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ok so my first game as GK i played against a daemons player. (sort of reported this in army lists) now i realize that GK are pretty tooled vrs daemons and meant to feed them their butts... and thats cool. but in game the exact opposite happened.

anyway, at 500 pts, i had 10 strike marines, 2 psycannons and psybolt, then a 5 man termie squad. (HQ not required for this game)

the daemons guy came in with a lord of change with wings, bolt and another shooting attack, and a pair of 10 man horror squads.

i was able to shoot up the horrors no problem. PE + str 5 on toughness 3 made short work on them, and if thats all i had faced i would have had no issues winning. however, that greater daemon just seemed.... impossible to hurt. even with PE rerolls, and blasting it with psycannons and psybolt i could not get any wounds on it. when it got to combat, it would challange and kill my unit champ, or if i refused it would just massacare the rest of the unit and make its 3+ invuns. NFW kinda useless due to the EW on the thing, and even with halbred termies i could not so much as touch it. hammerhand made me wound on 5+ instead of 6+ - but the few wounds i scored just got saved by the 3++.

i have no doubt ill be facing this beast again, and i need to know... how to GK deal with greater flying daemons? especially the ones with high str ap2 shooting? because this game ended up with my GK just rolling over and cowering into their blankies like scared little children.

Dont our force weapons have that special rule against daemons, take a test for every unsaved wound or removed from play (cant remember exactly and dont have book at hand)

Or does eternal warrior protect against remove from play?

Take draigo, strength 10 against daemons, eternal warrior, storm shield etc

Will go away and think and come back to you with some more ideas

 tuiman wrote:
Dont our force weapons have that special rule against daemons, take a test for every unsaved wound or removed from play (cant remember exactly and dont have book at hand)

Or does eternal warrior protect against remove from play?

Take draigo, strength 10 against daemons, eternal warrior, storm shield etc

Will go away and think and come back to you with some more ideas

Indeed. Look at page 54 of the codex, Daemonbane rule. Wounds from nemesis force weapons prompt a leadership test on daemons. If leadership test fails, daemon dies. You don't even have to roll to activate the force weapon, so you can use hammerhand and daemonbane still works.

Is it wounds or unsaved wounds?

And does it bypass eternal warrior?

its unsaved wounds, and does bypass EW. however, i never managed an unsaved wound on the thing. - with either my shooting or in CC with a nfw

i went first and deployed by combat squadding the strike squad, and the termies in the middile (with the idea of creating a larger warp quake zone) - got both spells off first turn. no daemons on table so his turn.

D1: got his greater daemon in play and a unit of horrors. the horrors shot and killed 1 of the strike marines from my right side. the greater daemon came in flying, and killed 2 marines from the left side.

GK2: failed warp quake on the left, the right side got it. shot EVERYTHING at the greater daemon, scored a few hits thanks to PE, but failed to wound. he passed the grounding check.

D2: next block of horrors showed up on the left. LoC goes into glide mode, and approaches the termies. shoots them, and kills 3 of the 5. the left horrors manage to kill the 2nd marine on the left, while the right side takes down the psycannon on the right. (he happened to be closest by a 1/4th inch) the LoC then charged the termies, and challanged. only 2 left, so couldnt refuse and my justicar got thumped hardcore, even with his halbred and hammerhand. managed to pass the LD check and stayed in the fight.

GK3: the right strike marines advanced and prepared a charge to help out the termies. left squad took down all but 3 of the right side horrors. - left strike squad rolled snake eyes on its charge, and failed. LoC proceded to kill both remaining termies but did take 2 hits from the halbred. - and made both 3+ invun saves. it consolodated right next to the left strike squad.

D3: the left horrors shot at the left strike squad and took down 1, while the greater daemon charged at the right group, and killed another with its shooting. the subsequent combat, even though i went first (from him charging into cover) only resulted in him taking 1 save, wich he passed. in response he chopped down the remaining 3 men, and again massacared towards the last marines.

GK4: with only 2 marines left, i tried getting into better shooting range and dropped fire into the LoC - but failed to wound.

D4: charged again... and no contest.

basically even though i was getting a few hits, i just couldnt manage a wound on a t6 3++ init 6 MC. my overwatch was just a fail all around, and while PE worked AWSOME when shooting at the horrors, and helped a bit against the LoC that 3++ just absoarbed everything i threw at it, and CC was just a curb stomping.

the next time i play him will be at 1500 pts, so i have 1000 more pts to work with then this game, but i have to keep what i already have - (10man strike, 2 psycannons, psybolt, and 5 termies w/halbreds 1 hammer, psybolt, psycannon)

so any help would be nice...

