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I've seen some sources suggesting that Alpha+ psykers can snap Titans in half. Then again, Tigurius is supposed to be among the strongest psykers in the galaxy simply because he accessed the Hive Mind and lived.

So, exactly how strong are higher level psykers? If they can really do things like level cities, then why aren't Librarians the ones leading space marine chapters?

And what does a Mastery Level X map to, anyway?

reaper with no name wrote:
I've seen some sources suggesting that Alpha+ psykers can snap Titans in half.

True. Magnus the Red has destroyed Titans psychically, as has Fulgrim. Cherubael also managed this unbound.

Though keep in mind that even Alpha Plus psykers have their specialties.

Then again, Tigurius is supposed to be among the strongest psykers in the galaxy simply because he accessed the Hive Mind and lived.

Read above. Tigurius is a particularly powerful telepath and diviner, not a pyrokine or telekine. Also, specifically, he is suggested to be among the most powerful psykers in the Imperium, not the galaxy. There is a difference. Ahriman for example is considerably mightier, as is Eldrad, or any Alpha Plus psyker IMO.

So, exactly how strong are higher level psykers? If they can really do things like level cities, then why aren't Librarians the ones leading space marine chapters?

Because there is more to leading a chapter than being really powerful. I'd argue that in most cases the Chief Librarian is the most powerful member of the Chapter. Mephiston and Tigurius are more powerful than Dante and Calgar respectively, IMO.

Also, I doubt any Chief-Librarian is Alpha Plus. Alpha Plus psykers tend to be insane, and IIRC when the Black Ships find them young, they just kill them.

And what does a Mastery Level X map to, anyway?

Not sure what you are talking about here.

Is there a correlation between mastery levels and the assigned levels used in the fluff (gamma, epsilon, beta, etc)?

/shrugs

Not that I've seen.

Well Fulgrim was empowered by Chaos, and didn't exactly destroy the titan, so much as liquify its crew IIRC.

There was that psyker from The Serpent Beneath that could pretty much move a city (or asteroid) as I recall?

Another reason for them not leading the chapter is that psykers have an increased risk of turning to Chaos or having their head explode; which is generally something they'd rather Chapter Masters didn't do.

 Just Dave wrote:
Well Fulgrim was empowered by Chaos, and didn't exactly destroy the titan, so much as liquify its crew IIRC.

He made them mutate and expand with enough force to blow up the top of the Titan. That counts IMO.

There was that psyker from The Serpent Beneath that could pretty much move a city (or asteroid) as I recall?

I dunno, not read.

Another reason for them not leading the chapter is that psykers have an increased risk of turning to Chaos or having their head explode; which is generally something they'd rather Chapter Masters didn't do.

I think that risk is relatively puny for Chief-Librarians, but yeah it is still greater for the Chief-Librarians.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
Well Fulgrim was empowered by Chaos, and didn't exactly destroy the titan, so much as liquify its crew IIRC.

He made them mutate and expand with enough force to blow up the top of the Titan. That counts IMO.

I'd agree that it still counts, but he's not exactly Alpha Plus IMHO and its not quite the same display of power of Magnus or snapping one in half.

Fulgrim might indeed not be Alpha Plus, but if he is not, and he could accomplish that, then it affirms the notion that an Alpha Plus level psyker could indeed manage this.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Fulgrim might indeed not be Alpha Plus, but if he is not, and he could accomplish that, then it affirms the notion that an Alpha Plus level psyker could indeed manage this.

If you don't take into account the whole imbued by Chaos thing...

*Im not denying that an Alpha Plus could destroy a titan btw*

I though Fulgrim/EC considered PP as inperfection ??? Also this was after he/them changed their opinion (after experiments and talking sword) ?

Despite a popular believe, I would argue that those psykers are in fact quite vulnerable to predators of warhammer's universe. Emperor like psykers was shown again and again to be in mortal danger and even killed. One great example is Teturact in soul drinkers novel. He was very much like as arrogant and powerful as emperor was. His undoing was purely from his own arrogance, imagining himself as undefeatable god he had exposed himself and for that, he was quickly killed. Same could have easily happened and to Emperor, there are many predators capable of killing him. Against certain foes, Emperor would not have even a fighting chance. Warhammer is a deadly place where even most powerful beings are prone to worst of fates.


Also, I would argue that even Magnus the Red was forced to sell his soul during battle of the fang due to his arrogance. The one simply cannot recover instantly from constant beating even if he is as powerful as alpha psyker. Look at the Emperor, if one could recover so easily then certainly, Emperor could not have died after defeating his son. Also I think that Magnus was almost killed by a titan in a novel "Thousands sons". Only support of his entire army and valiant effort of his captain's psychic shields in protecting their primarch are the only things that had saved theirs beloved primarch.


