Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Opinions on this list welcome =]

Keep in mind I'm trying to be well rounded and limiting on the cheese factor!

HQ 250pts
Daemon Prince w/Burning Brand, Power Armor, Mark of Tzeentch, and Wings

Troop 267pts x3
Chaos Space Marines w/ Melta, Las Cannon, Icon of Vengence
Champs with Combi-Meltas+Power Fists
Rhinos w/ Havoc Launchers

Fast Attack 170pts x2
Heldrakes w/ Baleflamer

Heavy Support
Chaos Predator w/ Twin-Linked Las, Las Sponsons, Havoc Launcher, Possessed 167pts
Chaos Predator w/ Twin-Linked Las, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Havoc Launcher, Possessed 147pts
Havocs w/ Autocannons x4
Champ w/ Icon of Vengence 140pts

5pts to spare!

Pros:
5x Las
4x Autocannon
5x Havoc Launchers
Ap 2 in units
Mobility
Air AP3

Cons:
No Deepstrike
No 2+ Armor
Not very melee capable

Strategy involves rhino screens/gunlines with a very shooty early game targeting anti air/troop transports, transitioning towards objective capture when air support weakens ground units.

I think the black mace would be better on the daemon prince. The brand is really only a good item to put on cheap lords, as it gives them the power of a heldrake, but at only 100 points instead of 170. If you put it on a 250 point FMC that is going to use it once, go into CC, and then die...its not so worth it.

Your troops are unusual, but seem ok.

your predators should not take possession. BS3 is not worth what it gains...they should not be getting fired upon enough for this to be worth it. Really only vindicators are worth taking this upgrade on.

If you're going to do a gunline CSM list you really need some oblits and an ADL

Why would this be cheesy? This isn't an OP list at all

 changerofways wrote:
I think the black mace would be better on the daemon prince. The brand is really only a good item to put on cheap lords, as it gives them the power of a heldrake, but at only 100 points instead of 170. If you put it on a 250 point FMC that is going to use it once, go into CC, and then die...its not so worth it.

Your troops are unusual, but seem ok.

your predators should not take possession. BS3 is not worth what it gains...they should not be getting fired upon enough for this to be worth it. Really only vindicators are worth taking this upgrade on.

If you're going to do a gunline CSM list you really need some oblits and an ADL

Why would this be cheesy? This isn't an OP list at all

Good advice on Black Mace I was considering it and it is VERY VERY good but I never want to put the Demon into CC and risk the Slay the Warlord point, Between tripple vector strikes and baleflame most scoring units/armor should be destroyed (at least in my experience)

NOTE: I play against MEQ armies that tend to prefer CC I should have probably specified that, leaving them initially immobile and killing them from the air usually sets me up for an easy win.

I took a synergistic approach to this list trying to make sure redundancy was in multiple units and that they would work well cohesively in a opening fire > airsuppport > zerg.

As far as oblits go I would like to take them but the points cost for 2 vs points for havocs deploying in cover is something I couldnt get past while keeping all other units mobile and hard hitting.

You gave me something to think about with the posessed preds , I may end up taking that off and giving the Demon Prince Black Mace, I just thought the trade off of having preds that ignore shaken/stunned on a 2+ was worth the trade, Twinlinked 4+ hitting las aint all that bad imo

I would drop posession and put warpflame gargoyles on your predators. Swap bolter sponsons for lascannon. They should be hiding as far away from hurt as possible.

I would probably not use heldrakes in any list that was supposed to be balanced.

Iron General wrote:
Opinions on this list welcome =]

Keep in mind I'm trying to be well rounded and limiting on the cheese factor!

HQ 250pts
Daemon Prince w/Burning Brand, Power Armor, Mark of Tzeentch, and Wings

Troop 267pts x3
Chaos Space Marines w/ Melta, Las Cannon, Icon of Vengence
Champs with Combi-Meltas+Power Fists
Rhinos w/ Havoc Launchers

Fast Attack 170pts x2
Heldrakes w/ Baleflamer

Heavy Support
Chaos Predator w/ Twin-Linked Las, Las Sponsons, Havoc Launcher, Possessed 167pts
Chaos Predator w/ Twin-Linked Las, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Havoc Launcher, Possessed 147pts
Havocs w/ Autocannons x4
Champ w/ Icon of Vengence 140pts

5pts to spare!