His list was pretty unbalanced at that level. The truth is, Daemons are a really hard matchup for just about all Marines. I would recommend adding Coteaz for I've Been Expecting you, a squad of Interceptors for better Deep Strike coverage and then bringing along a lot of small arms fire. A Guard ally works the best, but a few Storm Bolter Acolyte squads works really well too.

Dreadknights can be very good as well with Dark Excommunication but they do not hold up as well as they used to now that you can deny the witch it..

I would switch the termie loadout to 1 halberd+4 hammers, they'll be some modeling involved (it's totally bogus that they only give you one of the hammers per squad). Your issue right now I think is getting the wounds on the greater daemon, and unfortunately you'll find as you continue to play GK that they don't exactly bring the high strength weapons in great numbers at range (yes, pyscannons are S7, but they can't bring man-portable lascannons) so your best and cheapest bet for dealing with vehicles and MCs are going to be the hammers. As far as flying...bring an aegis or prescience-boosted psycannon.
Also, at 500 pts anything can happen.

On the hammer note, here's what I did to make more: I bought the thunder hammer bitz pack, cut off the top of the halberds and glued the hammer heads on. I then glued the blade of the halberd to the back of the hammer. It works for me.

As a deamon player myself I'd recommend as many small squads as possible - it sounds like he's running Tzeentch so the last thing you need is a super expensive unit of terminators.

I'd take bucket loads of Purifiers and Dreadnaughts - high strength high volume dakka is affective against both deamon MCs and their foot troops - you only need to worry about AP if you're fighting against khorne deamons, who're pretty weak.

yea i was prepared for the lack of high str long range weapons, although psycannons have done well for me in the past. i eventually plan on grabbing some psyflemen and maybe a dreadknight, plus some psybacks for the strike squads.

for HQ choices... whats the best bet? a GM for a fighty character, a libby for psychic fun or an inquisitor? im not a big fan of draigo... hes just...well cheesy. and his points cost is rather insane. i was however thinking of adding 5 termies to the squad, and attaching a libby and GM to them to make a rather hefty beat stick. load em up with psycannons and halbreds, pack a few hammers and give the libby a null staff.... and i should be able to handle most with that unit. - but would said unit be worth taking? im worried that without transport ill either be walking and shot to pieces, or deepstrike, and then get templated and shot to pieces.

I would forgo close combat entirely. The thing about grey knights is that they are, first and foremost, a shooty army - people overlook this because they have universal force weapons and against most enemies they have a pretty big margin of error.

But vs demons you'll want as many points in firepower as you can. I don't know the GK codex that well, so I don't know what powers the librarian can bring to the table, though I know there are several strong shooty Henchmen builds so maybe an Inquisitor might be the way to go. I think what's really important though is getting as many pyscannons and psybolt dreadnaughts as you can into your list. You don't need to think about AP at all, just volume of fire and strength. For that reason I would avoid Storm Ravens and Land Raiders if you were thinking of taking them.

Off the top of my head, this is what I'd suggest at 1500 points:

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, terminator upgrades - 65 pts

10* Purifiers, 4 pyscannons - 280
10* Purifiers, 4 pyscannons - 280
10* Purifiers, 4 pyscannons - 280


Strike squad, psycannon - 110
Strike squad, psycannon - 110
Strike squad, psycannon - 110

Dreadnaught, two autocannons, pysbolt - 135
Dreadnaught, two autocannons, pysbolt - 135

Gets you to 1410 with 90 points to spare.You could take the terminator armour off the Inquisitor and get another dreadnaught, or juggle things around, but I know if I saw that list at 1500 I'd gulp. 15 pyscannons, that's sixty BS4 S7 rending shots per turn. Ouch. That will get 40 hits, 33.3 wounds, 22.2 kills against horrors, flamers or screamers. Against a swooping greater demon (T6 3++) it'll get 2 wounds, and kill it outright if it's gliding.

So take the above with a pinch of salt. I don't think it's a playable list as such, but something that helps you understand what Tzeentch demon players fear.

are you sure that was his list cuz he was a cheaty face a lord of change base is 250 pts and 10 man horror squad is 170 so your looking at 590 with no upgrads...

