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I'm in an escalation league and we finished the first game on Saturday at 500 points. Next Saturday will be the second game at 500 points and we need to use the same list for both 500 point games. I've been matched up against a Space Marine player and his list as far as I can tell is:

(Forgive the lack of details, I'm very unfamiliar with the game still.. I'm pretty new, been playing about 7 months total)
Cheap HQ
2x Small tactical squads as troops
2x Thunderfire cannons, plus techmarines

The important part here, is that I saw part of his game on Saturday and the cannons seem to be able to fire multiple blasts that take away any cover save. Also.. he was able to improve the ruins on the map, and simply parked his cannons in 3+ cover save areas. Since plenty of people at the FLGS run power armor armies I was prepared to fight against 3+ armor saves, but this I am not able to counter.

My list is:

Lord Commissar with a power sword
Infantry platoon with:
Command squad with x2 plasma
3 x Infantry squads with 3 missile launchers
Veteran Squad with x3 plasma

How in the world am I supposed to do anything about his list? I can't take a cover save against his shots, and even versus plasma and krak missiles he will have a 3+ save.. with a toughness 7 unit that has multiple wounds. And.. of course, he has TWO of the cannons.

I don't know what the scenario will be since it's announced the day of the game, and the tables are set up with terrain ahead of time. Could really use some advice here.

Chimeras/Vendettas. Laugh at his list that has no weapons capable of damaging AV 12 flyers.

 Peregrine wrote:
Chimeras/Vendettas. Laugh at his list that has no weapons capable of damaging AV 12 flyers.

I have to use the list that I already posted for the league.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Chimeras/Vendettas. Laugh at his list that has no weapons capable of damaging AV 12 flyers.

I have to use the list that I already posted for the league.

Oh. You're screwed then.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron Dragon wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Chimeras/Vendettas. Laugh at his list that has no weapons capable of damaging AV 12 flyers.

I have to use the list that I already posted for the league.

Oh. You're screwed then.

Consider it a lesson and hope to do better in the rest of the league. Now you've learned two things:

1) Always have the ability to counter long-range units, whether it's equally-long-ranged guns, deep striking units, etc. Never get into a situation where your opponent can just sit back and shoot and you have no viable plan for pushing out of your deployment zone and countering them.

2) Tanks and flyers are your friend, especially in small games where everyone expects to be facing infantry and can fill their list with anti-infantry weapons. Transports keep your troops safe until they reach the target (for example, veteran squads ALWAYS go in a Chimera/Vendetta), while gun tanks bring overwhelming firepower while being immune to most return fire. If you'd brought a Leman Russ or two you would have slaughtered your opponent effortlessly.


The best you can do here is try to play for a draw. Space everything out at absolute maximum 2" coherency to keep your opponent from getting more than one model under each blast template, and be absolutely sure that you hold your own objectives. Your opponent has no real options besides sitting back and shooting, so the most likely result is that both of you camp your own objectives and wait for the game to end. If there's an odd number of objectives and you place first, this lets you win. If there's an even number, be aware of secondary VPs and try to win on those. And since your opponent has so few scoring units even if there's an odd number and they place first they can only hold two of them at most, so just hold two of your own. Oh, and consider keeping the plasma squads out of LOS if there's appropriate terrain, just in case your opponent tries to move their tactical squads up and take your objectives.

Yes, this will be boring as hell, but it's your only shot at getting anything better than a one-sided loss.

Yeah, I'm definetly not going to be able to beat him in the shooting aspect of the game. I'd have to hit with 4+ rolls on my missile launchers.. then wound, and hope he fails multiple 3+ saves. And that's just one cannon. Ah well. Thanks for the help anyway!

Don't forget that you do also have plasma, which is where Vendettas/Chimeras would help (since they're immune to all of his guns). Plasma will kill the TFCs, but you have no way of getting it across the table and into range without getting shot to death by bolters. If your opponent is careless enough to let you get into plasma range then make them pay for the mistake.

Hope that you get an objective scenario, kill his 2 scoring units, spread your models the maximum distance that you can to limit what he can fit under the template.

