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So a lot of the people I've been playing against as of late have been whining quite hard about how "OP the new CSM codex is". I still haven't lost a single game since the new codex was released, but I have played a couple ties. Their main concern seems to be centred around my Noise Marines and the fact that the ignores cover rule is too much on their weapons (especially now that you can put 2 Blastmasters in a 10-man squad with the errata), the Daemon Prince being difficult to deal with and the Warp Talons generally being too dangerous in melee. I have tried to give them advice on how to counter all these things, such as employing snipers against the Daemon Prince, staying in cover against the Warp Talons and using transports to make the Blastmasters less dangerous, but their whines continue. I like to think that their inability to adapt is the core issue here, but I'm very curious about what you people think of the general power level of the "new" CSM codex. So post your thoughts.

People that scream Warp Talons are OP, need to learn to play better.

The new CSM is considered Middle tier by most. The Onslaught GT however, had some surprising results, with 2 armies fielding CSMs as primary detachments, and 1 as CSM as the allied detachment making it into the top ten.

The codex is anything but OP, but it does have a few very powerful units, such as the Heldrake and Daemon Prince, the Black Mace, and of course Noise and Plague Marines.

The Heldrake is the only unit in the codex that I'd call very powerful, and all it does is make Space Marines remove power armor models like orks and IG have always done when hit with flamers.

I think that you're being a very good sport by telling them how to deal with your codex. Too bad they aren't being good sports in return. Not sure what other advice to give you.

Warp Talons OP?



Tell them to shoot them. They're 35 point Marines that die as easily as your 13 point Marines to small-arms fire.

The Chaos Codex is just fine power-wise. GW dropped the ball on a lot of units that could've been better than they are, but overall the book is fine. The only thing that's almost OTT is the Baleflamer Heldrake and even then it isn't, IMO, OP, just very good.

 Sasori wrote:
People that scream Warp Talons are OP, need to learn to play better.

The new CSM is considered Middle tier by most. The Onslaught GT however, had some surprising results, with 2 armies fielding CSMs as primary detachments, and 1 as CSM as the allied detachment making it into the top ten.

The codex is anything but OP, but it does have a few very powerful units, such as the Heldrake and Daemon Prince, the Black Mace, and of course Noise and Plague Marines.

The Norwegian Championship in 40k was hosted a few weeks (a month?) back and the 1st and 2nd place went to CSM players, and of course this is being used as eternal proof they are OP here. Very interesting to see that it is viewed as a mid tier codex, which I personally agree it is. The DP with Black Mace is of course very powerful, but he's only T5 and doesn't have Eternal Warrior anymore so I see and endless amount of ways to take him out. To see you claim the Heldrake being powerful surprises me though. It's poorer BS makes the Hades Autocannons less appealing to me, leaving primarily as another anti infantry vehicle (albeit a flyer). Punching though the armour on flyers with AV12 isn't likely to succeed with its STR7 either in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Warp Talons OP?

Spoiler:

Tell them to shoot them. They're 35 point Marines that die as easily as your 13 point Marines to small-arms fire.

I told my Blood Angels pal to get Sternguard Vets with the AP3 bolters. It would within all likelyhood mow them all down. Heck, he doesn't even need that to gun them down.

 kronk wrote:
The Heldrake is the only unit in the codex that I'd call very powerful, and all it does is make Space Marines remove power armor models like orks and IG have always done when hit with flamers.

I think that you're being a very good sport by telling them how to deal with your codex. Too bad they aren't being good sports in return. Not sure what other advice to give you.

Couldn't agree more.

And imho, the Helldrake is only somewhat OTT right now because only 3 armies have their proper 6th ed anti-flyer counters. ('Crons, DA's & CSM's obviously, though IG is quite fierce too!)
Let's wait for a few more codcies to come forth and more armies to get their own counters + flyers and see if those Drakes continue to rampage across the skies without mercey! And 3 Drakes is honestly still quite tame compared to mass Valkyrie/Vendetta spam or the Necron Flying French Bakery...

