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Just curious if anyone else thought it was a little weird that Tyranid Psykers can be possessed.

I don't have the Daemons codex, but is there any justification in the book as to why Tyranids can be affected? They don't draw on the warp for psychic powers, and I've never heard of Tyranids being influenced at all by Chaos.

Not complaining about it, though the day that I lose the Swarmlord or my Flyrant to it, I can't say I'll be too happy.

Of course they use the Warp. The Hive Mind is a warp entity.

Yes its silly that they can be posessed but not for the reason you are saying. Its because the Hive Mind is equal to the Chaos Gods in terms of raw power.

The same could be said if you are playing a mirror match. You can posess the opposing Daemon player's psykers.



But, we can still justify the mechanic. The daemon hasn't posessed the psyker, but rather has used it as a conduit to the material world. he can't posess the Tyranid, but he can pop out of its skull.

 rabid1903 wrote:
They don't draw on the warp for psychic powers,

They absolutely do.

 rabid1903 wrote:
and I've never heard of Tyranids being influenced at all by Chaos.

Look into the history then. I still own the white dwarf with genestealer chaos cults in it.

Nids use the warp. Nuff said.

This really depends on what source you go by.

By all the old fluff 4th and older, nids DO NOT use the warp. The powers that are manifested are created from the literal will of the hive mind. That was why the 4th codex had no perils of the warp at all.

5th... well they never even bothered to keep that bit of fluff. Everyone just assumes now that nids are warp-based powers because they take psychic tests. However, every single psychic power uses the hive mind rather than any mention of the warp. Therefore i would have to assume that they are still based soly on the hive mind. The naming conventions (see warp blast, shield ect) are imperium names for tyranid abilities and were rationalized as being misunderstood on naming. No tyranid has ever sat down and explained to the imperium what everything is called (nor would they understand or be able to reiterate, as funny as that would be).

Therefore no, it makes no sense whatsoever for demons to posses Tyranid psykers. But GW doesnt think like this when designing codexes.

 zephoid wrote:
This really depends on what source you go by.

By all the old fluff 4th and older, nids DO NOT use the warp. The powers that are manifested are created from the literal will of the hive mind. That was why the 4th codex had no perils of the warp at all.

5th... well they never even bothered to keep that bit of fluff. Everyone just assumes now that nids are warp-based powers because they take psychic tests. However, every single psychic power uses the hive mind rather than any mention of the warp. Therefore i would have to assume that they are still based soly on the hive mind. The naming conventions (see warp blast, shield ect) are imperium names for tyranid abilities and were rationalized as being misunderstood on naming. No tyranid has ever sat down and explained to the imperium what everything is called (nor would they understand or be able to reiterate, as funny as that would be).

Therefore no, it makes no sense whatsoever for demons to posses Tyranid psykers. But GW doesnt think like this when designing codexes.

These were the same things that I was thinking, as I don't recall a single mention of using the warp in the Codex. Their faster-than-light travel doesn't even use the warp. DarknessEternal, Grey Templar, and juraigamer do you have any evidence of this? I honestly would like to see it, I don't like being wrong about things. I just don't see the Hive Mind being considered a warp entity. I do however understand that the premise of not possessing-but popping out of the skull. That part makes sense now.

The idea of Genestealer Chaos Cults is really interesting. Do you by chance know if it was just cultists who happen to have a really unfortunate time with a Genestealer, or if it was Genestealer cultists who turned to Chaos? I mean, they have the whole "defend my spawn, no matter the cost" mentality that might lead them to chaos.

Because the Shadow in the Warp is a warp effect, and is the only direct evidence of the Hive Mind's existance, we can deduce that it is definitly a Warp Entity of some sort.

It could be akin to a massivly strong psyker who's "body" is the actual hive fleets themselves. Every Nid is just part of a massive psyker.

Of course, without a singular body and its conciousness connected with all its part via the Warp it is just as valid to call it a warp entity as thats the best way to describe it.


Either way, it definitly uses the Warp as a source of its powers.

And even if it technically didn't, psychic powers are the best way to represent them in the game. Which will lead to interaction with other psychic powers.

Sacrifices must be made for the sake of gameplay.

Grey Templar,

I can definitely see quite a bit of that. The Shadow in the Warp I have heard best as the result of communication between Tyranids. Which means that the simplest conclusion is Tyranids use the warp to communicate.