Now the Ahriman, my own favorite. In novel "battle of the fang" was mentioned that Ahriman wasn't just a child who was expelled from legion for his incompetence. With him, all of the finest and brightest of Thousands sons have left! They have defied their own primarch and sided with the one, who made so much ''harm'' to their legion. They have chosen an exile rather than to further suffer their incompetent father. That is a very tasty and healthy bit of fluff. Usually, Adeptus Astrates are shown as childrens then it comes to their primarch. They suddenly loose all of their ability to think for themselves and are in childish and religious awe of their father. That rises another question.


Is a very powerful psyker as a rule have unnatural charisma? For example, all but most strong-willed fell under Emperor's charms. You can see this in novel ''Mechanicus''. Priests of Mars realised quickly that Emperor is offering them not a choice, but ultimatum: ''Join me or fight me''. Also, they were not blind to Emperor's true plans of eradicating Mechanicus after his great crusade were over. Great schism of mars weren't just a result of Horus Heresy. It was ongoing from the very moment then Treaty of Olympus was signed and ideologic wars were ''fought'' even at the height of Emperor.
Heh, not everyone have balls and will to resits charms of gods and to actively defy them.



Then I mention Ahriman, I mean him and his brothers who are few individuals in this universe who are strong enough to truly use chaos as a tool or at least resist a damnation involved in siding with chaos. Remember how Eldar look down on humans for their foolish and reckless submission to it.


Now the Tigurius. You all know how powerful and useful he is. I really doubt that even the Emperor could match his talents in future telling. And that about Ahriman and his little ''Kill everyone'' rituals? I see him as powerful or even more so than his own father, The Magnus. Also, I would say that his way of ''more direct implications of sorcery'' makes him the most useful entity in whole warhammer universe. Tell me of wonders that Emperor made on battlefield! He, like a pussy relied entirely on martial might of entire Imperium for his ''Great crusade''. Where was his future telling? Where was immense demons spilling out of the warp? When was a last time where he used his own immense personal might appropriately and not for the last minute saving in order to steal all the glory. No, better to treat everyone else like a child, incompetent at everything. This is main undoing of great psykers. Magnus the Red, The Emperor and Teturact, they all payed dearly for their own arrogance and glory-seeking for their own egos sake.


(It's similar situation and with Adeptus Astrates and Imperial Guard. One will make all the work and in the end will only require a small, but critical boost to destroy theirs opponent. Astrates contribution in w40k massed conflicts usually are small ones compared to guardsmen and yet, they take all responsibility for victories and leave any blame to guardsmen.)


In the end I would like to add that even his loyal ground commander questioned Magnus wisdom in siege of Fang, saying that more direct means of sorcery's application would have saved Prospero. I was shocked at how easily he had sacrificed his own son at the excuse of fate. I would love to see their reaction if all dirt of Magnus the Red would have been fully revealed. Ah, that a joy would be to see an entire Thousands sons legion abandoning their primarch and placing Ahriman in his place!


Btw: ah my poor Cyrus. I feel sorry for you. I will most certainly follow you if your near-infinite patience will ever be exhausted.

^ You sir deserve an exalt !

In answer of your question, personal might is a virtue far away from ability to lead. Humans are not orks, so the biggest and meanest human will not necessarily have an authority.
Look at Macharius for example. A simple human with such natural talent for leadership that he is far superior to Emperor in leadership. Or a Creed. Or Roboute Guilliman. Or Abbadon. They all have their strengths and weaknesses in commanding, but one is sure, they are far better leaders than a random, but very powerful psyker.

For example: Magnus is a schemer, not a leader, strategist or tactician. His assault on Fenris was almost a complete disaster that reduced his legion to a beggar's level. Emperor was a victim of his own arrogance and self-delusion. Teturact was a psyker who knew how to use his abilities to full-extent, but he did not had a talent for leadership. I know nothing about Tigurius skills as a leader, but seriously, how hard is to command then you know next steps of your enemies? Heck, even then, it's better to provide this information to more skilled in command rather than assuming leadership yourself. A great example of this is Dark Apostles. They usually leave actual leadership to their captains in order to concentrate on their main role in communication with gods and speech writing*.


* I mean, Dark Apostles are very skilled in convincing you to join their rank. Look at Eliphas in dark crusade. His every heretical line is a gold as it should be. As a dark apostle, it's your job to ignite a religious fervor in your army and to make everyone absolutely obsessed with your cause.
Think about it, why word bearer's fighting style is so pleasant for demons? Why they are so quick to respond to their pleas for help? Answer is: their entire legion consists of religious fanatics who differs very little from demons in their single mindlessness. They feed them on battlefield and in the warp as no other. They freely allow themselves be possessed. They are most pleasant and most valuable fighting force in W40k for them and to see it being annihilated or to bleeding is a direct and serious blow to their power in material universe and amount of emotions that are being feeded to them.
It's a power of specialisation and utilisation of one's talents. Dark Apostles instead of needing to be great in every thing, have spend their time in shaping their legion to be perfect at that they do and in return, they have gained support of all chaos gods.

reaper with no name wrote:
I've seen some sources suggesting that Alpha+ psykers can snap Titans in half. If they can really do things like level cities, then why aren't Librarians the ones leading space marine chapters?

