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One should never cc with them and their special weapons havocs can do cheaper and better(ish). The only thing thats bad with havocs is that their heavy support. But looking past that fact are chosen really worth it?

CSM Heavy Support has better things to do than have guys tote around plasma/melta guns. CSM Elites does not.

Chosen are probably the fourth best (non HQ) thing in the army after Havocs, Bikes, and Helldrakes (in no specific order).

Only thing that's holding me back on them is the lack of proper models - If you're going for WYSIWYG the ones in Dark Vengeance are so limited equipment-wise it hurts.

Maybe building them from a box of ordinary CSMs?

I am looking at starting a CSM army based around the "Roaroing 20s" and I am planning on using chosen as a bodyguard for my Lord.

The thing I have liked the look of is 4x combi-meltas and a champ with dual lightning claws. Its gives me some close range anti-tank and a smurf to challenge for my lord so he doesn't have to. I am giving the MoS (although that is more of a theme then anything else) and running them as a boyguard (possible in that FW landraider that has scout).

Not a great set up, but it lets me have a sort of similar set up to SM sternguard and lets me model them up to be all fancy.

I really will have to disagree with what's been said here in this post. Chosen are way too expensive without ATSKNF, and die like 5-points-cheaper-marines. Taking a squad of them at higher numbers will soak up the points like no body's business, when they die the same to bolter/melta/plasma/autosannon/etc... as do their cheaper bretheren. So taking these guys is going to mean that you have less bodies on the field. Sure they might have special weapons, but they don't help with the defensiveness of the model, meaning that every shot your opponent takes is going to be doing more damage to your army. Shame that there is no drop-pod type thing in the army, as the chosen would benefit from it more than everything else.

When it comes down to it, they aren't worth their points for what you get. So that plasma gun or two are going to cost 5 more points and there will be less people between them and the things shooting, meaning that that 33 point model is going to be less effective than a regular marine with a plasma.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I really will have to disagree with what's been said here in this post. Chosen are way too expensive without ATSKNF, and die like 5-points-cheaper-marines. Taking a squad of them at higher numbers will soak up the points like no body's business, when they die the same to bolter/melta/plasma/autosannon/etc... as do their cheaper bretheren. So taking these guys is going to mean that you have less bodies on the field. Sure they might have special weapons, but they don't help with the defensiveness of the model, meaning that every shot your opponent takes is going to be doing more damage to your army. Shame that there is no drop-pod type thing in the army, as the chosen would benefit from it more than everything else.

When it comes down to it, they aren't worth their points for what you get. So that plasma gun or two are going to cost 5 more points and there will be less people between them and the things shooting, meaning that that 33 point model is going to be less effective than a regular marine with a plasma.

they have half the number but double the fire power of a 10 man CSM squad. adding extra models to the chosen appears to be overpriced. solution: dont do it.

the arguement that every shot at them hurts your army more is negated by the fact that every time they fire it hurts him more, alot more, especially when those plasmas blow up some vehicles or slaughter a bunch of terminators.

I dont quite agree with the internet in that close combat chosen are worthless. I run a unit of them myself (I run the DV chosen joined by Chaos Lord MoN Murder Sword Aura of Dark Glory Plasma Pistol and Gift) They do fairly well as a CC hammer if im honest

Problem with kitting them for CC is that once you give them power weapon, they're more expensive than terminators. I'm still going to do it, but it doesn't seem terribly effective us of points.

I'd run a squad of plasma Chosen if there were models for that. The CC ones are mostly problematic because of the usual problem for CC units these days - actually getting them to charge range.

A lot of people are tempted on loading the chosen up with a bunch of power weapons. That's generally a bad idea as it makes them extremely expensive for what they deliver.

A lot of people are tempted on loading a 5 man chosen squad up with 5 PGs. Well, if a rhino had 5 fire points that would be a good idea, but chosen are not IG vets. They don't have the right platform to load up on PGs.