He had a lord of change, and the rest was in 2 units of horrors I can't recall exact numbers, but both units had bolt, and there was about 7-10 in each. Points limit 500.

Even if he was over limit in horrors, those I could deal with. The greater daemon was the problem for me, and accounted for 80% of my losses.

Tbh to me this is just another example of why Grey Knight Terminators are such a waste of time. They don't have any meaningful combat punch (a Lord of Change isn't that nasty in assault), and for the same cost you can get twice as many Strikes, giving you twice the number of Psycannons and S5 Storm Bolter shots. In a shooting dominated game I would always take the Strikes even without factoring in the additional tools they bring (a Psybolt Razor with Searchlight, Deep Strike Defence, more bodies).

Really this matchup depends quite a bit on how grounded tests go. Essentially your general strategy should be to combat squad everything and give yourself a reasonable amount of spacing (but not so much you can't support each other). With your list you essentially force three grounded tests per turn, 12 shots per combat squad + 10 from the Terminators (a couple more if there is a Psycannon in there, remember you might as well always fire it in heavy mode at fliers) has to be insanely unlucky not to force a grounded test each. You likely only get a wound or two through firing at it when it is flying, the real damage will happen if you can ground it. Three test in theory is enough to ground him, but the order it happens makes a huge difference in lower point games because you don't have more shooting to follow up with. At higher points levels its going to be much less of an issue because once you ground him you should easily be able to squad him + with more units you can actually screen and block properly. Basically if you get lucky and ground it with the first squad then you should seriously mess him up with your remaining shooting, a full 10 man Strike squad should easily drop 2 wounds off him if you can catch him on the ground, which combined with the 1-2 wounds from hits in the air + grounding hits will hopefully be enough to kill him.

Realistically he is probably going to get at least one assault off though. The trick is making this difficult for him, and stopping him just jumping from unit to unit. Obviously try and stand in terrain to strike first (also remember that you strike first if you initiate an assault because of your special grenades). If he does reach you though the key is to ensure that you lose combat in either one turn or three rounds. Remember that the LoC only has 3 attacks, so he is never going to wipe a squad instantly. Combine this with the fact that he is I5 (so more than likely catches you if you fail morale) and ATSKNF it is quite hard to break off perfectly in a single turn. If you have not taken any casualties then the only way it can happen is if you decline/don't challenge, then fail morale and get away which is very hard to do (you pass morale on average and you don't get away on average, so its two lots of bad odds in a row). In this case you are better off declining the challenge initially to keep the Ld9 guy alive longer, then challenge in the second or third round (second if you have less than 3 guys left, third if you can ensure he lives for the turn) to try and ensure combat finishes in his turn. If you have already lost 1-2 guys from the squad (quite possible tbh) then decline/don't challenge and hope he rolls well to wipe the squad in one turn (you should take off the Sarge deliberately if you are trying this btw).

If the LoC gets locked in combat for a turn then back the other squad away in opposite directions so that when he breaks free he has to pick and choose which one to go for. Just make sure you keep them with 24" of each other so they can still shoot effectively. Other than that just remember to get him to take the Daemonbane tests in assault, don't forget Overwatch (re-rolling 1's) and hope he rolls closer to average with his 3++ saves (it sounds like he just passed them all in your last game).

Yeah, paladins are by far the better option, much more durable, you just need to be able to support them with strikes and dreads.

Except Paladins are Elites (and don't score without doing silly things to your list), cost way more and still aren't that amazing in combat (not Fearless, AP3). I would rather have Purifiers than Paladins, and would even take Strikes over Paladins (up until you have 4+ big units of Strikes).

Purifiers do a better job than any terminator in the GK book. Yes thwy still die like any other marine... thats the risk I suppose but you get almost 2 for every terminator. You can build them as assault marines respectively or dev squads respectively. Bringing a GM and Coteaz is how 90% of my lists start. Coteaz because he's cheap and bring so much of a force multiplier and the GM to make elites score.

 tuiman wrote:
Yeah, paladins are by far the better option, much more durable, you just need to be able to support them with strikes and dreads.