Librarians aren't usually if ever at that level of power. Psykers beyond the Mastery Levels in the BRB are very rare compared to the chaff you feed the Emperor or the promising candidates the Inquisition recruits. Also, one so powerful will often start getting ideas when they realize exactly how powerful they really are. If one happens to be captured it's seldom even worth the risk of training and indoctrinating psykers that blow up city blocks just by raising their eybrows at a stupid question or command.

Isn't there something about psykers being more detectable through the warp if they're more powerful?
I believe this is the reason for quite a few things:

1) Powerful psykers will get preyed upon by daemons far more than anyone else - which can drive them insane.
2) They will be found by the IOM much faster than usual.
3) The combination of the first two points probably leads to them being executed on sight by the witch hunters of the IOM.
4) If they survive, the'd probably turn to chaos.
5) Meaning the IOM would send it's forces to actively try to kill them.
6) Which means that you'll probably never see an Alpha plus psyker in any SM chapter, but possibly among the traitors (Maybe Ahriman)

Imperium's way of training a psyker is a very much conservative one. They instal neuro-inhibitors, fail-safe devises, a complete micro-circuitry and neuro-active wiring is used to bleed away excessive Warp energies. Their training emphasises on conserving yourself. Imperium doesn't have a luxury of warm welcoming from denizens of the Warp, so they must concentrate on avoiding them and on not tearing too wide rifts between real space and immaterium.
Remember ''Thousands sons'' novel. Many have succumbed from over-ussing their powers in rage. They just opened warp too widely and couldn't close it up. Pressure from another realm poured in as energy which couldn't be spent quickly enough and many of Thousands sons less experienced psykers just exploded. Remember initiates who were forbidden to use their powers until very last moments. Remember how they ended up throwing tanks around with ease and exploding later? Or a captain who were mutated just because he juiced himself up in warps energies and accelerated flesh change due to that. On top of that, there are no telling how many demons had spilled into their bodies. Their possession at first are subtle and they take their time to set up, a good thing that they were mainly killed off by space wolves. Being a strong willed individual possessed by demon is one of worse fates possible. You remain conscious and impotent observer of demon's actions and depravations.

Psyker, no matter how powerful one, always have a danger of opening warp too wide and exploding. This is a main reason why one must be subtle with usage of its own powers, tie effects of the warp to spells and not to over-extend in showcase of their own powers.

Ernestas wrote:
In answer of your question, personal might is a virtue far away from ability to lead. Humans are not orks, so the biggest and meanest human will not necessarily have an authority.

Eldrad was both though, competent leader and psyker. I would also argue he's an exception to:

Ernestas wrote:
This is main undoing of great psykers. Magnus the Red, The Emperor and Teturact, they all payed dearly for their own arrogance and glory-seeking for their own egos sake.

His sacrifice was about as selfless as they come in 40k.

I've always pictured Alpha-Plus Psykers as being somewhat of an anomaly among the ranks of psychically-sensitive individuals. There's not very many of them and they are usually killed on sight. The ones that do survive almost always fall to chaos because of their close relationship with the Warp and the nasty Daemons that inhabit it. I could have sworn I read somewhere that there was a Chaos Pyker who was capable of destroying planets. I can't for the life of me find the reference but I'm pretty sure it exists. Regardless, Alpha-Plus psykers are capable of snapping Titans in half and spontaneously summoning legions of Daemons.

As bad and inaccurate as the movie is, I always pictured Alpha-Plus Psykers to be somewhat like Jean Grey/Phoenix in the third X-Men movie, spontaneously destroying matter around them:

Eldrad was both though, competent leader and psyker. I would also argue he's an exception to:

I meant that being powerful doesn't influence you ability to lead or strategise in any way. You still need to learn those things as everyone else do.

His sacrifice was about as selfless as they come in 40k.

That I meant is not his final death. All those ''last minutes'' helps from the Emperor speaks poorly of him. He shouldn't be the one who are doing saving. He should be where his talents are best utilised in a first place. For example, in Battle of Gyros Emperor seemed to be conviently sitting with his most elite and well-equip strike squad/bodyguards waiting for most dramatic moment to strike. There is a place in ''Mechanicus'' novel there he begins to repair a knight of Adeptus Mechanicus with his psyhic abilities... Similar situation was and with Horus heresy. To be such blind and so foolish in your own actions...