But then, I know GK players who whine and b**** that Daemons are completely unbeatable for them, and are the most OP broken thing to ever happen to 40k.

Against Warp Talons I'd rather fire the poisoned rounds. Sure doesn't ignore armour, but more wounds (wounding on 2 as opposed to 4) against 3+ instead of 5++ kinda evens it out, and you don't have to be bothered about Gets Hot!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Against Warp Talons I'd rather fire the poisoned rounds. Sure doesn't ignore armour, but more wounds (wounding on 2 as opposed to 4) against 3+ instead of 5++ kinda evens it out, and you don't have to be bothered about Gets Hot!

True! I'm not an expert on the Blood Angels, but I just tried finding a solution for him, and I just took the first thing I thought would work.

 Sasori wrote:
The new CSM is considered Middle tier by most.

The codex is anything but OP, but it does have a few very powerful units, such as the Heldrake and Daemon Prince, the Black Mace, and of course Noise and Plague Marines.

This....

CSM is decent, but its not an 'awesome' codex. Sadly it only has a few viable builds in it, each of those incorporates those units Sasori mentioned to one degree or another.

Warp Talons are overpowered? Oh man, that's rich. That really is. How much have they cried "Your Mutilator is too powerful!"?

But, judging from your use of Noise Marines, I'm guessing you gave the Warp Talons MoS? I can understand how dual lightning claws at I5 will make Spess Mehreen players mad. And yeah, Noise Marines are pretty awesome. I've had many a game against IG that ends in tears because their Aegis Line did nothing.

Have you used triple Baleflamer Heldrake spam against them? That thing runs on the hopes and dreams of orphans. (It goes fast)

The Chaos codex is a good codex, IMO. I've never found it super powerful, nor have I ever felt like it was bad. It's what a codex SHOULD be, really. Too bad it gets put to shame by power codices.

 xSPYXEx wrote:
Warp Talons are overpowered? Oh man, that's rich. That really is. How much have they cried "Your Mutilator is too powerful!"?

But, judging from your use of Noise Marines, I'm guessing you gave the Warp Talons MoS? I can understand how dual lightning claws at I5 will make Spess Mehreen players mad. And yeah, Noise Marines are pretty awesome. I've had many a game against IG that ends in tears because their Aegis Line did nothing.

Have you used triple Baleflamer Heldrake spam against them? That thing runs on the hopes and dreams of orphans. (It goes fast)

The Chaos codex is a good codex, IMO. I've never found it super powerful, nor have I ever felt like it was bad. It's what a codex SHOULD be, really. Too bad it gets put to shame by power codices.

Yeah I play a pure Slaanesh list. I like picking a theme for my armies, so I try to stay true to Slaanesh whenever I can. I will admit the heresy of putting MoN or MoT on my Obliterators sometimes, but the MoS so sooo useless on them.

I would try 3 Baleflamer Heldrakes for the lulz, but I'm not that cruel nor rich

 kronk wrote:
The Heldrake is the only unit in the codex that I'd call very powerful, and all it does is make Space Marines remove power armor models like orks and IG have always done when hit with flamers..

These may not be seen as OP but they are still very good units.
- Plague marines are also extremely good for their point cost. I've not seen noise marines in action so cannot comment on them.
- Abbadon is the king of facebeating. Having access to the most bad-ass IC for less than Logan Grimnar is a deal. Hes so good he borders on OP
- Cheap librarians and lords are nice.
- Havocs are good too. They are on the same tier as long fangs due to their ability to take more models and bring autocannons.
- Spawn are extremely good. They act as a wonderful lord delivery system.
- CSM bikes are good for their points.
- Some of the warlord traits are just stupidly good. Giving perferred enemy:marines to all models with 12" is awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xSPYXEx wrote:
The Chaos codex is a good codex, IMO. I've never found it super powerful, nor have I ever felt like it was bad. It's what a codex SHOULD be, really. Too bad it gets put to shame by power codices.