Pros:
5x Las
4x Autocannon
5x Havoc Launchers
Ap 2 in units
Mobility
Air AP3

Cons:
No Deepstrike
No 2+ Armor
Not very melee capable

Strategy involves rhino screens/gunlines with a very shooty early game targeting anti air/troop transports, transitioning towards objective capture when air support weakens ground units.

Looks like a well-rounded list. I do have a few comments, and may be able to free up some points for you.

Havocs: Icon of Vengance is useful for being sure that they will not run off the board (as long as champ remains alive!), but is very expensive. Maybe consider Veterans of the Long War instead? It will save you 20 points that could be deployed elsewhere, and buffs your Ld to 10 (9 if champ dies), which is pretty darn good.

Laspreds: I love these, and have two myself. I think that the Havoc launcher is a waste, though. The Havoc is a Str5 AP5 TL weapon, and is much better as anti-personnel. It will not harm most vehicles and isn't terribly useful against MCs, either. Since the Laspred is a anti-vehicle / anti-MC specialist, the points may be better spent elsewhere. If you want it on there for one more weapon (in case of weapon destroyed penetration rolls), the combi-bolter is much cheaper. But, I would leave that off myself, and save the points.

Rhinos: Havoc launchers make much more sense on these, but given that Rhinos tend to die quickly, these may be wasted as well. If you are going to put a squad in a Rhino and hang in the backfield for a late-game objective sprint, then the Havoc launcher is a good idea. It can provide long-range anti-personnel fire, and your lascannon CSM can fire from one of the access points as well. If, however, you are planning to push forward with the rhinos, then I would leave the launchers off - at least for the rhinos that are going to move on turn 1.

Potential total point savings from above changes: 80 (assuming all havocs get dropped).

I completely agree with the other poster about demonic possession on the laspreds. You need these guys to hit hard, and hit often. BS3 hurts you. AV13 and 3 hull points should keep them in the game for a few rounds, and you will probably not be moving them around a lot once you find a good cover position (deployement, hopefully). So demonic possession is a large point spend against a low-probability outcome should you suffer a penetrating hit. That frees up another 30 points, bringing you up to 110, plus the 5 your had to spare to begin with.

You are now flirting with being able to afford a three man termicide unit or a 5 may raptor squad, both of whom could be a deepstrike threat. Or, maybe a cheap lord, sorcerer, or dark apostle as a 2nd HQ unit.

Last thought would be to delete a power fist or two from your CSM champions to free up more points for a very effective termicide squad. 115 plus another 25 or 50 gives you a very capable deepstrike squad that could combi-melta their way through enemy armor and may survive to get into CC in their backfield.

Good luck,
-Aeglos

aeglos wrote:

Iron General wrote:
Opinions on this list welcome =]

Keep in mind I'm trying to be well rounded and limiting on the cheese factor!

HQ 250pts
Daemon Prince w/Burning Brand, Power Armor, Mark of Tzeentch, and Wings

Troop 267pts x3
Chaos Space Marines w/ Melta, Las Cannon, Icon of Vengence
Champs with Combi-Meltas+Power Fists
Rhinos w/ Havoc Launchers

Fast Attack 170pts x2
Heldrakes w/ Baleflamer

Heavy Support
Chaos Predator w/ Twin-Linked Las, Las Sponsons, Havoc Launcher, Possessed 167pts
Chaos Predator w/ Twin-Linked Las, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Havoc Launcher, Possessed 147pts
Havocs w/ Autocannons x4
Champ w/ Icon of Vengence 140pts

5pts to spare!

Pros:
5x Las
4x Autocannon
5x Havoc Launchers
Ap 2 in units
Mobility
Air AP3

Cons:
No Deepstrike
No 2+ Armor
Not very melee capable

Strategy involves rhino screens/gunlines with a very shooty early game targeting anti air/troop transports, transitioning towards objective capture when air support weakens ground units.

Looks like a well-rounded list. I do have a few comments, and may be able to free up some points for you.

Havocs: Icon of Vengance is useful for being sure that they will not run off the board (as long as champ remains alive!), but is very expensive. Maybe consider Veterans of the Long War instead? It will save you 20 points that could be deployed elsewhere, and buffs your Ld to 10 (9 if champ dies), which is pretty darn good.