Emperor lost at least two legions then they was most needed: Thousands sons and Word Bearers and exhausted a strength of Space wolves + he placed them in a wrong place at a wrong time. He accepted Horus challenge and boarded his ship then he could just blasted his ship to hell (Shields must be lowered or taken down in order to teleport). Why to do so? Why to go into obvious trap? Also, I think that at that point all space marines and rest of Imperium was speeding into holy Terra and Horus was hard-pressed to end this as quickly as possible until he will become surrounded and outnumbered. Emperor needed just to blast his ship to hell and use shock to his advantage in order to buy more time for his fleet. That would have been a far safer and better solution.

To me it seems that the Emperor was only one caught unaware of brewing Horus heresy... If you dig fluff you could say that few were caught as unaware as Emperor was. Everyone knew that something was wrong. Damn it, tech-priests of Mars knew that was going on long before anyone did and they actively laid foundations to it by playing with their supply logistics. Those cyborgs/machines are not to be underestimated for theirs part was critical in Horus plan. And if whole Mars would have known the truth then Horus heresy unquestionably would have ended in Horus victory.

Ernestas wrote:
Despite a popular believe, I would argue that those psykers are in fact quite vulnerable to predators of warhammer's universe. Emperor like psykers was shown again and again to be in mortal danger and even killed. One great example is Teturact in soul drinkers novel. He was very much like as arrogant and powerful as emperor was. His undoing was purely from his own arrogance, imagining himself as undefeatable god he had exposed himself and for that, he was quickly killed. Same could have easily happened and to Emperor, there are many predators capable of killing him. Against certain foes, Emperor would not have even a fighting chance. Warhammer is a deadly place where even most powerful beings are prone to worst of fates.

Name those foes that the Emperor would not have a "fighting chance" against.

Also, I would argue that even Magnus the Red was forced to sell his soul during battle of the fang due to his arrogance. The one simply cannot recover instantly from constant beating even if he is as powerful as alpha psyker. Look at the Emperor, if one could recover so easily then certainly, Emperor could not have died after defeating his son. Also I think that Magnus was almost killed by a titan in a novel "Thousands sons". Only support of his entire army and valiant effort of his captain's psychic shields in protecting their primarch are the only things that had saved theirs beloved primarch.

The Emperor was unable to recover because the most powerful conduit for Chaos to ever exist was the one delivering the smackdown.

Saying that Magnus would have been killed by the Titan in A Thousand Sons is speculation that is rendered unlikely considering the things Titans have survived.

Now the Ahriman, my own favorite. In novel "battle of the fang" was mentioned that Ahriman wasn't just a child who was expelled from legion for his incompetence. With him, all of the finest and brightest of Thousands sons have left! They have defied their own primarch and sided with the one, who made so much ''harm'' to their legion. They have chosen an exile rather than to further suffer their incompetent father. That is a very tasty and healthy bit of fluff. Usually, Adeptus Astrates are shown as childrens then it comes to their primarch. They suddenly loose all of their ability to think for themselves and are in childish and religious awe of their father. That rises another question.

Well no, they were forced out. They didn't get a choice.

Is a very powerful psyker as a rule have unnatural charisma? For example, all but most strong-willed fell under Emperor's charms. You can see this in novel ''Mechanicus''. Priests of Mars realised quickly that Emperor is offering them not a choice, but ultimatum: ''Join me or fight me''. Also, they were not blind to Emperor's true plans of eradicating Mechanicus after his great crusade were over. Great schism of mars weren't just a result of Horus Heresy. It was ongoing from the very moment then Treaty of Olympus was signed and ideologic wars were ''fought'' even at the height of Emperor.
Heh, not everyone have balls and will to resits charms of gods and to actively defy them.

This is true, the Emperor's actual charisma was not legitimate.

Then I mention Ahriman, I mean him and his brothers who are few individuals in this universe who are strong enough to truly use chaos as a tool or at least resist a damnation involved in siding with chaos. Remember how Eldar look down on humans for their foolish and reckless submission to it.

Ahriman is Tzeentch's bitch. Any notion that he is different from Magnus in this regard is fanwank. Ahriman, like Magnus was once, is too arrogant to even realize he is but a pawn of the Changer of Ways.

Now the Tigurius. You all know how powerful and useful he is. I really doubt that even the Emperor could match his talents in future telling.

Possibly. Divination does seem to be the Emperor's weak point. But the Emperor vastly eclipses him in every other regard.

And that about Ahriman and his little ''Kill everyone'' rituals? I see him as powerful or even more so than his own father, The Magnus.

Ahriman isn't even remotely in the same league as Magnus is. Ahriman could do nothing to stop the Rubric. Only Magnus could.

Also, I would say that his way of ''more direct implications of sorcery'' makes him the most useful entity in whole warhammer universe. Tell me of wonders that Emperor made on battlefield! He, like a pussy relied entirely on martial might of entire Imperium for his ''Great crusade''.

