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Summary
Abbadon, simply put, is nearly the best IC in the game for duels. As an added bonus, he also can wreck entire squads at a time. While the CSM codex may be lack-luster in may ways, it is solid in one sense -- Abbadon will take any other IC's lunch money and send him home crying.
Sometimes luck does play a role, and Abbadon will die to a grot, but when doing mathammer we will go off averages.



2+ Saves
Having a 2+ save is a huge advantage in assault. Now that most ICs have a AP3 weapon, ICs with 2+ saves ignore 83.33% of incoming damage. This is why artificer armor and terminator armor is so important for ICs in duels.

Look at the number of ICs with AP2 weapons. Draigo got boned. Mephiston has become Ghazguls gimp. Vect is hell on heels until he faces Calgar in a duel. That's why ICs with power fists/power axes are so good -- they can get around the AP2 barrier. Of course, most of those are unwieldy which brings its own disadvantage


Other Forms of Durability
Abbadon also sports a T5, EW, and a 4++ save. This is important as first it means that he is wounded on a 5+ by most ICs -- meaning that hes 50% more durable vs STR 4 attacks than a T4 IC.
EW is critical to avoid ID blows from STR 10 weapons or force weapons. One lucky strike by Mephiston will end any IC without EW.


The Best Defense is a Good Offence
Abbadon is WS7, which means hes hitting most ICs on a 3+. His weapons are a STR 5 AP2 daemon weapon or a STR 8 AP3 weapon with shred.

He has perferred enemy 'most of the game...errr space marines'. This means when he hits and wounds on a 3+, hes really hitting and wounding 78% of the time.

In addition to this, Abbadon also 'hates' normal space marines. On the first round of an assault he is rerolling all failed hits vs marines.

Abbadon also has 'counter-charge' and 'rage'. If Abbadon is assaulted, he will have 6 attacks, and if he charges he will have 7 attacks. This works best when Abbadon is placed in a squad of plague marines, negating the extra attacks for charging that your opponent gets.

If hes facing a T4 opponent without EW, he can use the claw to ID him. The STR 8 claw also works great on dreads. Unlike power fists, it goes at I6. This means any normal space marine IC without EW should be renamed 'chum'. Even Vulcan with his 2+/3++ likely will die on turn 1, and probably won't make it past turn 2.

Against other targets, Abbadon can use his AP2 daemon weapon. Its STR 5, and he will have 8 attacks with it on average.

Part of what makes Abbadon just beat the face out of the other ICs is his ability to get so many attacks per round. Lysander will be hitting Abbadon three times a turn, while Abbadon can smack him in return up to 11 times a round. The sheer number of dice Abbadon can throw vastly scales things in his favor.



Who can beat Abbadon
I've done a bunch of mathammer, and none of these ICs can hold a candle to Abbadon. I can provide the mathhammer showing each of these cases.
Vect
Vulcan
Lysander
Azrael
Ghazghkull
Avatar (Fortuned)

So far, the models who can take Abbadons lunch money are the following
- Swarmlord
- Necron lord with MSS / Weave / Phase Shifter / Warscythe
- CSM DP with Black Mace
- Greater Daemons of Khorne or Slaanesh

Some can keep Abbadon from taking their lunch money
- Crowe dying with heroic sacrifice
- Librarian tooled to not die the entire game.

If you know anyone else let me know!


When to use what weapon
The mathhammer has shown a few guildelines for when to use which of Abbadon's weapons. There are exceptions, but here are good guidelines
On average Drach'nyen has 3 more attacks per round, but the "Talon of Horus" is STR 8.
* When going for the ID go with the "Talon of Horus". (Vulcan, Azrael)
* When going after T6+ targets, use the "Talon of Horus" (Avatar, Swarmlord)
* When going for an IC with EW, go with Drach'nyen (Ghazghkull, Lysander)
* When chopping up loyalist marine squads, use Drach'nyen.

See the sig file below? That's what Abbadon will do to your IC.

St. Celestine.
/thread

Old zogwart abadon aint doing nothing if he gets turned into a squig

- Edited -

Abby beats dragio every time, which is funny.
Only an archon stands a good chance of killing abby, drazar does as well though that ones a little more luck based. Also comes down to combat drugs on the archon.

Oddly enough, the best way to deal with abbadon is to use an ironclad dreadnought.

I've gotten lucky with termie Calgar and BT termie Marshal, EW and TH/SS, but in both cases he had already lost some wounds and did not roll very high on Drachnyen.

 juraigamer wrote:
Only an archon stands a good chance of killing abby, drazar does as well though that ones a little more luck based. Also comes down to combat drugs on the archon.