Laspreds: I love these, and have two myself. I think that the Havoc launcher is a waste, though. The Havoc is a Str5 AP5 TL weapon, and is much better as anti-personnel. It will not harm most vehicles and isn't terribly useful against MCs, either. Since the Laspred is a anti-vehicle / anti-MC specialist, the points may be better spent elsewhere. If you want it on there for one more weapon (in case of weapon destroyed penetration rolls), the combi-bolter is much cheaper. But, I would leave that off myself, and save the points.

Rhinos: Havoc launchers make much more sense on these, but given that Rhinos tend to die quickly, these may be wasted as well. If you are going to put a squad in a Rhino and hang in the backfield for a late-game objective sprint, then the Havoc launcher is a good idea. It can provide long-range anti-personnel fire, and your lascannon CSM can fire from one of the access points as well. If, however, you are planning to push forward with the rhinos, then I would leave the launchers off - at least for the rhinos that are going to move on turn 1.

Potential total point savings from above changes: 80 (assuming all havocs get dropped).

I completely agree with the other poster about demonic possession on the laspreds. You need these guys to hit hard, and hit often. BS3 hurts you. AV13 and 3 hull points should keep them in the game for a few rounds, and you will probably not be moving them around a lot once you find a good cover position (deployement, hopefully). So demonic possession is a large point spend against a low-probability outcome should you suffer a penetrating hit. That frees up another 30 points, bringing you up to 110, plus the 5 your had to spare to begin with.

You are now flirting with being able to afford a three man termicide unit or a 5 may raptor squad, both of whom could be a deepstrike threat. Or, maybe a cheap lord, sorcerer, or dark apostle as a 2nd HQ unit.

Last thought would be to delete a power fist or two from your CSM champions to free up more points for a very effective termicide squad. 115 plus another 25 or 50 gives you a very capable deepstrike squad that could combi-melta their way through enemy armor and may survive to get into CC in their backfield.

Good luck,
-Aeglos

Dakkadakka delivers once again! Ty Aeglos very insightful and alot to think about! Freeing up those points may have me opt for Black Mace or something mentioned above!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iron General wrote:
Opinions on this list welcome =]

Keep in mind I'm trying to be well rounded and limiting on the cheese factor!

HQ 250pts
Daemon Prince w/Burning Brand, Power Armor, Mark of Tzeentch, and Wings

Troop 267pts x3
Chaos Space Marines w/ Melta, Las Cannon, Icon of Vengence
Champs with Combi-Meltas+Power Fists
Rhinos w/ Havoc Launchers

Fast Attack 170pts x2
Heldrakes w/ Baleflamer

Heavy Support
Chaos Predator w/ Twin-Linked Las, Las Sponsons, Havoc Launcher, Possessed 167pts
Chaos Predator w/ Twin-Linked Las, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Havoc Launcher, Possessed 147pts
Havocs w/ Autocannons x4
Champ w/ Icon of Vengence 140pts

5pts to spare!

Pros:
5x Las
4x Autocannon
5x Havoc Launchers
Ap 2 in units
Mobility
Air AP3

Cons:
No Deepstrike
No 2+ Armor
Not very melee capable

Strategy involves rhino screens/gunlines with a very shooty early game targeting anti air/troop transports, transitioning towards objective capture when air support weakens ground units.

List Post Changes

HQ
315pts
Daemon Prince w/ Black Mace, Mark of Tzeentch, lvl 2 Biomancy Psyker, Wings and Power Armor

Troops
267pts x3
Chaos Space Marines w/ Melta, Las Cannon, Icon of Vengence
Champs with Combi-Meltas + Power Axes
Rhinos w/ Havoc Launchers

Fast
170pts x2
Heldrakes w/Baleflamer

Heavy Support
125pts
Predator w/ Twin-Linked Las, Heavy Bolters, Warp Flame Gargoyles
145pts
Predator w/ Twin-Linked Las, Las Sponsons, Warp Flame Gargoyles
120pts
Havocs w/ 4x Autocannons, Vets of Long War

Good luck with your revised list. Let us know how it goes.

-Aeglos

Considering Changing HQ to DP w/ Burning Brand, Nurgle Mark, lvl 3 psyker and casting from cover w/ Shrouded

Area Terrain cover saves and Nurgle seem very difficult to deal with

Iron General wrote:
Considering Changing HQ to DP w/ Burning Brand, Nurgle Mark, lvl 3 psyker and casting from cover w/ Shrouded

Area Terrain cover saves and Nurgle seem very difficult to deal with

I've not tried that with the burning brand, but it does sound like it could be very effective if you can manage the cover and stay in range of the torrent weapon. There are quite a few "ignores cover" weapons out there, but he's pretty tough to kill.