During the early Great Crusade, the Emperor was always fighting on the frontlines. "Like a pussy" lol, try not to let your bias be so obvious.

Where was his future telling? Where was immense demons spilling out of the warp?

Well, unlike Ahriman, the Emperor was not a slave to Chaos, so he doesn't summon daemons.

When was a last time where he used his own immense personal might appropriately and not for the last minute saving in order to steal all the glory. No, better to treat everyone else like a child, incompetent at everything. This is main undoing of great psykers. Magnus the Red, The Emperor and Teturact, they all payed dearly for their own arrogance and glory-seeking for their own egos sake.

The Emperor used his own immense psychic might to telepathically force the entire Word Bearers Legion to kneel to him, and then telekinetically sent all 100,000+ of them to the ground. He used his own immense personal might well on Gorro, slaying innumerable amounts of Orks personally. But, most notably, after Magnus accidentally blew up the Webway, the Emperor personally went through the Gate, and has been spending months fighting the entire Horde of Chaos in the Immaterium. This is the single greatest feat of battle prowess in the setting that doesn't come from a more legitimate god (The Chaos Gods, Gork and Mork, C'tan, etc.).

Also, the Emperor did not intend to arrogantly withhold all the glory and gak for himself. He actually fully intended to "resign" as Emperor once he felt humanity could lead itself. Malcador, himself a very powerful psyker, by contrast thought that there would never be a point when the Emperor was not leaded.

(It's similar situation and with Adeptus Astrates and Imperial Guard. One will make all the work and in the end will only require a small, but critical boost to destroy theirs opponent. Astrates contribution in w40k massed conflicts usually are small ones compared to guardsmen and yet, they take all responsibility for victories and leave any blame to guardsmen.)

That is at least partially because the Adeptus Astartes does end up providing a very critical strike that manages to decapitate the entire enemy war effort. The Imperial Guard do get the shaft, but don't be one of those edgy coolguys pretending the Astartes are useless.

In the end I would like to add that even his loyal ground commander questioned Magnus wisdom in siege of Fang, saying that more direct means of sorcery's application would have saved Prospero. I was shocked at how easily he had sacrificed his own son at the excuse of fate. I would love to see their reaction if all dirt of Magnus the Red would have been fully revealed. Ah, that a joy would be to see an entire Thousands sons legion abandoning their primarch and placing Ahriman in his place!

Yeah, he should have joined the field of battle from the beginning. His indecision both before and during his battle with Leman Russ cost him dearly.

I was talking about Eldrad actually.

But I agree with your stance concerning the Big E, though I dislike him for being a spineless whimp(someone in his position having second thoughts about killing your traitor son when you're capable of instantly killing him is really inexcusable) rather than a poor leader.

I'm getting the impression that that little piece of fluff will have a different story to it when the Horus Heresy series reaches the battle on the Vengeful Spirit sometime in the next two hundred years. It doesn't make much sense with his character in the books.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm getting the impression that that little piece of fluff will have a different story to it when the Horus Heresy series reaches the battle on the Vengeful Spirit sometime in the next two hundred years. It doesn't make much sense with his character in the books

I know right? I never read any of the novels but I once read on Dakka that he even threatened to grind Sanguinus and his Legion out of existence if they were ever to pose a threat to the Imperium. And this guy goes emo when Horus is about to undo his entire lifework? Makes no sense....

I will answer you little later. Now I want to remind you that warhammer have very little that can be considered as a true fluff. Your impressions are as accurate as is mine's, so it's at a level of speculation to say anything that might have happened or it's. Even if that outcome should be an obvious one. The least we can do is find a trend and use supporting arguments from fluff to make one's impression of warhammer's universe more correct than the other's. Second, I admit that I have big hole where horus heresy fluff should be (horus heresy novels). If you say that the Emperor used his powers wisely and effectively, then I will agree with you. And yes, I have dislike for the Emperor, not bias (I do not play w40k table top and my favorite race is Imperium). I simply hate then primarchs and theirs Emperor is portrayed as a night-unstoppable and unkillable beings. That simply does not make any sense in my mind and in my opinion hurts lore. For example: why Emperor had bothered involving humanity in his crusade if nothing could have killed him and his sons? Just go alone from planet to planet rolf-stomping everybody.

 Popenfresh wrote:
I know right? I never read any of the novels but I once read on Dakka that he even threatened to grind Sanguinus and his Legion out of existence if they were ever to pose a threat to the Imperium. And this guy goes emo when Horus is about to undo his entire lifework? Makes no sense....

Huh, not really sure what you are referring to there. I can think of two instances that might fit, but not entirely.

The first is Sanguinius' efforts to cover up the flaw of the Red Thirst, because he was terrified the Emperor would purge his Legion if the Flaw was brought to light.