Yet one of their best advantages is that you can bring 4 special weapons + 1 heavy/special weapon per squad. In order to help maximize that benifit, this is what I have been trying with my chosen squads.
2 bolters
2 flamers
2 PG/MG
1 AC
The idea is to try and keep the costs low. The autocannon is 10 points, which gives some good flexability to the squad. The PG/MG do the heavy lifting. The flamers provide good anti-hoard and also help detur assaults. The bolters are just bullet catchers.

Sometimes throwing MoN on the models is worth it. It increases the resilience-per-point to bolters by 30%, yet decreases the resilience-per-point to high str weaponry by 15%. If your expecting lots of bolter fire, give them MoN. If your expecting more flamers/poisoned/high str weaponry, leave em bare.

If you take chosen, Abbadon is a natural choice to make them scoring. Abbadon is his own reward, as he can go "Fruit Ninja" on most opposing units.

The thing about chosen is they are not very durable. They are also not fearless, nor do they have ATSNKF. I've had my chosen swept before. However, they do have 4 attacks on the charge, which can be very good when combined with Abbadon's ability to grant perferred enemy : Marines.

I am not guru on how to use chosen. Ive tried them thus far in 2 games with the formatting mentioned above, and had decent success with them. There is still a lot of tweaking involved, and you may have luck with different formats.

Worth it? If you know what you want them to do and how to pull it off, sure.

Taking them just for the hell of it, loaded out with all the nice shiny options? No way.

I think the extra wargear, rules and statline benefits actually make them only a point or 2 more than a marine with combat weapons, votlw etc etc.

They are however more of a glass cannon.

I like to run 5 flamers and a champ with a combi-flamer and lightning claw, in a cheap rhino to keep them really cheap.
They can pour on wounds like something else and have a fun overwatch.

Though I still play an assault army, regardless of what people say about 6th.

IMO, the Chosen are the prefect example of what the Codex CSM it not so impressive. You can built a good retinues for the lord but you will always find something better. They are like a good soup without salt. Sometime I saw them better is a SM codex than the CSM codex.

The best way to use them (for me) is 5 men squad, 5 flamers, mark of slasnesh in a rhino and going as fast as possible to burn troops as a suicidal squad.

For 3 pts each model you get a cc weapon, +1 A and +1 Ld. That seems a fair deal to me.

EDIT I mean that each model is 3pts more than a standard CSM.

Isengard wrote:
For 3 pts each model you get a cc weapon, +1 A and +1 Ld. That seems a fair deal to me.

EDIT I mean that each model is 3pts more than a standard CSM.

5ppm more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captaintyrius wrote:
I dont quite agree with the internet in that close combat chosen are worthless. I run a unit of them myself (I run the DV chosen joined by Chaos Lord MoN Murder Sword Aura of Dark Glory Plasma Pistol and Gift) They do fairly well as a CC hammer if im honest

possessed arent bad in CC, they just cost too much. CC chosen will not do well against dedicated assault units. They certainly wont give any terminators a run for their money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I really will have to disagree with what's been said here in this post. Chosen are way too expensive without ATSKNF, and die like 5-points-cheaper-marines. Taking a squad of them at higher numbers will soak up the points like no body's business, when they die the same to bolter/melta/plasma/autosannon/etc... as do their cheaper bretheren. So taking these guys is going to mean that you have less bodies on the field. Sure they might have special weapons, but they don't help with the defensiveness of the model, meaning that every shot your opponent takes is going to be doing more damage to your army. Shame that there is no drop-pod type thing in the army, as the chosen would benefit from it more than everything else.
When it comes down to it, they aren't worth their points for what you get. So that plasma gun or two are going to cost 5 more points and there will be less people between them and the things shooting, meaning that that 33 point model is going to be less effective than a regular marine with a plasma.

