is a 3+...

Lets say a guy a ws3 is avg since ig is ws3, vs a super high reflexed space elf that can kick grenades back to you in the middle of air... it just is still lacking on why would you even be able to touch them...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
But for someone like lelith she's going to rip your face off in cc, you are never going to be able to lay 1 blow on her,...

Not true. Fights are very fluid. Even the most skilled opponent in the world is going to get bashed on the back of the noggin if they get surrounded, or trip on uneven terrain, or are simply hit at the wrong time. Try to think less like anime, and more like UFC. No amount of skill is going to deflect or parry a powerfist.

i guess thats why she has a 3++ save...

 Makutsu wrote:
Lets say a guy a ws3 is avg since ig is ws3, vs a super high reflexed space elf that can kick grenades back to you in the middle of air... it just is still lacking on why would you even be able to touch them...

Because a fight is a very fluid thing. She's busy jumping and leaping around in the air, so some bright spark just stabs her with a bayonet mid leap. The WS chart is actually one of the more realistic things in 40k, although I use the term loosely. Because in a real fight, especially on a battlefield between opposing forces, you can't just flip and twist all over the place without anyone touching you.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
But for someone like lelith she's going to rip your face off in cc, you are never going to be able to lay 1 blow on her,...

Not true. Fights are very fluid. Even the most skilled opponent in the world is going to get bashed on the back of the noggin if they get surrounded, or trip on uneven terrain, or are simply hit at the wrong time. Try to think less like anime, and more like UFC. No amount of skill is going to deflect or parry a powerfist.

UFC supports maybe WS4 at most. WS10 is godly. Literally. It's not achievable by a mortal human. At all. The WS system is out of whack and I feel it's only there to make normal troops not get eaten alive by the high WS characters. All this achieves is that WS is the least valuable stats in the game, less valuable than initiative. On the other hand a high strength, which oddly enough is distributed like spun sugar at Tivoli, is an extremely strong stat - not only does it have a harsh comparative table, but the break point (double value) applies instant death, no less.

Think less UFC and more anime. Well, maybe not anime (those are just silly posing), but do pick up a good fantasy novel by Steven Eriksson. Also, I'm fairly certain that the Wailing Doom (among others) can be used to deflect a puny imperial power fist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
Lets say a guy a ws3 is avg since ig is ws3, vs a super high reflexed space elf that can kick grenades back to you in the middle of air... it just is still lacking on why would you even be able to touch them...

Because a fight is a very fluid thing. She's busy jumping and leaping around in the air, so some bright spark just stabs her with a bayonet mid leap. The WS chart is actually one of the more realistic things in 40k, although I use the term loosely. Because in a real fight, especially on a battlefield between opposing forces, you can't just flip and twist all over the place without anyone touching you.

That's not high weapon skill, that's acrobatics and have nothing to do with fighting.

Not true. Fights are very fluid. Even the most skilled opponent in the world is going to get bashed on the back of the noggin if they get surrounded, or trip on uneven terrain, or are simply hit at the wrong time. Try to think less like anime, and more like UFC. No amount of skill is going to deflect or parry a powerfist.

Well, Space Marines are WS4 so being WS3 is like normal human.

Even at a Blackbelt vs Normal People, so WS3 WS4? vs WS2 would have a giant difference, I highly doubt that you could even hurt the blackbelt and that's a difference of WS1.
Have you tried fencing or Kendo? People who are only average can take me down with no problem, and that would be WS3-4 ish while I would be like WS1 or 0.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geNMz0J9TEQ
Basically at @0:46, WS6 ish vs a WS1.


^ What lelith can do but much better and will kill you

Fluff-wise: because even a god of combat dies when they're surrounded by a bunch of guardsmen with pointy sticks.

Rules-wise: because the assault phase is supposed to be where both sides get to attack, so there has to be at least rough parity between the two sides. If you had WS 10 give the same benefit as BS 10 then combat becomes one-sided and the whole "they get to swing back" drawback is negated.

It's fair if a bunch of people try to take you down because they'll eventually wear you out and take you down.