What are the 'power codexes' in todays meta?

Havocs are good, but the ability to take extra bodies pales in comparison to Split Fire. Long Fangs remain the undisputed kings of Devestator-equivalents.

And Abaddon is nowhere near OP. If you're not playing Chosenwing all you get is a beatstick that more or less has to have a Land Raider to get himself anywhere before the game ends. Furthermore, he's not even the most powerful beatstick in the game.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Against Warp Talons I'd rather fire the poisoned rounds. Sure doesn't ignore armour, but more wounds (wounding on 2 as opposed to 4) against 3+ instead of 5++ kinda evens it out, and you don't have to be bothered about Gets Hot!

It depends on the size of the sternguard squad, in my opinion.

10 men? Fire the 2+ poison.
5 men? Fire the AP3 shots.

Isbjornen wrote:Yeah I play a pure Slaanesh list. I like picking a theme for my armies, so I try to stay true to Slaanesh whenever I can. I will admit the heresy of putting MoN or MoT on my Obliterators sometimes, but the MoS so sooo useless on them.

Well, do what I do. Use different Marks, but explain them differently. Obliterators with MoN in a Slaanesh army? Well, it's because they're on drugs and it made them much harder to kill.

labmouse42 wrote:What are the 'power codexes' in todays meta?

I've always had a problem with Black Templars and Eldar.

Isbjornen wrote:

 xSPYXEx wrote:
Warp Talons are overpowered? Oh man, that's rich. That really is. How much have they cried "Your Mutilator is too powerful!"?

But, judging from your use of Noise Marines, I'm guessing you gave the Warp Talons MoS? I can understand how dual lightning claws at I5 will make Spess Mehreen players mad. And yeah, Noise Marines are pretty awesome. I've had many a game against IG that ends in tears because their Aegis Line did nothing.

Have you used triple Baleflamer Heldrake spam against them? That thing runs on the hopes and dreams of orphans. (It goes fast)

The Chaos codex is a good codex, IMO. I've never found it super powerful, nor have I ever felt like it was bad. It's what a codex SHOULD be, really. Too bad it gets put to shame by power codices.

Yeah I play a pure Slaanesh list. I like picking a theme for my armies, so I try to stay true to Slaanesh whenever I can. I will admit the heresy of putting MoN or MoT on my Obliterators sometimes, but the MoS so sooo useless on them.

I would try 3 Baleflamer Heldrakes for the lulz, but I'm not that cruel nor rich

And you say you like Slannesh.

No Chaos is not OP I recommend showing them the assaulting into cover portion of the rulebook.

Lets face the game is full of whiners that cry OP at everything. Try and avoid those kind of people.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
Lets face the game is full of whiners that cry OP at everything. Try and avoid those kind of people.

Amen brother.

 captain collius wrote:
No Chaos is not OP I recommend showing them the assaulting into cover portion of the rulebook.

As a Nid player I'm positive that most Marines don't even know there's a penalty for assaulting into cover... they rarely use it (Why bother when my armor save is better?) or forget that they almost always have grenades.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Havocs are good, but the ability to take extra bodies pales in comparison to Split Fire. Long Fangs remain the undisputed kings of Devestator-equivalents.

Split fire is good, but it not ground-breaking. I would rather have autocannons than MLs with split fire in 6th.
Of course, its all about what you perfer.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And Abaddon is nowhere near OP. If you're not playing Chosenwing all you get is a beatstick that more or less has to have a Land Raider to get himself anywhere before the game ends.

Your playing Abbadon wrong if you think you need to push him in a land raider and shove him across the board. What you want to do with Abbadon is stick him with a squad of cultists and run him to mid field, or stick him with your marines and move him to mid board.
The goal of old'man Abbadon is to shout "Get off my Lawn!" when something like wraiths or thunderwolves come near your troops.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Furthermore, he's not even the most powerful beatstick in the game.