What exactly do paladins bring against a Tzeentch demon list? Paying 55 points for a model to simply stand there shooting a storm bolter is an odd recommendation to say the least.

yea im not thinking that palladins would help me much, either vrs daemons or even other armies. purifiers however, even as psycannon platforms sounds like a nice idea. i also did some reading and the dreadknight sounds like a cool idea. taking any number of loadouts seems cool. definitly want the teleporter, and im torn between weapon loadouts. i like the idea of a great sword for bashing face, but the psilencer and flamer look cool for outright damage, or subbing one out for the psycannon. too bad i cant have 3 weapons... lol. so heres what im thinking for loadouts....

- 5 more termies to make them 10 strong
a gm / libby attached for a nice added punch
- 10 purifiers
- 2 ven dread psyflemen
- 3 DK or a single dk and some psyflemen dreads (or a 2-1 mix of one or the other.)

Powerguy wrote:
Except Paladins are Elites (and don't score without doing silly things to your list), cost way more and still aren't that amazing in combat (not Fearless, AP3). I would rather have Purifiers than Paladins, and would even take Strikes over Paladins (up until you have 4+ big units of Strikes).

I disagree, and what do you mean silly? Draigo is well worth his points, or add a cheaper gm, use grand strategy and you still have a solid HQ. I mix between warding staves, swords, and hammers. So you fall back on a 2++, and then 4++, and then I hit with 16 hammer AP2 attacks (thats only 4 guys with hammers, +1 for charging and +1 for bro banner) at ws5 thats enough to ruin most people day. Draigo helps with fearless.

By all means take mass of strikes or purifiers, just dont complain when someone brings 3 flamer helldrakes to a tounie and wipes you off the board. However this is mainly against daemons so will focus more on the topic at hand.

Goat wrote:Purifiers do a better job than any terminator in the GK book. Yes thwy still die like any other marine... thats the risk I suppose but you get almost 2 for every terminator. You can build them as assault marines respectively or dev squads respectively. Bringing a GM and Coteaz is how 90% of my lists start. Coteaz because he's cheap and bring so much of a force multiplier and the GM to make elites score.

So you can make paladins score just as much as Purifiers. Terminators can move and still fire of the heavy 4. So a 10 man paladin squad can fire 16 shots at 30 inchs. If purifiers move (and they probably have to to get close) all of a sudden their shots are halved. And yes, they do die like any other marine, as above, when a bale flamer helldrake comes in and wipes out 150 points of purifiers in one go (and then theres the other two) we have a problem. They are probably better in a transport, a chimera would be better so all psycannons can shoot.

Darth Spader wrote:yea im not thinking that palladins would help me much, either vrs daemons or even other armies. purifiers however, even as psycannon platforms sounds like a nice idea. i also did some reading and the dreadknight sounds like a cool idea. taking any number of loadouts seems cool. definitly want the teleporter, and im torn between weapon loadouts. i like the idea of a great sword for bashing face, but the psilencer and flamer look cool for outright damage, or subbing one out for the psycannon. too bad i cant have 3 weapons... lol. so heres what im thinking for loadouts....

- 5 more termies to make them 10 strong
a gm / libby attached for a nice added punch
- 10 purifiers
- 2 ven dread psyflemen
- 3 DK or a single dk and some psyflemen dreads (or a 2-1 mix of one or the other.)

All I'm saying is paladins are better than terminators, not that they are the best thing in the codex. An extra wound and weapon skill for only 15 points is well worth it. I would not take normal terminators. I would just take 3 lots of strikes, and create a massive warp quake bubble so he has to deploy far away. Purifiers are good, but how are you going to keep them alive, they die just like any marine. I do love my dreadknights, I only have 1 right now but wish for more they are so good. Best option is sword and incinerator, however the heavy psycannon is a viable option now. Also try not to take ven dreads unless necessary, they have got worse in 6th and are kinda expensive for what they bring.

ooooo i just read the codex again...

and a mircale! it turns out that the DK CAN take 2 ranged weapons AND a greatsword! go figure the amazing things that are revealed when one READS his codex.

so...