Now, seeing as how the technology for communication has been translated to weaponry-I can see how their psychic powers can be drawn upon from the warp.

The next question I have though, is the Shadow in the Warp drowns out the warp. It makes it so nothing can get through (psychic communication is cut off, powers are difficult to manifest, ships lose course, etc.) Knowing that, how can a daemon exist in the warp near a Tyranid?

Granted, this is assuming my interpretation of the warp is correct (alternate parallel dimension)

Yeah, the fluff does make for Daemonic Invasions not being likely near a Tyranid fleet.

But again, the game requires suspension of how it would actually work for the sake of gameplay.

Grey Templar,

Very true, and I'll always accept a suspension of disbelief if it means a game of plastic dudesmen is better. Even though 6th edition is supposed to be all about "forging a narrative."

GW's vision of a narrative and my version, and most likely your vision as well, are slightly different.

I'm kinda half way with liking GW's way of doing things and half way not.

Grey Templar,

Yah that sounds about right haha. Thanks for the info though, I always like learning about the history and lore of the game.

If a greater daemon can possess the body of an Eldar Avatar of Khaine, I'm pretty sure anything goes. It's not so much that it needs to be a Psyker to be possessed, it's just that psykers attract the gaze of daemons in the warp. A daemon can possess a ship, it can possess the hollowed out body of an avatar, anything as long as it can contain it's essence.

The way I have always envisioned the "Tyranid psychic powers" issue is as follows:

1) Tyranids are psychic, and have a Warp Presence of sorts.
2) Tyranids are able to communicate with one another through the Warp because of these Warp Presences.
3) Some Tyranids are merely "receivers" for psychic communication; others are "nodes" that send and receive. A Termagant can only receive (and maybe send within its own brood), but a Warrior can send and receive, and can "access" a Termagant's mind for information.
4) This massive flow of communication through the Warp can be so dense that it drowns other psychic signals out, and can smother non-Tyranid Warp Presences.
5) This flow of information is so complex and detailed that in many ways it is "alive", in the same way that in some respects a swarm of bees is "alive", except this is on a far grander scale and more complicated; this is the "Hive Mind", more than the sum of its parts.
6) Tyranid "psykers" harness the power of this flood of psychic power and direct it in useful ways. In a similar way to the way a Tzeentchian Sorcerer harnesses the power of his Chaos God, a Hive Tyrant can harness the power of the Hive Mind. In a way, their very act of continuously talking to one another creates their own private Chaos God (it's not a Chaos God, but it's an interesting analogy, especially since the Chaos Gods are largely sustained by mortal emotion).



As for the possession of a Tyranid character; it's just game mechanics. If your game requires a fluffy explanation, I'm sure we can come up with some techno-babble for it. A particularly canny Daemon manages to "surf the waves of the Hive Mind" and pop out of the flesh of a Tyrant?

Didn't take long to find that fluff that the nids use the warp, warp lance and blast both say they use the warp.

Formosa,

I am home now so I have access to my codex. I read the entries on Warp Lance and Warp Blast, and some of the terminology is odd.

Here are the entries:
"The Zoanthrope taps into the raw power of the Hive Mind, unleashing it as a blast of pure Warp energy that arcs from its oversized cranium."

"The Zoanthrope focuses the Warp power it has harnessed into a more contained stream, firing a single devastating bolt that can punch through fortress walls and vapourise a battle tank."

This pretty heavily supports what Grey Templar and Xyptc have said, that the Hive Mind is a Warp entity.

Primarily because the "taps into the raw power of the Hive Mind" and "pure Warp energy." Meaning that the Hive Mind contains Warp energy and would be considered a Warp entity.

So in a way, the hive mind is the chaos god of hunger.
Just nobody except nids gets that hungry.

I can see why there could be chaos genestealer cults, they'd normally be too far from any Hive Fleets to be protected by the Hive Mind. I agree that the Hive Mind is a warp entity, but I think Tyranid Psykers channel the Hive Mind itself, within and via the warp, rather than pure warp energy, apart from Genestealer cult psykers which would probably use raw warp energy when outside the influence of the Hive Mind.

 BoomWolf wrote:
So in a way, the hive mind is the chaos god of hunger.
Just nobody except nids gets that hungry.