Hes the best IC in the game for challanges.
The only IC that can best him reliably is a necron lord with MSS, warscythe, weave, and phase shifter. The necron lord, unlike Abbadon can get bogged down by 10 marines.
Some other characters can smash him, like DP with black mace or Swarmlord, but those are not ICs and you can shoot at them directly beforehand.

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
No Chaos is not OP I recommend showing them the assaulting into cover portion of the rulebook.

As a Nid player I'm positive that most Marines don't even know there's a penalty for assaulting into cover... they rarely use it (Why bother when my armor save is better?) or forget that they almost always have grenades.

Probably I forget it most of the time to because it rarely hurts me. However ignorance doesn't change the rule. Also imagine the rage that will follow.

 captain collius wrote:

Isbjornen wrote:

 xSPYXEx wrote:
Warp Talons are overpowered? Oh man, that's rich. That really is. How much have they cried "Your Mutilator is too powerful!"?

But, judging from your use of Noise Marines, I'm guessing you gave the Warp Talons MoS? I can understand how dual lightning claws at I5 will make Spess Mehreen players mad. And yeah, Noise Marines are pretty awesome. I've had many a game against IG that ends in tears because their Aegis Line did nothing.

Have you used triple Baleflamer Heldrake spam against them? That thing runs on the hopes and dreams of orphans. (It goes fast)

The Chaos codex is a good codex, IMO. I've never found it super powerful, nor have I ever felt like it was bad. It's what a codex SHOULD be, really. Too bad it gets put to shame by power codices.

Yeah I play a pure Slaanesh list. I like picking a theme for my armies, so I try to stay true to Slaanesh whenever I can. I will admit the heresy of putting MoN or MoT on my Obliterators sometimes, but the MoS so sooo useless on them.

I would try 3 Baleflamer Heldrakes for the lulz, but I'm not that cruel nor rich

And you say you like Slannesh.

No Chaos is not OP I recommend showing them the assaulting into cover portion of the rulebook.

That is a rule I am fully aware of, and I have already made several recommendations to put your units behind cover to give Warp Talons I1 when assaulting into it, seeing that they do not have grenades.


I'm going to have to ask for something more specific now. I showed your opinions to the players who have delivered said whines, and the Eldar player stated as much as "your arguments are invalid because you don't talk about the Eldar versus CSM specifically". Would you mind tossing about your thoughts about Eldar versus CSM?

I'm going to have to ask for something more specific now. I showed your opinions to the players who have delivered said whines, and the Eldar player stated as much as "your arguments are invalid because you don't talk about the Eldar versus CSM specifically". Would you mind tossing about your thoughts about Eldar versus CSM?

Eldar on their own are rather frail. They're an older codex, and just about everything in the dex is overcosted at this point. Runes of Warding, Jetbikes and Eldrad are really the only things they have going for them. There are some really nasty combinations with Eldar and Dark Eldar though, in fact a Dark Eldar+Eldar list won the Onslaught GT.

EDIT:

To see you claim the Heldrake being powerful surprises me though. It's poorer BS makes the Hades Autocannons less appealing to me, leaving primarily as another anti infantry vehicle (albeit a flyer). Punching though the armour on flyers with AV12 isn't likely to succeed with its STR7 either in my opinion.

The Heldrake is far and away, the best unit in the CSM dex. Did you read the FAQ update? The Weapons are now turret mounted, and the distance is measured from the base. Vector Strikes also ignore cover. This is a very powerful combination. Yes, the Heldrake isn't spectacular against other flyers, but it is probably the best tool in the game for removing units from Objectives. The torrent rule lets you place the flamer where it needs to be, and it's wounding MEQs on a 2+, and not allowing them any saves. The Vector Strike can be used on lighter Vehicles like Rhinos, or other Infantry that you pass over. The Heldrake is also the most resilient flyer in the game, between the AV12, 5++ and IWND.