DK w/hev psycannon, gatling psilencer, NGS, teleporter = 305

a jump infantry beatstick with some pretty decent ranged damage output for taking on blocks of infantry. the only reason i like the psilencer here, is simply the 12 shots in addition to the large blast. the greatsword is there for beating down whatever else needs a good smacking, or finishing off the unit it just shot up. teleporter to make him speedy and provide a shunt if required. however at 305 points this guy is a pretty hefty pricetag. would he be as effective i wonder without the teleporter? maybe two of them without the teleporter would be a good team?


maybe this would work with what i have:

- libby, stave, = 185
- 10 strike marines, 2 psycannon, 1 hammer, 1 halbred, psybolt = 255
- 5 termies, 1 psycannon, psybolt, halbreds, 1 hammer = 245
- 10 purifiers, 4 psycannon, psybolt = 300
- dreadknight, psycannon, psilencer, greatsword = 230
- dreadknight, psycannon, psilencer, greatsword = 230

= 1445

bringing a lord of change at 500 pts is like bringing a storm raven at 500 points its dick move and no one can deal with it

 DarthSpader wrote:
ooooo i just read the codex again...

and a mircale! it turns out that the DK CAN take 2 ranged weapons AND a greatsword! go figure the amazing things that are revealed when one READS his codex.

so...

DK w/hev psycannon, gatling psilencer, NGS, teleporter = 305

a jump infantry beatstick with some pretty decent ranged damage output for taking on blocks of infantry. the only reason i like the psilencer here, is simply the 12 shots in addition to the large blast. the greatsword is there for beating down whatever else needs a good smacking, or finishing off the unit it just shot up. teleporter to make him speedy and provide a shunt if required. however at 305 points this guy is a pretty hefty pricetag. would he be as effective i wonder without the teleporter? maybe two of them without the teleporter would be a good team?


maybe this would work with what i have:

- libby, stave, = 185
- 10 strike marines, 2 psycannon, 1 hammer, 1 halbred, psybolt = 255
- 5 termies, 1 psycannon, psybolt, halbreds, 1 hammer = 245
- 10 purifiers, 4 psycannon, psybolt = 300
- dreadknight, psycannon, psilencer, greatsword = 230
- dreadknight, psycannon, psilencer, greatsword = 230

= 1445

Please leave the psilencer off of the DKs. Also drop the pys ammo off of the pruifiers, 20 points for just 6 bros to get it is value wasted. Same for the 5man termies. The biggest pitfall for people learning GKs is killing yourself before you even start the game. What I mean is don't drown your army in upgrades. You are already paying a premium for most models. The most bang for your buck on DKs are Teleporters, incinerators, and swords. Also, Coteaz outshines the librarians now unless your deadset on codex psypowers.

There is a lot of tweek room in this list to get more firepower.

i would disagree with the psybolt... ive found that it very much pays for itself, and yes even on a 5 man squad. the str 5 shooting is very useful against low t4 units, forcing more wounds, and thus more saves. its also served me well in providing wounds on larger targets, or even damage to light vehicles if i need. obviously everyones exp with it is diffirent, but honestly i think its one of those things wich is a person to person option. i like it, so ill probally keep taking it - unless its preventing me taking another unit i really want. and in that case ill probally go either everything with psybolt or no one with it. i hate trying to remember what units have what upgrade, when a 10 man has it but the 2 5s over here dont, and those termies dont, but those do. ive had some problems keeping track of those kinds of things previously, so my fix (and to prevent accidental cheating) is to make sure my whole army does generally the same thing. if one storm bolter has it, every storm bolter does.

now, as for the dreadknights... having used one, all of maybe twice, (when they first came out once, and again a few weeks back) i really cant say. they seem to have gotten much better in 6th, but look like it could get kicked pretty bad if in a solo fight. and being t hat GK are primary shooting, i figure keep it doing that, but allow for a good CC option as well. so the sword is def in, as it looks the best option. (str 10 with rerolls on hit/wound/armor... yes please!... although whats the AP of the greatsword? - and its still a force weapon?)
as far as the flamer weapon goes, i can definitily see the value in it, as the heavy psycannon. (any template weapon is pretty useful now) but the 12 shots by the psilencer also seem pretty cool. although no AP and only str 4 seems to make it lack.

now looking at HQ... im not sure wich way to go.

- 2 malleus inquisitors with psycannons and lvl 1
- GM with psycannon and maybe some grenades or something
- libby with lvl 3 and powers
- coteaz..

i like the idea of all of those, but can probally only afford to take one. each one has things i like, and i have the models for them. i would like to avoid special characters if possible, since i dont really want to deal with the "oh look.. another GK coteaz player..." remarks. but that said if hes the actual best option ill use him. (ive used necron special characters quite often, because i like the powers and abilities they give me - and just ignored the "comments")

so. lots of thinking to do.