Rules-wise: Ok then, you should still be allowed to attack but at least at a 6+ when it is WS10 vs WS1 or WS9 vs WS2
and a 2+ for the WS10/WS9 side.
Who gets to swing depends on the initiative, a big giant monster should have a lower initiative do to being slow and stuff...

So whose WS6 elites got spanked in CC by guardsmen to start this debate??

Not sure because I can't really think of many WS6 units. I can think of plenty of characters but no units. Most elite combat units are WS5.

 Peregrine wrote:
Fluff-wise: because even a god of combat dies when they're surrounded by a bunch of guardsmen with pointy sticks.

Rules-wise: because the assault phase is supposed to be where both sides get to attack, so there has to be at least rough parity between the two sides. If you had WS 10 give the same benefit as BS 10 then combat becomes one-sided and the whole "they get to swing back" drawback is negated.

Nah, I'd say rules-wise: because there are more models with WS7+ than there are models with T7+ and that you are locked in combat. Actually, come think of it, facing Lilith or Avatar you'd run into a situation that falls under the rules of "we cannot hurt it" thus solving the problem of not being able to hit them. Only real problem is that each point of WS would be like two points of S and/or T in this comparison (since you'd both improve yourself and impair your opponent) but without the Instant Death break points. A revised chart would be: each even point would reduce the opponents chance of getting hit and each odd point would increase your chance of hitting. To be able to even hit Lilith at 6+ you'd need WS3 and to hit the Avatar you'd need WS4, they'd hit anyone WS6 or lower at 2+. This would then mean that one point of WS would be roughly as good as one point of strength and two points of WS would be roughly as good as one point of strength and one point of toughness.
Side note: This also has the side benefit of making it harder to strike moving vehicles, and also makes sense to give vehicles moving at higher speeds increasing WS - i.e. making a Fast Skimmer moving flat out actually hard to hit. Using the UFC analogy from earlier - try placing a bomb on a car that's moving in 70+ mph. Now imagine that's a fully armoured tank travelling a meter up in the air and realise that sticking it to the tarmac isn't going to make one iota of sense. IMO vehicles are a bit too weak to bombs and grenades at the moment.

 Mahtamori wrote:
Think less UFC and more anime. Well, maybe not anime (those are just silly posing), but do pick up a good fantasy novel by Steven Eriksson. Also, I'm fairly certain that the Wailing Doom (among others) can be used to deflect a puny imperial power fist.

See, I think you're looking at it all wrong here. A WS of 10 doesn't mean you're an untouchable god of combat. It just means you're a little bit better than most people/aliens/whatever. Because in the real world (yes, I'm fully aware of the hazards of using the term 'real world' to refer to 40K) being skilled with a weapon doesn't guarantee anything. It doesn't guarantee you'll always hit your opponent, or that you'll always avoid being hit. It makes it more likely, but given the environmental hazards, the law of diminishing returns definitely comes into play. By which I mean combat isn't a duel. It's combat. You might be the greatest swordsman the galaxy has ever seen, but in the press of combat your fancy footwork and dazzlingly brilliant swordplay counts for nothing, and you get belted in the teeth by a guardsman with a rock. You might be an unstoppable alien god of combat, but your incredibly powerful attacks and inhumanly fast movements are for nought when the cowering guardsman in front of you just scrambles backwards as fast as he can instead of trying to fight.

The full measure of any given models combat prowess is a combination of their WS, S, I, T, W, any saves they have, and any special rules in play. WS is, over all, not that important. And as a simulation of 40k's 'reality' it shouldn't be that important because, as I've said, fights are very fluid things and being skilled with a weapon doesn't guarantee anything.

 Mahtamori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Fluff-wise: because even a god of combat dies when they're surrounded by a bunch of guardsmen with pointy sticks.

Rules-wise: because the assault phase is supposed to be where both sides get to attack, so there has to be at least rough parity between the two sides. If you had WS 10 give the same benefit as BS 10 then combat becomes one-sided and the whole "they get to swing back" drawback is negated.