its a balance. Regular CSM with a plasma is gonna run 28 points and he might have some guys between him and the enemy but he only gets 1 (or 2) shots a turn. Being able to bring 5 in one squad, even with the champ and 1-2 bullet catchers is great. 7 guys with 3 plasma is about the same cost as 10 CSM with 2 plasma. So you are getting 50% more effective firepower at the cost of half of your bullet catchers.(8 chumps vs 4). MoN makes them more resilient, worth 3 points on chosen but rarely worth it on CSM. They have +2 attacks over regular CSM, meaning you arent going to lose them to assault against anything but a dedicated assault unit.
I think they are really only useful if you have abby making them troops, but if you do they are a good choice. My favorite is 7 guys, MoN and 5 flamers. Doesnt cost any more than 10 CSM with 2 plasma but is tactically much more focused and deadly.

The reason to take chosen used to be because you could infiltrate them, now that you can't do that...I'd say no, not worth their points

In the right situation, they're worth it. If you've shelled out the points for Abaddon as your HQ, then they're scoring units that can pack much more firepower than most of our troops can bring to bear (Havocs coming in just behind them). Also, the right load out is key - they have to have a role. Generally, mine are mobile tank hunters - 5 meltaguns in a Rhino w/ a Combi-melta. Against heavy TEQ armies a squad or two w/ plasmaguns is golden.

They can be pricey, but I find that when they're used for the purpose I've put them on the field for, I don't mind the expenditure. I will admit that when they had Infiltrate (and since I ran completely Mech in 5th ed they always Outflanked) they were a bit more survivable/useful, but they're far from useless now.

I am in the camp of not kitting them out for CC, as they soon eclipse the cost of terminators w/ none of the survivability. Maybe a power weapon on the champ for challenges if you're inclined, but I've found that once the 5 guys you've been using to melt tanks or plasma terminators gets into CC, they're pretty much written off anyway.

~Vryce

I use a 5 man squad to carry two plasma guns and two meltas for popping things that are hard to crack. I did this in 5th to greater effect, but they lost infiltrate now, so now it takes a little bit more work to get them into position correctly. They are ALWAYS in the rear ranks of my army now, unless I give them infiltrate via a warlord. They work out pretty well in tandem with Huron, though. And I never let them get into CC. Complete waste of points that way. Just buy a box of CSM and use all the fancy guns you can get your hands on with the heads and shoulder pads you think look best, then decorate them with the accessory sprue till there's no more room and they'll look fine and stand out from rank and file. I was thinking about just taking the dark vengeance ones and using them as aspiring champions.

 Exergy wrote:
its a balance. Regular CSM with a plasma is gonna run 28 points and he might have some guys between him and the enemy but he only gets 1 (or 2) shots a turn. Being able to bring 5 in one squad, even with the champ and 1-2 bullet catchers is great. 7 guys with 3 plasma is about the same cost as 10 CSM with 2 plasma. So you are getting 50% more effective firepower at the cost of half of your bullet catchers.(8 chumps vs 4). MoN makes them more resilient, worth 3 points on chosen but rarely worth it on CSM. They have +2 attacks over regular CSM, meaning you arent going to lose them to assault against anything but a dedicated assault unit.

Remember that chosen and PMs are the only units in the CSM codex that do not have the 10 points 'champion' tax.

If you give CSM an extra CCW, they wind up being 85 points. 5 chosen are 90 points. The chosen also have 2 attacks base and one extra LD.
Simply put the chosen are a great bang for your buck, when used properly. With 4 attacks per model on the charge, you can throw them into an assault and they will perform decently against a lot of targets.

 Exergy wrote:
I think they are really only useful if you have abby making them troops, but if you do they are a good choice. My favorite is 7 guys, MoN and 5 flamers. Doesnt cost any more than 10 CSM with 2 plasma but is tactically much more focused and deadly.