You need to take at least 2 abilities from the nurgle list, though, since at least half must be from the "marked" list. They aren't the most effective ones in the book and two of them are 12" or less range. The torrent weapon has 12" range + template length.

I'd choose Biomancy for the last power, hope for Iron Arm or Endurance as a buff.

I think it could be a good combo.

-Aeglos

aeglos wrote:

Iron General wrote:
Considering Changing HQ to DP w/ Burning Brand, Nurgle Mark, lvl 3 psyker and casting from cover w/ Shrouded

Area Terrain cover saves and Nurgle seem very difficult to deal with

I've not tried that with the burning brand, but it does sound like it could be very effective if you can manage the cover and stay in range of the torrent weapon. There are quite a few "ignores cover" weapons out there, but he's pretty tough to kill.

You need to take at least 2 abilities from the nurgle list, though, since at least half must be from the "marked" list. They aren't the most effective ones in the book and two of them are 12" or less range. The torrent weapon has 12" range + template length.

I'd choose Biomancy for the last power, hope for Iron Arm or Endurance as a buff.

I think it could be a good combo.

-Aeglos

You only have to choose one from the marked list and can choose the other spells from other disciplines CSM Page 33 Thankfully

Played the list with both the Nurgle and Tzeentch DP's against a Space Wolves/Dark Angels Combo, The Tzeentch DP did astoundingly well he took the Tzeentch Primaris power and rolled Warp Speed and Enfeeble on Biomancy.... the enfeeble reducing the toughness of the marines he was eating combo'd well with the Black Mace procs on a charge he has +D3 attacks and init from warpspeed and an additional D6 attacks from daemon weapon rolls, I was pulling 13 attacks on a charge at str 7 ap 2... really didnt need much of the army... The two heldrakes made things even easier and enemy anti air was eliminated within the first 2 turns...

The Nurgle DP isn't as good in my opinion at all played against the same combo above, was interesting to use but required more luck/strat and I wasn't really as tempted to bring him into CC.

Tzeentch DP kitted def the way to go!

Also the list retained good sustained fire power with each squad having a las cannon on top of the preds.

I think you overupgraded your troop choices a bit. You are either going to waste the lascannon or the meltas as they have very different ranges. Do you really need the fearlessness that bad?

I'm also not convinced you can give an Icon to your champion as he is a character and has a separate upgrade/wargear mention. Same as. he cannot take the heavy weapon, or a NM champion cannot take a Sonic blaster. The Champion gets to buy wargear from the Wargear section at point costs listed there.

 westiebestie wrote:
I think you overupgraded your troop choices a bit. You are either going to waste the lascannon or the meltas as they have very different ranges. Do you really need the fearlessness that bad?

I'm also not convinced you can give an Icon to your champion as he is a character and has a separate upgrade/wargear mention. Same as. he cannot take the heavy weapon, or a NM champion cannot take a Sonic blaster. The Champion gets to buy wargear from the Wargear section at point costs listed there.

The idea is versatility, having 2 meltas and a las gives me long range poke and the ability to use all three if im dug in and have enemies setting up a charge, and yes fearless is very important only having 3 troop choices; so far this list has done very very well - Iron General

*For clarification the champ does not have the banner in each group

The second Laspred may as well swap his Heavy Bolters for more Lascannons. No use diversifying the weapons when it has a dedicated AT role.

In the same way, the Warpflame Gargoyles won't be very useful as the vast majority of the time its STR will not be high enough to damage its target, vehicles.

If the second Pred is intended to be anti-infantry, just leave it stock with HB Sponsors and take Warpflame on it (as the Soul Blaze can actually damage infantry)

 Sparkadia wrote:
The second Laspred may as well swap his Heavy Bolters for more Lascannons. No use diversifying the weapons when it has a dedicated AT role.

In the same way, the Warpflame Gargoyles won't be very useful as the vast majority of the time its STR will not be high enough to damage its target, vehicles.

If the second Pred is intended to be anti-infantry, just leave it stock with HB Sponsors and take Warpflame on it (as the Soul Blaze can actually damage infantry)

Good eye Sparkadia, I ended up taking warpflame gargoyles on the laspred with las sponsons because I had 5 pts and just wanted some list consistency, Not sure how to tweak it but I see your point total comes to 1846 as it sits currently.