Nah, I'd say rules-wise: because there are more models with WS7+ than there are models with T7+ and that you are locked in combat. Actually, come think of it, facing Lilith or Avatar you'd run into a situation that falls under the rules of "we cannot hurt it" thus solving the problem of not being able to hit them. Only real problem is that each point of WS would be like two points of S and/or T in this comparison (since you'd both improve yourself and impair your opponent) but without the Instant Death break points. A revised chart would be: each even point would reduce the opponents chance of getting hit and each odd point would increase your chance of hitting. To be able to even hit Lilith at 6+ you'd need WS3 and to hit the Avatar you'd need WS4, they'd hit anyone WS6 or lower at 2+. This would then mean that one point of WS would be roughly as good as one point of strength and two points of WS would be roughly as good as one point of strength and one point of toughness.
Side note: This also has the side benefit of making it harder to strike moving vehicles, and also makes sense to give vehicles moving at higher speeds increasing WS - i.e. making a Fast Skimmer moving flat out actually hard to hit. Using the UFC analogy from earlier - try placing a bomb on a car that's moving in 70+ mph. Now imagine that's a fully armoured tank travelling a meter up in the air and realise that sticking it to the tarmac isn't going to make one iota of sense. IMO vehicles are a bit too weak to bombs and grenades at the moment.

You can't hurt it only happens when your S is too low, in the case against Lelith you can definitely murder her easily...

 Kaldor wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
Think less UFC and more anime. Well, maybe not anime (those are just silly posing), but do pick up a good fantasy novel by Steven Eriksson. Also, I'm fairly certain that the Wailing Doom (among others) can be used to deflect a puny imperial power fist.

See, I think you're looking at it all wrong here. A WS of 10 doesn't mean you're an untouchable god of combat. It just means you're a little bit better than most people/aliens/whatever. Because in the real world (yes, I'm fully aware of the hazards of using the term 'real world' to refer to 40K) being skilled with a weapon doesn't guarantee anything. It doesn't guarantee you'll always hit your opponent, or that you'll always avoid being hit. It makes it more likely, but given the environmental hazards, the law of diminishing returns definitely comes into play. By which I mean combat isn't a duel. It's combat. You might be the greatest swordsman the galaxy has ever seen, but in the press of combat your fancy footwork and dazzlingly brilliant swordplay counts for nothing, and you get belted in the teeth by a guardsman with a rock. You might be an unstoppable alien god of combat, but your incredibly powerful attacks and inhumanly fast movements are for nought when the cowering guardsman in front of you just scrambles backwards as fast as he can instead of trying to fight.

The full measure of any given models combat prowess is a combination of their WS, S, I, T, W, any saves they have, and any special rules in play. WS is, over all, not that important. And as a simulation of 40k's 'reality' it shouldn't be that important because, as I've said, fights are very fluid things and being skilled with a weapon doesn't guarantee anything.

It's clearly not a "little" better, the difference between a trained IG and an insane combat SM is only a difference of WS1.
Think about how large that gap is compared to WS3 vs WS10.

How does being skilled not reflect your avoiding level or parry level?
And especially you aren't 1 vs 10, and in 1 v 10 you get so crowded that some people can't even attack the person.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqctjMF0Mvo

This may be a movie, but the actor in real life can actually do those moves.

And he's just a normal human that's skilled possibly a WS4 or WS5, what about WS10?
A WS1 might be civilians, you don't even have a chance of fighting back against a guy like that let alone WS10 people

 Makutsu wrote:

It's clearly not a "little" better, the difference between a trained IG and an insane combat SM is only a difference of WS1.

It quite clearly is a very marginal improvement.

Having a WS of 10 doesn't get you much. It shouldn't get you much. Having a WS of 10, with 10 Attacks and S10 and I10 and ignoring armour saves and inflicting instant death would make you a combat monster. Any one of those things alone isn't worth much.

Think about how large that gap is compared to WS3 vs WS10.

It's a lot smaller than you think it would be.

This may be a movie, but the actor in real life can actually do those moves.