Flexability is the key factor with chosen. I also like the flamer as a great cheap upgrade. 10-15 points of flamers gives your chosen a lot of flexability. People want to assault them less often due to overwatch, and they are more useful against hoard armies. For a 10-15 point unit upgrade its a steal!

MoN is an interesting beast. It gives a 30% increase in resilience-per-point to STR 4 attacks like bolters. It however, gives a 15% decrease in resilience-per-point to weapons that are STR 6 or greater (or poisoned shots). This means bringing it or not is highly dependent on your meta. If your facing mostly STR 4 shots (which I view as the standard) its really good. If your facing mechdar, or DE venom spam than its a decrease.
This is less effective on CSM due to the RoI of MoN.

The problem though is simple. If your going up to 21 points a model for a chosen with MoN, why not go to 24 PPM for plague marines? They are like chosen but with FNP, blight gernades, and fearless. The poisoned weapons makes them as good as chosen when not charging. The FNP means that their 1/3 more durable vs > STR 10 attacks, shooting their resilience-per-point well above other armies.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
I think they are really only useful if you have abby making them troops, but if you do they are a good choice. My favorite is 7 guys, MoN and 5 flamers. Doesnt cost any more than 10 CSM with 2 plasma but is tactically much more focused and deadly.

Flexability is the key factor with chosen. I also like the flamer as a great cheap upgrade.

The problem though is simple. If your going up to 21 points a model for a chosen with MoN, why not go to 24 PPM for plague marines? They are like chosen but with FNP, blight gernades, and fearless. The poisoned weapons makes them as good as chosen when not charging. The FNP means that their 1/3 more durable vs > STR 10 attacks, shooting their resilience-per-point well above other armies.

In my world you only really take chosen if you are taking abby and once you are taking abby I find spending 130+ points on a melee Chaos lord with MoN to unlock PM to be worthless. You do one or the other.

By the time you kit out chosen with a variety of power weapons, fists, and/or lightning claws, you could have had a unit of deep striking terminators for fewer points. Which one is the more effective elite choice for Close Combat?

When I'm done with my two chosen units, I'll have maxed out plasma guns and melta guns, bee-bopping around in Dreadclaw Drop Pods (whenever Forge World puts them back on the site), supported by a level 3 Sorcerer.

 Exergy wrote:
In my world you only really take chosen if you are taking abby and once you are taking abby I find spending 130+ points on a melee Chaos lord with MoN to unlock PM to be worthless. You do one or the other.

I agree that the second lord becomes a 'tax' once you have Abbadon. The reason is simple -- Abbadon can go 'fruit ninja' on any enemy units that get close to your army.

The problem is, of course, that to create a lord with the same punch as Abbadon is extremely hard. You can fork out 130+ points on a lord that fails in challanges. Your best bet to make a MoN lord decent is to give him the following loadout for 147 points.
- Terminator Armor
- MoN
- LC in place of power weapon
- PF in place of bolter
This gives your lord a 2+/5++ with a STR 8 option, 4 attacks, or LC options. That's a good lord that will make lunchmeat of a lot of ICs in the game, but will still be punked by the powerhouse hitters. With only 4 attacks though, he can't clobber entire squads at once.
The second option is to move up to Typhus at 230 points. Typhus is much more of a beatstick, but he comes with the worst warlord trait in the game. Worst of all, without EW Typhus is punked hard by anyone with a STR 10 weapon, like a mega-armored warboss.

One of the big weakness's of PMs is a lack of CC. Its easy to be overrun by thunderwolves, wraiths, etc. The best solution to this I have found is to bring an IC that can completely wreck face and attach him to your PMs. I have found Abbadon to be fantastic in this role. His ability to go 'fruit ninja' on entire squads at a time has proven invalueable. So often I have found myself bringing Abbadon with my PMs just due to his face-wrecking ability, even though I've already bought a lord. Other lord, even Typhus, just can't deliver the pain like Abbadon can.

I've not really found the best solution to the problem at this point. Once I do, I will let you know.