Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With all the ranged D weapons now, it is very clear that Daemon Lords and other Gargantuans are pretty much out of the game now. So a slight nerfing to D rules I would say is in order, as it's very easy to ground, for instance, Angraath, then blast him away in turn 1 (Eldar w 6 Wave Serpents and a Revenant did it easily, sad panda!).

But to be fair, I think all Gargantuan Creatures should at least be able to Smash attack at Strength D. Then if they actually got into combat, it would make sense, halve the attacks and get the D bonus. I mean, how the heck does that puny ass Knight (YES, it's puny!) have a Str D sword and Angraath just has Str 10? Makes no sense at all. Yeah, they can get a lucky stomp, but so what, that's at I1. Angraath or big Birdo or Zarakynel or a gigantic Squiggoth should definitely be able to rip apart a Reaver or Aquila Strongpoint if they get in base to base.

What say y'all?

Or should we just put D back to the old rules, and maybe say they reroll successful invuls or something?

Any Gargantuan Creature with at least some kind of melee weapon (Including tyranid talons) should be D in melee.

That a Knight is and a Heirophant isn't is awful.

I agree with BrotherHaraldus.

Anything classed as a gargantuan creature is going to tear things apart pretty easily.
So if something as small as a fex can do S9, then they need atleast a SD smash or D on every CC attack.

Even the Heirodule, a rather small GC, looks like it'd nom any tank in seconds.

It would also give it an edge over the otherwise ridiculously superior Wraithknight (Similar statline, Jump, AND ranged weapons for half the price...)

D weapons need to be nerfed back to their old power level. Instant-wound no-cover auto-pen +1 on the damage chart Instant Death was plenty strong. It also made the distinction for Void Grenades and Vortex Missiles something to actually care about.

The D-weapon change seems to be there to screw over invulnerable save reliant death stars.

To keep these deathstars down, I instead suggest a few changes in addition to the GC's getting D-strength hits in assault thing.

Firstly, Eldar-Titan holo-fields give them a save that specifically functions against D-strength hits. I was thinking that it was hardly fair that the Eldar got this and nobody else did. Secondly, lots of the bigger superheavy vehicles have well over 10 HP, while to my knowledge, not one GC has more than ten wounds. This should be fixed on a case by case basis.

Addittionally, the Statlines of quite a lot of GCs just flat out suck. A melee heirodule will reliably be defeated by an Iron hands/Clan biker chapter master with a shield and thunder hammer. With the loss of rerolling hits from scything talons, said Melee heirodule fares even worse than it did before against said Chapter master.

This is...absolutely ridiculous.

Aetaos'Rau'Keres, the most powerful of the lords of change, the most powerful master of the warp in service to the god who specializes in magic...has incredibly underwhelming psychic shooting attacks and will lose to an uber-prince (Daemon of tzeentch, forewarning, endurance, iron arm, warp speed+greater etherblade/eternal blade) in a slugging match (he shouldn't feel too bad, An'ggrath and Scabeiathrax also lose to said Prince, though as Zarakynel ignores Invulnerable saves, she butchers the Prince)

Tyranid Bio-titan guns also need a boost. There's no excuse for these guns bouncing off of meganobz and riptides.

I'll compile a more complete list of revisions I've made soon but there's the stuff I remember from my homebrew off the top of my head.

I'd love to see that Smash rule change to allow Destroyer attacks from GCs. It makes so much sense as most of them are S10 already.

Tyranid GCs are also horribly overcosted for what they do. Hierodules are essentially a Wraithknight with worse weapons for more than double the points, and rarely last a turn on an Apoc battlefield. Rather than adjust points, I think these changes would be fair:

Bio-Cannon
Change to dual-profile:
Range 48" S10 AP3 Assault 12
Range 24" S10 AP1 Assault 4

Scythed Hierodule
Add Adrenal Glands and Spine Banks biomorphs
Add +1W, +1I, +1Sv
May take Regenerate biomorph for +40pts

Barbed Hierodule
Amend weapon to:
One twin-linked Bio-Cannon
Add +1W, +1I, +1Sv
May take Regenerate biomorph for +40pts

Harridan
Amend weapon to:
One twin-linked Bio-Cannon
Born in the Skies: May re-roll grounding test results of 1.
May take Regenerate biomorph for +60pts

Hierophant
Add Fleet rule
Add Spine Banks biomorph from codex
Amend weapon to:
One twin-linked Bio-Cannon
Bio-titan Warp Field: Amend as follows:
For each successful hit with a shooting attack on the Hierophant, roll a D6. On a roll of 5+, the weapon strength is reduced by 1 point. Destroyer weapons successfully reduced this way are treated as a S10 AP2 attack, and must roll to wound as normal. This ability has no effect in melee, or against attacks that do not use a Strength value.

I like it.

But isn't the first profile of the Bio-cannon massively better than the second? Against lesser targets it is obviously better, but even against AV14 SHVs it causes more HP damage on average.

Good against 2+ save models I suppose, but that is pretty much it.