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
No Chaos is not OP I recommend showing them the assaulting into cover portion of the rulebook.

As a Nid player I'm positive that most Marines don't even know there's a penalty for assaulting into cover... they rarely use it (Why bother when my armor save is better?) or forget that they almost always have grenades.

Probably I forget it most of the time to because it rarely hurts me. However ignorance doesn't change the rule. Also imagine the rage that will follow.

Oh no - I agree absolutely. I make sure and point out when I'm penalized (one reason why Genestealers aren't as powerful as a lot of people think - I6 doesn't mean anything when assaulting into cover unless the target is already locked up)
If they don't use cover I won't even wait until after the battle (in a friendly game) - I'll point it out while they're moving the unit I'm about to charge. Then at least they can't claim ignorance.

 Sasori wrote:

I'm going to have to ask for something more specific now. I showed your opinions to the players who have delivered said whines, and the Eldar player stated as much as "your arguments are invalid because you don't talk about the Eldar versus CSM specifically". Would you mind tossing about your thoughts about Eldar versus CSM?

Eldar on their own are rather frail. They're an older codex, and just about everything in the dex is overcosted at this point. Runes of Warding, Jetbikes and Eldrad are really the only things they have going for them. There are some really nasty combinations with Eldar and Dark Eldar though, in fact a Dark Eldar+Eldar list won the Onslaught GT.

My point as of late with him is that the CSM codex is not OP, but rather that his codex is old and needs an update. An update which does look to be coming this year, but who knows when. At least their flyers seem to be incoming quite soon. I noted their transports being overpriced to a bunch, but is it really that bad overall? I mean, it must be more than possible to win against CSM with Eldar at this point, even without DE allies?

Isbjornen wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Isbjornen wrote:

 xSPYXEx wrote:
Warp Talons are overpowered? Oh man, that's rich. That really is. How much have they cried "Your Mutilator is too powerful!"?

But, judging from your use of Noise Marines, I'm guessing you gave the Warp Talons MoS? I can understand how dual lightning claws at I5 will make Spess Mehreen players mad. And yeah, Noise Marines are pretty awesome. I've had many a game against IG that ends in tears because their Aegis Line did nothing.

Have you used triple Baleflamer Heldrake spam against them? That thing runs on the hopes and dreams of orphans. (It goes fast)

The Chaos codex is a good codex, IMO. I've never found it super powerful, nor have I ever felt like it was bad. It's what a codex SHOULD be, really. Too bad it gets put to shame by power codices.

Yeah I play a pure Slaanesh list. I like picking a theme for my armies, so I try to stay true to Slaanesh whenever I can. I will admit the heresy of putting MoN or MoT on my Obliterators sometimes, but the MoS so sooo useless on them.

I would try 3 Baleflamer Heldrakes for the lulz, but I'm not that cruel nor rich

And you say you like Slannesh.

No Chaos is not OP I recommend showing them the assaulting into cover portion of the rulebook.

That is a rule I am fully aware of, and I have already made several recommendations to put your units behind cover to give Warp Talons I1 when assaulting into it, seeing that they do not have grenades.


I'm going to have to ask for something more specific now. I showed your opinions to the players who have delivered said whines, and the Eldar player stated as much as "your arguments are invalid because you don't talk about the Eldar versus CSM specifically". Would you mind tossing about your thoughts about Eldar versus CSM?

Um Hi warp talons have you met Howling Banshees, Fire dragons, darkreapers, war walkers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
No Chaos is not OP I recommend showing them the assaulting into cover portion of the rulebook.

As a Nid player I'm positive that most Marines don't even know there's a penalty for assaulting into cover... they rarely use it (Why bother when my armor save is better?) or forget that they almost always have grenades.

Probably I forget it most of the time to because it rarely hurts me. However ignorance doesn't change the rule. Also imagine the rage that will follow.