Even with 3+ cover you should be able to focus his cannons down with you plasma and missiles. Also if you arrange your infantry in a line then the best he can do is hit 3 at a time and a scatter of more than 3" in the wrong direction is a total miss.

CrowSplat wrote:
kill his 2 scoring units

Not going to happen. If the opponent is smart he's going to have at least one of the tactical squads hidden out of range/LOS where it can safely claim an objective. Even if it isn't 100% out of LOS only the missile launchers have enough range to reach it, and they aren't going to do enough damage (especially since they're needed to deal with the TFCs).

Even with 3+ cover you should be able to focus his cannons down with you plasma and missiles.

Plasma is unlikely to do anything. It doesn't have the range to reach the TFCs without moving up, and as soon as it does it will die.

Well, you do have one advantage - your opponent only has two scoring units. You have seven.

If you can keep down the casualties against the TFC (2" displacement is your friend), then you might actually have enough to overwhelm him, or at least one of his 5-man tac squads. See, the one thing you've got going on is that your opponent is stuck defending two objectives, while you can easily hold two or three objectives AND send a bunch of troops forward to attack.

A TFC is much better in this edition than in 6th, but it's not an end-all. If you rush 40 dudes at your opponent, and your opponent can only kill 4 a turn with his cannon, then you'll arrive in your opponent's face on turn 4 with at least 2/3ds of your stuff. Once you get there, you only need to kill 5 marines. That's not THAT hard.

Moreover, if you fail to completely swamp your opponent, well, you've still got scoring units in your backfield, while he's been completely bottled up in his.

Peregrine's said a lot to help you in the future, but for the present, the best thing you can do is play a foot guard list like a foot guard list. Don't be scared of casualties, and play to the mission. If you play the game on your own terms, you still certainly stand a chance.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, you do have one advantage - your opponent only has two scoring units. You have seven.

Five, you mean.

And three of them are not going to be much help. The OP's huge problem is that his only real hope of stopping the TFCs at range is the missile launchers, and doing anything besides objective camping with those three squads means giving up the missiles. That leaves a horrible choice: either give up all shooting and rush everything in an all-or-nothing attack, or secure his own objectives and attack with the command squad and veterans (which aren't enough to do anything besides die pointlessly).

That's why camping is such a "good" option, it's the low-risk play that maximizes the chance of earning a draw or narrow victory and escaping the list-building mistake without much harm to his overall league record.

Once you get there, you only need to kill 5 marines. That's not THAT hard.

Actually it really is. If you're spread out at maximum 2" coherency to avoid being massacred by the TFC you're going to have a hard time getting enough bodies into combat to stay alive. And with no squad commissars it's going to be really bad when 2-3 guardsmen make it into combat, die horribly and fail the leadership test, and probably get the whole unit killed in the sweeping advance.

And then of course there's still the second tactical squad to worry about.

 Ailaros wrote:

A TFC is much better in this edition than in 6th, but it's not an end-all. If you rush 40 dudes at your opponent, and your opponent can only kill 4 a turn with his cannon, then you'll arrive in your opponent's face on turn 4 with at least 2/3ds of your stuff. Once you get there, you only need to kill 5 marines. That's not THAT hard.

Having regularly had to face a Thunderfire in 6th, I can say this isn't all that accurate.

Two thunderfires will kill 2-3 guardsmen per shot. 8 shots out of the two.

OP, hate to say it, but you flubbed your list. Rule #1 for IG at 500pts is bring 1-2 Tanks/Flyers.

Really, always bring a few vehicles with Guard. Or Artillery Carriages. Going full-foot is just asking to get beat up by ignore-cover stuff.

Best of luck though.

Really the only thing you could do against the thunderfire cannons would be to use cover so that you totally block line of sight to your guys with special weapons while you are moving forward. If you can totally block line of sight for your whole unit though and still do something, DO THAT FOR THE LOVE OF THE EMPEROR.

Artillery cannot move and shoot or snap shot, thats pretty much the only advantage you have. If you get a chance to kill the techmarines DO IT- it will instantly destroy their gun as well.

If you're going foot guard, don't pay for expensive upgrades. You need metal boxes to protect expensive guns.

Since you are facing 3+ saves no matter what, attempt to drown the enemy in saves.

