Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello Dakka, I have an idea for a fluff justification for using different chapter tactics from game to game within a narrative campaign, and I wonder if you can tell me whether or not this explanation holds water with the fluff. I have only the current SM codex to refer to, and not a wealth of information from reading many books over a number of years, hence this thread!

In short, my rationale is that the chapter has adopted a philosophy that tactics are best applied situationally, and so it has assigned each of its battle companies a different set of tactics. 2nd company follows Iron Hands, 3rd company follows Imperial Fists, 4th company follows White Scars, 5th company follows Raven Guard. Marines are assigned to battle companies for life as scouts, and so each battle company has their own supply of recruits from 10th company. Similarly, marines that graduate to 1st company are still chiefly deployed with their assigned battle company, and so each battle company has their own supply of veterans from 1st company. Reserve companies aren't fielded so it doesn't matter that they are technically mixed. Maintaining coherence with the rule of 10s (each squad is 10, each company is 10, there are 10 companies) means that each battle company won't have equal representation in non-battle companies, but I'm not aware that any such symmetry is needed beyond the 10s.

On the table, depending on which tactics I want to use that day, that's which company I field. If I want to use 2 different set of tactics, I have to field 2 companies, but because their training is so different, each battle company needs to be lead independently in the field. In game terms this equates to the codex rule that allows 2 detachments with different tactics to be fielded using allies rules, counting as battle brothers. I know that I can do this already with the allowance to paint detachments any way you want, and the already-provided justification in the codex for members of different chapters wearing the same colors when they are on a campaign together, but I want it to be 1 chapter while not being un-fluffy.

Does this idea fit with the fluff of the 41st millennium? Thanks for your opinions!

That fits perfectly afaik.

As long as all applicable rules are followed (I don't want no Iron Hands Lysander!), I cannot see how anyone would have a problem.


Wait.
...Just thought...

How do you differentiate between companies?

So your entire chapter hangs around chilling out while a handful of squads from each company do some fighting just in case you want to use some slightly different tactics?

It might be ok to field armies made from two differnt companies using different chaptet tactics (from a fluff point of view different companies could have different focuses but eh... sounds more like you just want to playthe rules) but i would not be particularly pleased if you kept swapping chapter tactics in every game of a campaign based on what you expect to fight...

Personally, I'd find it a bit weird, as a Chapter's Tactics tend to reflect its culture. If you have so many units following different ways to fight, it looks a bit like a cultural melting pot without a proper identity of its own ...

... that being said, your fluff does at least avoid the issue of Marines in Codex Chapters often transferring through the Companies by number, instead enjoying a permanent assignment...

Still, have you perhaps considered an alternate approach, such as a Chapter whose identity revolves around testing and using other Imperial forces' tactics? I am talking, of course, of the Mentor Legion, as I think they're a cool idea and your idea could fit with them.

Ultimately, however, you need not worry - take the comments you'll receive here (including mine) as opinions and suggestions rather than advice (small but important difference), for fluff in 40k is not consistent at all and heavily dependent on interpretation as well as preferred sources, so in the end it all comes down to you.

 Lynata wrote:
I am talking, of course, of the Mentor Legion, as I think they're a cool idea and your idea could fit with them.

Ninja'd but this would have been the point I would have made myself and I completely agree with Lynata on this. The regular Chapter you have created could follow just one set of Chapter Tactics, Imperial Fists say, with squads of Mentor Legion as allied using whichever Chapter Tactics seem more useful in any given situation. Of course, in newer publication 'the Mentors' are supposed to shy away from dealing with other organisations but that is utterly rediculous.

I do not think these are things they can do on purpose. The chapters behave the ways they do for hard-won reasons. In the cultural sense, they have been doing things a given way for 9,000 years. In a biological sense, they have a set of foreign DNA grafted into their bodies.

If it takes all that investment just to get bolter drill, it is unlikely a company of marines could get it just by deciding to try it out. By example, the Imperial Fists could decide to set up a special company modeled on the White Scars, but they would never have the White Scars' rules. It is the way every chapter has a heroic first company captain, but only one or two of those out of a thousand chapters are as good as Lysander. Cross reference the six chapters in the Codex who do not have Lysander.

One way to look at it is if all the companies were self-sufficient and were all on crusades spread out through-out part of the galaxy then eventually they would begin to differ from one another due to their seclusion from other members of their chapter.

rtunian wrote:

In short, my rationale is that the chapter has adopted a philosophy that tactics are best applied situationally,!