Oh no - I agree absolutely. I make sure and point out when I'm penalized (one reason why Genestealers aren't as powerful as a lot of people think - I6 doesn't mean anything when assaulting into cover unless the target is already locked up)
If they don't use cover I won't even wait until after the battle (in a friendly game) - I'll point it out while they're moving the unit I'm about to charge. Then at least they can't claim ignorance.

Good Man

With the ability to field a lot of S6 (War Walkers or Warp Spiders for example) Eldar should have no problem with a DP and Warp Talons.

A squadron of guided walkers should put a nasty dent in a DP.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Hes the best IC in the game for challanges.
The only IC that can best him reliably is a necron lord with MSS, warscythe, weave, and phase shifter. The necron lord, unlike Abbadon can get bogged down by 10 marines.
Some other characters can smash him, like DP with black mace or Swarmlord, but those are not ICs and you can shoot at them directly beforehand.

Abaddon, meet Ghazghkull. Ghazghkull, meet Abaddon. You were saying?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Abaddon, meet Ghazghkull. Ghazghkull, meet Abaddon. You were saying?

Of all the ICs, Ghaz is actually one of the closest to being able to punk Abbadon. The reason for this is his ability to get a 2++ for two rounds of combat. If Ghaz can set it up so he gets both rounds in his duel with Abbadon he will win.

The problem, of course, is that rarely happens. My buddy plays Ghaz and I face him once every other week. What always happens is this. Ghaz charges forward with 4 mega-nobs. I challenge with a PM aspiring champion if he popped his Waaaagh. Abbadon challenges on round two. That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.

If he waits until Abbadon has stepped up to the Challange, the PM champion will use his "Glorius Intervention" ability (p65 brb) to take the second round of 2++ saves for Abbadon. Since usually Ghaz does the charging, its Abbadon's turn on the second round, allowing the PM champion to do this.

Ghaz has many of the key elements to make him a beast in a duel.
* High damage output
* High damage resistance (2++ for two rounds!)
* EW
* High STR for insta-death
Hes good, really good actually. Only a few ICs can beat him, and Abbadon is one of them.

This topic is covered in great detail in this thread...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/504016.page

 Sasori wrote:

I'm going to have to ask for something more specific now. I showed your opinions to the players who have delivered said whines, and the Eldar player stated as much as "your arguments are invalid because you don't talk about the Eldar versus CSM specifically". Would you mind tossing about your thoughts about Eldar versus CSM?

Eldar on their own are rather frail. They're an older codex, and just about everything in the dex is overcosted at this point. Runes of Warding, Jetbikes and Eldrad are really the only things they have going for them. There are some really nasty combinations with Eldar and Dark Eldar though, in fact a Dark Eldar+Eldar list won the Onslaught GT.

EDIT:

To see you claim the Heldrake being powerful surprises me though. It's poorer BS makes the Hades Autocannons less appealing to me, leaving primarily as another anti infantry vehicle (albeit a flyer). Punching though the armour on flyers with AV12 isn't likely to succeed with its STR7 either in my opinion.

The Heldrake is far and away, the best unit in the CSM dex. Did you read the FAQ update? The Weapons are now turret mounted, and the distance is measured from the base. Vector Strikes also ignore cover. This is a very powerful combination. Yes, the Heldrake isn't spectacular against other flyers, but it is probably the best tool in the game for removing units from Objectives. The torrent rule lets you place the flamer where it needs to be, and it's wounding MEQs on a 2+, and not allowing them any saves. The Vector Strike can be used on lighter Vehicles like Rhinos, or other Infantry that you pass over. The Heldrake is also the most resilient flyer in the game, between the AV12, 5++ and IWND.

that's cheeseball. so much cheese. double cheese with extra parmesan.
i plan to start chaos but i wont take any drakes because that's just wrong. that and im not a fan of the model.

It can vector strike models it cant even draw line of sight on? what about models inside a building?

i also didnt realize it has 5++. ridiculous.