The second is a contingent of Space Wolves being sent to secretly monitor the Angel, for the purpose of attempting to assassinate him if he strayed. This was not ordered by the Emperor though, who was busy romping Daemon ass in the broken Webway gate, this was ordered by Malcador and approved by Leman Russ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ernestas wrote:
I will answer you little later. Now I want to remind you that warhammer have very little that can be considered as a true fluff. Your impressions are as accurate as is mine's, so it's at a level of speculation to say anything that might have happened or it's. Even if that outcome should be an obvious one. The least we can do is find a trend and use supporting arguments from fluff to make one's impression of warhammer's universe more correct than the other's. Second, I admit that I have big hole where horus heresy fluff should be (horus heresy novels). If you say that the Emperor used his powers wisely and effectively, then I will agree with you. And yes, I have dislike for the Emperor, not bias (I do not play w40k table top and my favorite race is Imperium). I simply hate then primarchs and theirs Emperor is portrayed as a night-unstoppable and unkillable beings. That simply does not make any sense in my mind and in my opinion hurts lore. For example: why Emperor had bothered involving humanity in his crusade if nothing could have killed him and his sons? Just go alone from planet to planet rolf-stomping everybody.

I tend to think of it like this: In the Immaterium, the Emperor is truly godlike, a pseudo Chaos God. But he can't bring that full psychic might to bear in the Materium, though he is still very powerful.

reaper with no name wrote:
I've seen some sources suggesting that Alpha+ psykers can snap Titans in half. Then again, Tigurius is supposed to be among the strongest psykers in the galaxy simply because he accessed the Hive Mind and lived.

So, exactly how strong are higher level psykers? If they can really do things like level cities, then why aren't Librarians the ones leading space marine chapters?

And what does a Mastery Level X map to, anyway?

Mastery Level isn't really a good comparison, because it has to correlate into the game. And just because Librarian's are powerful doesn't mean they are a) Exceptionally skilled or b) Good leaders.

Name those foes that the Emperor would not have a "fighting chance" against.

''Those'' might be a word which is too strong. Any Black Pariah is hopeless fight for an Emperor or any psyker. Even more, if agony that they cause to them is amplified by their power and psyker's strength then Emperor would go insane before he would kill him. If that is true, then I would even say that simply by being near him would be enough to kill him in most painful way imaginable.
Others who have a real fighting chance (if not one sided rolf-stomp) are strong and experienced pariahs of Culexus Temple. They specialise in taking down psykers who have proven to be no match for them. Also Animus speculum grows stronger and more potent with vicinity of psykers. So, it should super-charge itself with Emperor nearby and...

The Emperor was unable to recover because the most powerful conduit for Chaos to ever exist was the one delivering the smackdown.

Saying that Magnus would have been killed by the Titan in A Thousand Sons is speculation that is rendered unlikely considering the things Titans have survived.

And reducing one to its primal energy state by space wolves honor guard and having a fist fight with Bjorn is somehow less fatal?

I'm sorry, but I do not follow you on second one. My memory on that part is quite limited. That do you meant by: ''things Titans have survived'' and how its allows primarchs just to soak up titan's massive firepower without dieing? If they can do that, then how some mere fist fight with Horus are far deadlier than weapons of mass-destruction wielded by titans?

Well no, they were forced out. They didn't get a choice.

Hmmm, are you sure about this? I seem to remember that only Ahriman was expelled from legion and others decided to follow him leaving mostly second-grade marines in it.

Ahriman is Tzeentch's bitch. Any notion that he is different from Magnus in this regard is fanwank. Ahriman, like Magnus was once, is too arrogant to even realize he is but a pawn of the Changer of Ways.

Well, whole Imperium and everyone in a galaxy is a pawn of Tzeentch then. I have no illusion that Tzeentch and his copies called Lords of Change manipulate everyone in every situation possible to them. But if that's true, then we can conclude that The Great Game is already won by Tzeentch. He and he alone will rule a galaxy as an only god without competition.
Surely, you can see that this simply cannot be true. Tzeentch must be making mistakes and adapting later otherwise Imperium would have fallen already to him. With Lord of Changes is easier, because in fluff they do get beaten and outsmarted. So, if they can be outsmarted and beaten then one can escape their plans and influence meaning that not everyone is pawn of Tzeentch.