Yes and no. It would be more accurate to say that the Hive Mind is the Chaos God of Tyranids, and since Tyranids' primary motivator is to feed and replicate, that is also the core goal of the Hive Mind.

The Hive Mind appears to rise directly from Tyranid psychic communication though, where as Chaos Gods happen almost by chance; the emotions of mortal beings in our universe are reflected in the Warp, and those reflections have come to life. On the other hand, Tyranids don't create the Hive Mind because they are hungry, rather they create it because they are Tyranids and they are all talking to one another.

As many have already stated, there is evidence to support the idea of a Tyranid creature being possessed.

What makes no sense to me (fluff-wise anyway) is that Daemons are just as vulnerable to Perils of the Warp as mortal psykers. I understand the need for it (to keep Daemons from being overpowered) but the fluff for it directly contradicts the rule being in place. The fact that Eldar are more resistent to Perils of the Warp than creatures that are actually OF the Warp is kind of silly.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
As many have already stated, there is evidence to support the idea of a Tyranid creature being possessed.

There is a WD issue that not only talks about how it could happen, it also shows several conversions and rules.

Chaos is the opposite of reality. Thus it can make the impossible possible. If you say "it can't" Chaos says "it just did".

Nah, the reasons Daemons are subject to Perils is because they need a sort of "link" between the Warp and Realspace for them to exist in the material realm. When they are forced to take Instability tests, that link is being disrupted, and may get weaker, or may come back stronger. They take damage from Perils because even a daemon, of a given form, can only handle so much energy flowing through it before it "blows a circuit" or overloads its corporeal form. This link, too, can be "overloaded" (think trying to pour a gallon of water into a shotglass... there's going to be some spillage).

Xyptc wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
So in a way, the hive mind is the chaos god of hunger.
Just nobody except nids gets that hungry.

Yes and no. It would be more accurate to say that the Hive Mind is the Chaos God of Tyranids, and since Tyranids' primary motivator is to feed and replicate, that is also the core goal of the Hive Mind.

The Hive Mind appears to rise directly from Tyranid psychic communication though, where as Chaos Gods happen almost by chance; the emotions of mortal beings in our universe are reflected in the Warp, and those reflections have come to life. On the other hand, Tyranids don't create the Hive Mind because they are hungry, rather they create it because they are Tyranids and they are all talking to one another.

I would suggest that the hive mind would be the chaos god of hunger and reproduction (and thus life, and, in a way, also death).

No, the Shadow in the Warp is just that: a presence that blocks out the warp. The Nids' are extragalactic, and hence entirely alien to this galaxy- the warp is made out of the emotions and feelings of sentient creatures in this galaxy, and Nids don't have any emotions and feelings (that we know of) aside from instinctive reactions.

The interactions between tyranid creatures and chaos are still unknown, but we can assume non-synapse actions do fuel the Chaos gods but when under the control of the Hive Mind, a gestalt entity which is powerful enough to block out the Warp itself, we can assume its 'psychic' might comes from entirely different source altogether.

When the 6th edition Tyranid book comes out it should clarify this, hopefully.

 zephoid wrote:
5th... well they never even bothered to keep that bit of fluff. Everyone just assumes now that nids are warp-based powers because they take psychic tests.

Actually it is still in the codex, just under army rules on page 33 rather than the fluff section:

Many Tyranid creatures are also psykers. They do not draw power from the Warp in any fathomable way, but rather they harness a fraction of the Hive Mind's Gestalt will. This makes no difference for game purposes and these models still follow all the normal rules for psykers - a Perils of the Warp attack instead representing massive cerebral trauma or synaptic feedback.

It's worth noting that in a wider sense, possession doesn't necessarily need the afflicted to be using the warp in any way to begin with. Daemons may simply be attracted to a slightly brighter "spark", and on a battlefield that's already suffered some kind of rift or otherwise in order for an entire army to appear, it's entirely feasible that the Daemon has been able to force its way into the Tyranid in question "just because".

Admittedly, this particular rule goes against that grain by only affecting psyker models, but hey - there is a fluffy explanation there if you're willing to reach for it.

Not to drag the thread (too far) off topic, but... What about a warp storm roll of 11 with Grey Knights?

don't go there.

But it will probably be FAQ'd to not effect models from the GK codex.