As has been said, maximize spacing.

I would hold my objectives with the vets, giving them clear line of fire if the enemy tries to move on your objectives, and the other with the PCS. Keep them out of LOS if you can. Have the three remaining missile squads move up with no goal except to kill his tac marines. Without them he can't score. Have the Commisar support PCS, or integrate him into one of the infantry squads. Two TFC can only shoot two targets, if terrain permits blocking LOS then force your opponent to shoot at two infantry squads, while the third, with the commisar, is closing the distance to kill his tac squads.

This is, of course, if you get an objectives scenario. Best of luck to you!

I think I'll just try to park my guys behind some walls, and weather the storm to attempt a draw.

 Iron Dragon wrote:
I think I'll just try to park my guys behind some walls, and weather the storm to attempt a draw.

This is probably your best bet. Keep out of los and play to not lose. Who knows you may get lucky..

...?

You've got to kill your opponent's stuff eventually, or you're not going to win any of your games.

If your opponent can bring 10 infantry models and a cannon to a game and keep 60 infantry models cowering in fear, totally negating any advantage they have of superior numbers, then the horde player is doing something very, very wrong.

 Ailaros wrote:
You've got to kill your opponent's stuff eventually, or you're not going to win any of your games.

If your opponent can bring 10 infantry models and a cannon to a game and keep 60 infantry models cowering in fear, totally negating any advantage they have of superior numbers, then the horde player is doing something very, very wrong.

The part you're missing is that this is an unusual situation. The OP screwed up their list and has no option to fix it to get out of a difficult situation. Since it is an ongoing league the important thing is to reduce the overall impact to their record, which means playing for a draw or narrow loss (or, if the objectives are placed in the OP's favor, maybe even a narrow win), not throwing everything into an all-or-nothing gamble for a slight chance of winning.

Once the OP can change their list there will be plenty of time to work on figuring out a way of attacking effectively.

 Ailaros wrote:
...?

You've got to kill your opponent's stuff eventually, or you're not going to win any of your games.

If your opponent can bring 10 infantry models and a cannon to a game and keep 60 infantry models cowering in fear, totally negating any advantage they have of superior numbers, then the horde player is doing something very, very wrong.

The problem is that even if I spread out my models perfectly, which will severely reduce my ability to launch an attack, he can still hit at least 16 of my guys per turn with x8 blast weapons. A 30 man combined squad doesn't last long under those circumstances. The game's scenario may alter things a bit, for example if I get more objectives on my side of the map, he could be forced to attack me. But, as it stands right now, it doesn't look like the SM player is going to do anything except camp in 3+ cover ruins. I have no reason to stand there and be shot at.

You should always be able to get a save if you go to ground. Then he will have to make a choice as to which shot to fire.
Is there an order for cover???????? if so use it on all poss. units.
It is a shame as you are both using rock-paper-scissors lists and you are his prize opponent.

fireworm21 wrote:
You should always be able to get a save if you go to ground. Then he will have to make a choice as to which shot to fire.
Is there an order for cover???????? if so use it on all poss. units.
It is a shame as you are both using rock-paper-scissors lists and you are his prize opponent.

You get a bonus to your cover save if you go to ground.

The Opponent is using two cannons that ignore cover.

fireworm21 wrote:
You should always be able to get a save if you go to ground. Then he will have to make a choice as to which shot to fire.
Is there an order for cover???????? if so use it on all poss. units.
It is a shame as you are both using rock-paper-scissors lists and you are his prize opponent.

His guns can take away cover saves.

yeah but that one is AP 6 i believe ie you will get a 5+

fireworm21 wrote:
yeah but that one is AP 6 i believe ie you will get a 5+

It is AP5, so no.

 TheCaptain wrote:

fireworm21 wrote:
yeah but that one is AP 6 i believe ie you will get a 5+

It is AP5, so no.

No, the ignore cover shot is AP 6. So you will get 5+ armor.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

fireworm21 wrote:
yeah but that one is AP 6 i believe ie you will get a 5+

It is AP5, so no.

No, the ignore cover shot is AP 6. So you will get 5+ armor.

Silly me; you speak the truth.