The archon's result is much like Vect, save that his attacks are AP2. The archon's problem is that Abbadon is immune to the husk blade's ID effect, and he wounds Abbadon on a 6. He also suffers from the problem Vect has -- one failed save means hes ID.

Oddly enough, the best way to deal with abbadon is to use an ironclad dreadnought.

Necron overlords with MSS, res orb and Warscythe has a 2+/3++/4+++, t5 with a s7 ap1 weapon. Even with ld10 Abby will fail the MSS test 50% of the time, and when he does he dies. All his own attacks plus the ap1 overlords attacks should make sure of that.

When he doesn't fail the MSS test, he still has a 1 in 6 chance of becoming ws1, as well as having to deal with a 3++ AND a 4+ RP. That's pretty resilient, and the Overlord is a good 100pts cheaper.

Yeah, as much as I love Celestine, you would never throw her at Abby unless you wanted to give him a free consolidate.

Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.

Of course, necron Overlords with 2+/3+ and a Warscythe could totally get the job done...

The MSS is what puts the overlord ahead

 labmouse42 wrote:
The archon's result is much like Vect, save that his attacks are AP2. The archon's problem is that Abbadon is immune to the husk blade's ID effect, and he wounds Abbadon on a 6. He also suffers from the problem Vect has -- one failed save means hes ID.

Venomblade may be a better option than the Huskblade. Don't have my books on me to do the math.

Either way though, it's an extreme uphill battle for an Archon.

If only Drazhar had a shadowfield...

 BarBoBot wrote:
Necron overlords with MSS, res orb and Warscythe has a 2+/3++/4+++, t5 with a s7 ap1 weapon. .

Sweet! You found someone who can keep their lunch money!
Btw, the lord is 90 points cheaper. That's without a CCB or anything like a ress orb

Abbadon vs. Necron Lord
Lets assume the Necron Lord has MSS, Warscythe, Phase Shifter, and Sempiternal Weave. Due to the MSS, the lord has a slightly better chance than average to kill Abbadon! The real trick are the MSS rolls, and that will make or break the battle. If Abbadon makes 3 of his rolls in a row, its good game to the lord. If he fails 3 times, then its over for Abbadon.

Remember, Abbadon gets his 4++ from the daemon weapon wound.


Abbadon using "Talon of Horus":
WS 7 vs. WS 4 = 66.66% chance to hit
S 8 vs. T5 = 86.33% chance to wound (increased to 97.22% with "Talon of Horus"),
Necron Lord has a 2+ save = 16.66% chance to get through, and
Abbadon has counter-attack and rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.

66.67% × 97.22% × 16.66% × 7 attacks = ~.76 unsaved wounds on the first round.
66.67% × 97.22% × 16.66% × 5 attacks = ~.54 unsaved wounds on the next rounds.
On round 6 in the assault Necron Lord will die from the the "Talon of Horus"


Abbadon using "Drach'nyen":
WS 7 vs. WS 4 = 66.66% chance to hit
S 5 vs. T5 = 50% chance to wound
Necron Lord has a 3++ save = 33.33% chance to get through, and
Abbadon has counter-attack and rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds Abbadon.

33.33% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.06, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 9 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.17, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.18, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.20, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 12 attacks × 16.67% = 0.22, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 13 attacks × 16.67% = 0.24 equals ~1.08 unsaved wounds first turn.

33.33% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 5 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.04, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.12, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 8 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.15, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 9 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.17, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.19, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.20 equals ~.88 unsaved wounds on rounds 2+
Necron Lord will likely die on round 4 of the combat.


Necron Lord:
WS 4 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit
Necron Lord wounds Abbadon on a 2+
Abbadon has a 4++ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and

50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 3 attacks = .625 unsaved wounds per round
Abbadon will die on round 7 of the assault.


MSS Monkey :
What makes this tricky is that only 1/2 of the time will Abbadon be dealing damage to the Necron Lord. The other 1/2 the time, hes hitting himself for .67 points of damage.
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 2 attacks × 16.67% = 0.04, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 4 attacks × 16.67% = 0.08, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 5 attacks × 16.67% = 0.10, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 6 attacks × 16.67% = 0.13, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 7 attacks × 16.67% = 0.14, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 8 attacks × 16.67% = 0.16 equals ~.67 unsaved wounds on rounds 2+
Necron Lord will likely die on round 4 of the combat.


Long Hand :
On round one, Abbadon will do 1.08 wounds to Lord. Lord will do .625 to Abbadon
On round two, Abbadon will hit himself for .67 wounds. Lord will do .625 to Abbadon.
On round three, Abbadon will do .88 wounds to Lord. Lord will do .625 to Abbadon
On round four, Abbadon will hit himself for .67 wounds. Lord will do .625 to Abbadon.
On round five, Abbadon hits lord for .88 wounds. Lord kills abbadon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.