You are right, Ahriman is no different than ''others'' (the ones who don't acknowledge gods and goes around without their help). That I meant by excluding Magnus is his very suspicious recovery in his battles on Fenris. Firstly, he soaked a lot of damage by breaking defenders fortifications and as I sayed before, all power is finite. He simply could not have recovered fully from such firepower so quickly. His usage of warp should have exhausted or at least tired him.
Keep in mind that this is also speculation. I don't known if usage of the warp requires any effort for a powerful psyker. I just assume using bits of lore that points out that usage of warp can be deadly in different way. I think it was a short story were an Inquisitor with his personal psyker ''infiltrated' two marines to Nurgle's followers stronghold by simply going through and pretending to be their lords. They managed to create illusion that awed Nurgle's followers and managed to get into their stronghold. Meanwhile psyker was described to be exhausted and near death from usage of her powers. Another example is ''Pawn of Chaos'' where an Inquisitor tried to contact Imperium via his psyker. He had drugged him and asked to send a message through warp storm. Psyker tried to do his best and in fact managed to send a message which sadly was corrupted by warp's interference. Psyker again was described as being near dead. Both examples have shown us that psykers can in fact die from over-use of their talents in other ways than exploding meaning that it must cost them their own life-force in order to draw warp's energies.
So, if Magnus had exhausted some of his energy in breaking space wolves strong point then it must be weakened by numerous wounds that have been made to him. We can see that he was further challenged by ''chief-librarian'', but most important thing is space wolves honor guard who had managed to gain a momentum against him and to inflict some wounds. Further, he was hard countered by dreadnought. Even one such powerful as Magnus have foes who can inflict damage to him if given a chance and cost disproportionate amounts of energy (I also count wounds as energy spent in powerful psykers) to dispatch. I seem to remember that Bjorn had tore Magnus hand at one point and emptied his ammunition on him (I'm not entirely sure, correct me if I'm wrong) and that should at least have been equal to a smack that Emperor have received from Horus.
Later he had been assaulted by Ironhelm and he made him ''howl''. Say whatever you wish, but that's to me an undeniable proof that Magnus was at least wounded quite well at that point. Damn it, he was described as a being of pure energy at the end. It's not just like that pussy called Emperor who decided to die with much of his flesh intact.

So, after all of this, he still didn't just fething died. In my eyes he had soaked more damage than Emperor himself and yet he somehow managed to recover instantly with a hint that he wasn't ''in a fight'' back then. You see, in start of ''Thousands sons'' novel demon had contacted Magnus and offered him power. There was sayed that time passes differently in ''their'' minds and that their communication would be a matter of moments or seconds in real world. Due to that and of weird and suspicious description of Magnus during his fights I would think that he was communicating with someone. More than that, knowing a nature of Tzeentch it might have been his plan to finally subdue Magnus to his will once and for all. It would not be a first time then he was tricked in taking demons aid. Remember how he lacked energy to break through Emperor's wards then he tried to warn him? He had taken energy which was offered to him. That would be an equivalent of that happened to him on Fenris. He might just sold his soul to Tzeeentch for his survival. His arrogance that was described previously: he laughed loudly then his captain cautioned him. His little walk through concentrated Fang's defenders firepower was an arrogant move. He believed himself to be invincible only later to be humbled by gods. Isn't this a better fluff than simple bolter porno and invincible primarchs who can just bitch-slap greater demons with casual ease? I always puzzled why people like beings such as superman or other similar over the top, undying beings.


In the end, I'm aware that this is a heavy speculation and it might not be true, but I'm at least trying to read between lines and to paint universe's picture as accurately as possible. I'm not satisfied with comic-level fiction that warhammer something is. I try to find a consistency in this universe, explain things by its inner logic and to argue with examples and reason. For me, it's far better than to say ''there is no fluff'' then we encounter any serious disagreement and to withdrawn to our own, personal versions of warhammer. In a place there are no undeniable sources which we could follow we must call forth reason and arguments and by them forge the most correct image of this universe.

Possibly. Divination does seem to be the Emperor's weak point. But the Emperor vastly eclipses him in every other regard.

(Assume that Tigurius Imperial forces know nothing about Emperor. He is only a heretic to them)

Most likely. That I meant is if he would fight with him in crusade. His crusade vs Emperor's, both have an equal winning chance (calculating only their armies strength).
That ability to see future combined with great leader and strategist or tactician would be no match for the Emperor and he would certainly loose against him. He will be outmaneuvered and later outnumbered by simple fights that will always be in Tigurius favor. In the end, if Tigurius will not do something crazy, like accepting personal challenges like an ork, then he should simply just kill Emperor in siege or massed firepower on battlefield.
The problem with this is his charm. As any powerful psyker he emits an unnatural charisma that might force his forces to betray him. For that sanctioned psykers should be in great use to counter this power combined with commissars watchful eyes. Priests might also serve very well in keeping their men fates in their leader. With space marines, chaplains should take extra time observing their battle brothers and eradicating any funny thoughts about his greatness. Librarians should also constantly support their brothers spirits with their own power.

Ahriman isn't even remotely in the same league as Magnus is. Ahriman could do nothing to stop the Rubric. Only Magnus could.