I think that this alone would be completely fine. I'd rather that than they actually imitate/emulate the tactics of other Chapters; instead, they are a flexible fighting force capable and willing to alter their tactics to fit the situation at hand (in short, act like an intelligent military). It's essentially the same idea as the Ultramarine Combat Doctrines. Of course, the Codex does state that you "must" use the Chapter Tactics of the First Founding from which your Chapter originates, but I don't think anyone would really enforce that. Even the rulebook/fluff itself doesn't; look at the Black Templars, and how completely different they are to the Imperial Fists. So if you had a Raven Guard descendant who love bikes, it would be totally fine to use the White Scars' Chapter Tactics.

I think the best fit for a First Founding of your Chapter would be Ultramarines (they like to point out how flexible their strategies are) or Raven Guard (one of the few to use actual intelligent tactics like a real military). But really, go with whatever is your favourite.

Thanks, all!

pelicaniforce wrote:
I do not think these are things they can do on purpose. The chapters behave the ways they do for hard-won reasons. In the cultural sense, they have been doing things a given way for 9,000 years. In a biological sense, they have a set of foreign DNA grafted into their bodies.

Interesting, I didn't think of it that way. Perhaps the chapter was a dark founding mishap, where geneseeds from the four relevant primarchs formed a mixed legion by mistake. The chapter's early centuries were marred by internal conflict, the brothers not fully understanding why they weren't working well together. Ultimately using a plot device, they learn that their founding was a mixed bag. That they collectively descended from four primarchs, combined with there being prescribed four battle companies in the codex, seemed as providence to them. They re-organized the chapter and learned to work together as battle brothers. In this case, battle company assignment would be hereditary.

rtunian wrote:
Thanks, all!

pelicaniforce wrote:
I do not think these are things they can do on purpose. The chapters behave the ways they do for hard-won reasons. In the cultural sense, they have been doing things a given way for 9,000 years. In a biological sense, they have a set of foreign DNA grafted into their bodies.

Interesting, I didn't think of it that way. Perhaps the chapter was a dark founding mishap, where geneseeds from the four relevant primarchs formed a mixed legion by mistake. The chapter's early centuries were marred by internal conflict, the brothers not fully understanding why they weren't working well together. Ultimately using a plot device, they learn that their founding was a mixed bag. That they collectively descended from four primarchs, combined with there being prescribed four battle companies in the codex, seemed as providence to them. They re-organized the chapter and learned to work together as battle brothers. In this case, battle company assignment would be hereditary.

Makes sense to me.

If I may ... (though feel free to ignore this, just like you may ignore almost anything in the fluff)

The Geneseed for the Founding of a new Chapter comes from the Adeptus Mechanicus, which collects it as a tithe from existing Chapters as both a means to check for genetic mutation as well as to store it for creating new Chapters. It seems like a really weird thing if somehow the AdMech ends up creating a Chapter using four different donors, so to say. If you really want to go this route, I'd recommend at least making it an intentional experiment rather than a mishap?

Alternatively, you could swap this idea for these Marines not being a normal "Chapter" anyways, but rather a product of some sort of alliance between different Chapters that ended up donating troops to some sort of coalition task force entrusted with a specific long-term mission. Basically, that these Marines did not have an official Founding at all but are the descendants of a mixed strike force (like the so-called Astartes Praeses from the Cadian Gate) that for some reason became permanent and developed its own identity, successfully petitioning the High Lords to be granted their own heraldry. They would not bother with recruiting at all, but instead continue to receive a regular influx of Marines from the Chapters that contribute to this alliance. Since this force does not fight very often (their main purpose might be guarding or searching for something?), they do not have many casualties and thus are not a critical drain on the other Chapters' resources.
In short: make it a sort of "Pseudo-Deathwatch", but with full-scale companies that still follow the tactical doctrines from the Chapter that donated them. And much like the DW, you might let them keep their original Chapter's shoulder pauldrin, but adapting the rest of their heraldry to "coalition colours". It probably also wouldn't have a "Chapter Master", but you could proxy one for a rank/station more in line with this task force idea...
If you want, you could even build a connection to the Inquisition, perhaps making it the Chamber Militant of one of the lesser-known Ordos? Lots of potential here.

Just an idea off the top of my head, tho.

 Lynata wrote:
If I may ... (though feel free to ignore this, just like you may ignore almost anything in the fluff)

The Geneseed for the Founding of a new Chapter comes from the Adeptus Mechanicus, which collects it as a tithe from existing Chapters as both a means to check for genetic mutation as well as to store it for creating new Chapters. It seems like a really weird thing if somehow the AdMech ends up creating a Chapter using four different donors, so to say. If you really want to go this route, I'd recommend at least making it an intentional experiment rather than a mishap?

Could have arisen from heresy in the Admech, or a daemon in the machine (iirc, such an occurence was the plotline for a GK novel).