See, this is part of the problem. That was a highly orchestrated and choreographed fight scene. In reality, he would have had a dirty great mud-hole stomped in him inside of ten seconds. In the 40K reality (and in our own) having a high skill with a weapon isn't worth much at all, and nor should it be. WS isn't a single catch-all for combat efficiency. It doesn't accurately measure the entire combat capability of any given model. Lelith Hesperax isn't dangerous because she has WS 9. She's dangerous because she also has I9, ignores armour saves, has an invulnerable save, robs the enemies of their attacks, and so on. You can only measure the totality of her combat abilities by looking at the totality of her stats and rules. WS is a small part of that, as it should be.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:

It's clearly not a "little" better, the difference between a trained IG and an insane combat SM is only a difference of WS1.

It quite clearly is a very marginal improvement.

Having a WS of 10 doesn't get you much. It shouldn't get you much. Having a WS of 10, with 10 Attacks and S10 and I10 and ignoring armour saves and inflicting instant death would make you a combat monster. Any one of those things alone isn't worth much.

Think about how large that gap is compared to WS3 vs WS10.

It's a lot smaller than you think it would be.

I disagree that the difference between an IG and a SM is very minimal, one is a normal human being vs a insanely genetic modified human soldier that have been trained to the same standard as an IG or even more and waaay more disciplined.

But I guess if you were to put it in perspective with other stats it makes some sense I guess, but then it isn't "to Hit" anymore, "to Hit" should be how good you are with using weapons. I agree how "lethal" you are is based around all of them but not "to hit".

Do you think that a person of NO Experience at all would ever be able to hit a guy that's top tiered? The thing is I don't really disagree too much with the WS4 vs WS5 like 1-2 difference is not that much.

But to say that a WS1 has a chance of hitting a WS10 is absurd. It's as if you went fencing with an Olympic Champion, the chances of you hitting them is close to 0.

A being with WS10 is a bloodthirster.

That is not "Marginally better then most humans!"

Each increase of any stat is quite a leap. At the very least it is exponential.

The benifit of said increase may not be exponential.


But that largely has to do with the limits of the D6 based game system.

I don't think that a increase IS always exponential. In the cases of Strength and Toughness, sure, I concede that it is. But in the case of Weapon Skill, I think each increase represents a SMALLER difference from the increase that came before. I think Kaldor has the right of it. (Except when using the UFC as an example of 'real' fighting ) The melee hit table is pretty reasonable, in my personal opinion. That crazy, katana-logic, reality-defying nonsense that Lelith and other special characters have is represented not in a strict WS vs WS comparison, but in their special rules, equipment, invulnerable saves, and universal rules. That's just my personal take on it, of course.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
A being with WS10 is a bloodthirster.

That is not "Marginally better then most humans!"

But what makes the bloodthirster so scary isn't his WS. It's the totality of his rules and stats. WS10 isn't scary, and shouldn't be. Skill with a weapon doesn't represent aggression, speed, strength, reach or height, or any other ability. It doesn't help you in combat as much as people seem to think it should.

 Makutsu wrote:
But to say that a WS1 has a chance of hitting a WS10 is absurd. It's as if you went fencing with an Olympic Champion, the chances of you hitting them is close to 0.

It's combat. Not a duel. That's kinda the point. If I'm faced off against an Olympic fencing champion, and I bum-rush him with a chair leg, I'm gonna hit that sucker.

But what makes the bloodthirster so scary isn't his WS. It's the totality of his rules and stats. WS10 isn't scary, and shouldn't be. Skill with a weapon doesn't represent aggression, speed, strength, reach or height, or any other ability. It doesn't help you in combat as much as people seem to think it should.

Alright then, The Bloodthirster represents all those things. Why is it on the common basis with a guard, why can it only gain a 3+ on hit.

It's combat. Not a duel. That's kinda the point. If I'm faced off against an Olympic fencing champion, and I bum-rush him with a chair leg, I'm gonna hit that sucker.

Some of those suckers will have targetting computers that can see a full 360 degree's from their line of sight and detect enemies almost instantly. That sucker has a full rush from combat drugs, various programming, and things that will allow it near instantaneous sight of someone.

There's a difference between skill, and someone on everything. The top of humankind is WS3/4, because that's the best humans will hope for. Combined with everything else? Not so much.

 Kaldor wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
A being with WS10 is a bloodthirster.