To stop rubric? Do you mean a flesh change which only Ahriman had bothered putting some actual effort in stopping it? In same book ''Battle of the Fang'' Magnus had voiced his disagreements on Ahriman's approach to sorcery. As he said, Ahriman was too concerned with spell-weaving while Magnus was often criticised for showing no interest in more direct means of warp's implication. They both have different ideas how warp should be used, but at least Ahriman would not have caused so many Thousands sons casualties and his skills are more useful than his father's are.
Also, tearing a rift wide enough for god to pour into material universe is an achievement foreshadowing even the Emperor. I know, leviathan is not a god, but far lesser beings in w40k are being worshiped as gods

In the end, it boils down to fundamental believes in primarch's and emperor's strengths. I think that they power are finite and they are reasonably vulnerable to warhammer's predators while others want to see them being untouchable and unbeatable. You already know my position and it would be fruitless to discuss if they are invincible or not. For me they will be and it's something that you have to admit it if you want further discuss with me. I mean, we will always come back to same fundamental questions and we will achieve nothing if we can't agree even on basics.

Well, unlike Ahriman, the Emperor was not a slave to Chaos, so he doesn't summon daemons.

Demons can be a tool, nothing more. Just manipulate them, force them to do your bidding and by that, lower you own forces casualties.
In any way, I bringed this example to show that Emperor had lacked some really apocalyptic applications of his powers. Even human psykers used their powers with greater impact than the Emperor did, meaning that here can be others just as powerful as him. Same Teturact for example could convert worlds to his cause by simply infecting them and using fear to his advantage. He later would simply mind control them with viruses, hope, faith, religion and psychic might which is a very efficient way of using your abilities. One does not simply brute force his will with his psychic might, but cleverly manipulates world's rules to his advantage. Either it's spells or human biological flaws in human design, it all might serve to conserve his energies.

Also, the Emperor did not intend to arrogantly withhold all the glory and gak for himself. He actually fully intended to "resign" as Emperor once he felt humanity could lead itself. Malcador, himself a very powerful psyker, by contrast thought that there would never be a point when the Emperor was not leaded.

You still believe him to be incorruptible and perfect even then I had pointed out many of his mistakes? Much could change and he might become obssesed with power and superiority complex believing that humanity is far from prepared to rule themselves. He might never had stopped holding humanity's hand, forbiding religion and hiding chaos presence wrongly believing that Imperium of man are unprepared to deal with the truth and arrogantly saying that is right and that's wrong for humanity.

That is at least partially because the Adeptus Astartes does end up providing a very critical strike that manages to decapitate the entire enemy war effort. The Imperial Guard do get the shaft, but don't be one of those edgy coolguys pretending the Astartes are useless.

No, not at all. They are very useful in certain areas. That I meant by ''massed'' is that Imperial guard sacrifice and job done in war far outweights astrates contribution in huge conflicts. That's more, they should always work with Imperial guard, because sending astrates alone to at least planet wide conflict is a waste of marines. It's an inefficient way to spend them. Garrison duties are far better performed by guardsmen. Same goes with firefights. Astrates should never go where ''big boys are playing''. It's because all their natural advantages have little impact there and on open battlefield with massed firepower of Imperial guard are far more efficient than Astrates one. Space marines should concentrate their efforts rather on taking out critical enemy emplacements, securing critical locations, countering foes with whom Imperial guard do not have resources to fight or are unfitted for, performing lighting-fast raids, boarding actions and etc. These things is where astrates shines and it should be there they should stay. Open battlefields and naval battles simply are too expensive for chapters to bear with little actual benefit gained if we would compare that with efficiency with which Imperial guard and Imperial Navy can do same things.


The only thing that I do not like is arrogance from space marines perspective. They arrive late, coordinate their actions poorly and help guardsmens a little. And for that, they take responsibility for victory and blame anything wrong on guardsmens then it's they who should have supported them far before situation have become critical for Imperial guard. Yes, I know that this is often not true, but it happens often enough for me to have distaste for them.

You'd have thought that if Chaos had a psyker capable of destroying planets they'd have won by now. Certainly the Imperium have no one of that level capable of matching them, that guy could just blow his way to terra.

Getting back to the topic of the OP, a good example of alpha level psyker powers is portrayed in the Eisenhorn novel when Ravenor was almost killed at the big parade and a contingent of alpha level enemy psykers broke free.

Ernestas wrote:

Well, whole Imperium and everyone in a galaxy is a pawn of Tzeentch then. I have no illusion that Tzeentch and his copies called Lords of Change manipulate everyone in every situation possible to them. But if that's true, then we can conclude that The Great Game is already won by Tzeentch. He and he alone will rule a galaxy as an only god without competition.
Surely, you can see that this simply cannot be true. Tzeentch must be making mistakes and adapting later otherwise Imperium would have fallen already to him.

Taking down the IOM is not Tzeentch's plan. If he/she/it were to do that there would be far less plotting for Tzeentch to feed from.
Tzeentch will never allow himself to "Win" because that would be the death of him: No plots/plans/stories = No Tzeentch.

He needs the competition to survive.