Swarmlord is not an IC.

Don't forget the Tesseract Labyrinth, one failed save against that and Abby is gone, no save no nothing. So do a round or two of MSS to have Abby put a wound or two on himself and then banish his ass to the Tesseract!

Ninja'd by Angel

Necronic Angel wrote:
Don't forget the Tesseract Labyrinth, one failed save against that and Abby is gone, no save no nothing. So do a round or two of MSS to have Abby put a wound or two on himself and then banish his ass to the Tesseract!

I try to avoid using one shot insta-kill items in these challange calculations. Its like saying "fateweaver has a 1/6 chance of spawning abbadon every round"

That is a good point, though. You can increase the chances of the Tesseract Labyrinth working by waiting until your opponent is wounded.

Typhus? That could be interesting.

Also chipping in to say that the only time that I've seen Abaddon in a challenge was when he challenged my Ragnar. Ragnar won. You don't need to do the mathammer on that one, it is well known that Abaddon should really give Ragnar a good kicking with average dice.

Typhus does not have the attacks to do the job. He has 3 attacks that will hit on 4s, wound on 3s, and Abbadon ignores 50% of them. Typhus will be have his lunch money taken.

In order to beat Abbadon, you need something to vastly increase the damage delt (MSS), reduce his defense (swarmlords bone swords), or vastly increase your resilience (Ghaz if he gets both WAAAAGH rounds)

Not many ICs have the tools to do the job. Ghaz can if he gets both rounds. A Necron MSS lord has the second best chance.
Outside the ICs, the swarmlord and black mace DP are the best bets. Those, however, suffer from a lack of IC. The swarmlord will eat tons of lascannon shots on the way in and the DP will suffer the same. That's the advantage of being an IC -- look out sir.

True, but Typhus is decent at taking the hits and has the Destroyer Hive, but I agree with you. That just backs up your point.

Abbadon is quite the badass, I agree. Although, in general, I just plan to deny duels (which is why I haven't thought about with ICs are really good at it) because very little in the BA codex is any good at it. Ah, the irony.

What I found fascinating by this excercise was how bad the imperial ICs compared to the xenos ones. I would not have guessed it, but it seems xenos/chaos have the better ICs.

swarmlord, especially since his boneswords ignore armour saves and force successful rerolls of invuln saves. Give him iron arm for even more fun and games
Also I may be completely wrong but i though the swarmlord was an IC?
edit-just reread the entry, my mistake

Not shocking to me. Calgar's better than anything in the BA book, but I imagine there a plenty of xenos/chaos that can best him.

 Hive Fleet Lazarus wrote:
swarmlord, especially since his boneswords ignore armour saves and force successful rerolls of invuln saves. Give him iron arm for even more fun and games

Swarmlord is not an IC.

This thread was not titled "Beat this unit" Its specifically geared twords how Abbadon will take your ICs lunch money.

ICs have a nice advantage in that they are really hard to hurt in a unit. For example, if you stick Abbadon in a squad of 30 cultists, he just knocks off 5/6 of the incoming shots to cultists. The Swarmlord does not have that advantage.

That's why I specified ICs.

That being said, yes, the swarmlord will edge out Abbadon - especially if he draws "Endurance" or "Warp Speed"
"Iron Arm" does not help as much since Abbadon's claw has shred. Even a T8 swarmlord is still wounded 75% of the time.

Drazhar will have the best chance for DE characters. He will still most likely die, but it could happen.

A cheap Newcron overlord with MSS can do it easily though.

Typhus has a demon weapon, and defensive grenades when he is charged.

He will have anywhere from 4-10 attacks, but abaddon will hit first and probably kill him.

 Exergy wrote:
A cheap Newcron overlord with MSS can do it easily though.

The lord needs a warscythe, a Phase Shifter, MSS, and Sempiternal Weave to have better than even chances of doing it.

Anything less and he does not have the durability or damage output to do the job.

That clocks the necron overlord at 175. That isn't cheap. Its not stupid expensive, but it isn't cheap.

He gets all that for 175? My lord marine HQs suck.

Its give and take.

Sure, that lord will crush an enemy IC in assault, but it will do squat to 10 MEQ. The warscythe will kill 1-2 MEQ a round. The MSS will cause one MEQ to punch his buddy, and the rest will just beat into the lord.

Worst of all, if the lord wins CC, the marines just fall back out of his I2 easily, regroup then shoot the lord in the face.

That's the balancing factor.