That is not "Marginally better then most humans!"

But what makes the bloodthirster so scary isn't his WS. It's the totality of his rules and stats. WS10 isn't scary, and shouldn't be. Skill with a weapon doesn't represent aggression, speed, strength, reach or height, or any other ability. It doesn't help you in combat as much as people seem to think it should.

 Makutsu wrote:
But to say that a WS1 has a chance of hitting a WS10 is absurd. It's as if you went fencing with an Olympic Champion, the chances of you hitting them is close to 0.

It's combat. Not a duel. That's kinda the point. If I'm faced off against an Olympic fencing champion, and I bum-rush him with a chair leg, I'm gonna hit that sucker.

I think fundamentally we think of WS as different things, you think how skilled you are with a blade does not affect how much effectiveness your lethality will be. I think it does.
The problem is that you are dealing with "to hit" numbers though, what you are saying is "to wound".
You emphasize a lot on the other stats while they aren't the ones that matter in "to hit".


You are still clearly not getting the importance of a difference in skill, a duel and a combat are really similar things, you have to assume it's 1 v 1 since you would be saying a squad vs squad of the same size fight.
In a 1 v 1 situation if you can parry the enemy often then he's not going to lay a lot of hits on you right? You can't disagree this point.
And similarly you would be able to land more hits on the enemy if you are very skilled, since a parrying leads to gaps for attacks and such.


I highly doubt that you can hit him with a chair leg before he penetrates your heart with an actual sword. The situation that you are talking about already has different wargear in perspective and is not a good representation of WS.

Under same conditions of everything, S, I etc...
The one with a much higher WS should hit so often that the low WS can't hit at all, hence WS10 vs WS1 should be 2+ vs 6+.

 Makutsu wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
But for someone like lelith she's going to rip your face off in cc, you are never going to be able to lay 1 blow on her,...

Not true. Fights are very fluid. Even the most skilled opponent in the world is going to get bashed on the back of the noggin if they get surrounded, or trip on uneven terrain, or are simply hit at the wrong time. Try to think less like anime, and more like UFC. No amount of skill is going to deflect or parry a powerfist.

i guess thats why she has a 3++ save...

The 3++ save represents her dodging. In other words, the Marine with the Powerfist swung it just right, and she sees it's going to connect. So she attempts to dodge. it's got nothing to do with the Marine managing to potentially land the powerfist.

Maybe, being the flashy gladiatorial combat master that she is, she attempted to finish the Marine off with a flashy move, vaulting to a nearby tree stump, somersaulting over the Marine to stab him in the back. The Marine, being the no-nonsense fighter he is, saw it coming, and swung at where she would land.

The Marine player managing a hit on a 5+ represents the Marine with the fist guessing right, and swinging at the right time to smack Lelith with his powerfist. Tough luck Lelith, the Marine got lucky. The 3++ is after that, representing Lelith, in return, seeing the fist swinging her way, and maybe twisting in the air ro avoid it.

Close combat is a fluid thing. It's not them standing where the actual models are, rigid in place, trading blows. The rolls are just an abstraction of what might happen in that fight.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
why can it only gain a 3+ on hit.

Because that is the highest probability it is ever possible for anything to attain, ever. Because fights are fluid things, and no one is going to just stand there and get hit. People facing a bloodthirster will cower and flee, and the environment will play it's part, and sometimes people will just get lucky.

The best situation possible is the potential to land two thirds of your blows. Your WS just ranks the opponents against whom you will enjoy that situation.

The top of humankind is WS3/4, because that's the best humans will hope for. Combined with everything else? Not so much.

Death Cult Assassins are WS5. Officio Assassinorium assassins are WS8.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Makutsu wrote:
a duel and a combat are really similar things

They are very, very different.

 Makutsu wrote:
I highly doubt that you can hit him with a chair leg before he penetrates your heart with an actual sword.

Sure, you might not hit him before getting stabbed, but I'm going to hit him from behind while his sword is still caught in your ribs. So I hit on a 1+, you hit on a 6+, and we average that out to be a 4+ for my unit to hit in the chaos of the overall fight.