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I think I may have found something that allows Powerfists to strike first.

According to the CSM codex, the Slaneeshi weapon Doom Siren allows the model to strike first regardless of cover or weapons (paraphrased a little bit, but the important things are down).

According to the BBB, Powerfists always strike at ini 1, regardless of special abilities and etc.

The workaround is that the Doom Siren doesn't change initiative, it just allows the model with the powerfist to strike before everyone else. The ini is stil 1, the model just doesn't use it.

Technically, however, the Power Fist does not say that your Initiative is 1. It tells you to strike at Initiative 1. That phrase directs you to strike at a certain time in the assault phase, and the Siren directs you to strike at a different time in the assault phase. Both say that they disregard the other (Fists disregard wargear/rules/etc, Siren disregards weapons), and both give you contradictory directions as to when to strike, so the rules impasse still exists.

Just checked the errata, and it has three points on the Doom Siren and none of them talk about this. Does anyone know whether the BBB takes precedence or the CSM codex?

Maybe I am reading my Codex completly wrong, but under Doom Sirens it says that models strike in Initiative Sequence. Power Fists are at I 1 so they would go last.

Posted By killerdbz on 04/13/2006 7:52 PM
Maybe I am reading my Codex completly wrong, but under Doom Sirens it says that models strike in Initiative Sequence. Power Fists are at I 1 so they would go last.

Thats how it works alright.

-Legacy40k

Pg. 56 of the Chaos Codex

" In close combat, a model with a doom siren will strike first regardless of cover or weapons as waves of sonic energy buffet and confuse their enemies. If fighting models who also always strike first, then roll a D6 to determine priority."

I don't see anything about initiative sequence in there. I don't know what the priority is with the BBB and the codexes, but right now they just contradict each other and the errata has nothing on it. This argument is purely academic as I play Tau, but I think that you can actually get PF that strike first with it.

Powerfists strike at I 1 regardless of special rules, cover, grenades, wargear, ect.

Doom Siren: Models with it always strike in initiative sequence even if the enemy is in cover.  (Just like plasma grenades)

Since the model is at I1, they strike at I1.  They will attack simultanious to an enemy who is normally I2 however as the warp scream drops them down to 1.

-Legacy40k

Doom Siren: Models with it always strike in initiative sequence even if the enemy is in cover. (Just like plasma grenades)

Not what my codex says. I have the quote just above you which says models with dooms siren always strike first .

You should double check that.  Mine says initiative order, I have the first printing.

Also, even when a unit that should strike first (such as one in cover) has a powerfist, they strike last.  Or with frag grenades.. which make both sides strike at I10,  however, the powerfist will still strike at I1.

"Always strikes first" no longer exists in the most recent version of 40k.  Anything that strikes first, or strikes at the same time strikes at I10.  Powerfists always strike at I1.

-Legacy40k

Just got mine yesterday (as I said, I play tau). Shouldn't have been on the shelf too long either, since the store was sold out on Chaos codexes a month ago.

Pge 46, rule book.
Right column, Power fists:
"A power fist is slow and cumbersome to use, so strikes with a power fist are alwasy delivered at Initiative 1 (Ignore any bonuses for special rules, cover, grenades, or warger, etc.)

I think that's pretty clear. Power fists strike at I1.

Posted By PapaNurgle on 04/13/2006 9:36 PM
Pge 46, rule book.
Right column, Power fists:
"A power fist is slow and cumbersome to use, so strikes with a power fist are alwasy delivered at Initiative 1 (Ignore any bonuses for special rules, cover, grenades, or warger, etc.)

I think that's pretty clear. Power fists strike at I1.


Thats what I thought when I paraphrased it above.

-Legacy40k

Posted By PapaNurgle on 04/13/2006 9:36 PM
Pge 46, rule book.
Right column, Power fists:
"A power fist is slow and cumbersome to use, so strikes with a power fist are alwasy delivered at Initiative 1 (Ignore any bonuses for special rules, cover, grenades, or warger, etc.)

I think that's pretty clear. Power fists strike at I1.


Thats what I thought when I paraphrased it above.

-Legacy40k

Unfortunately, the 3rd Edition of the CSM Codex also makes it pretty clear that models w/ Doom Sirens always strike first. Like Relic said, they are in complete opposition to each other.

P-fists ignore bonuses for special rules or wargear. Doom Sirens strike first regardless of weapon (which really only makes sense for p-fists). Which one takes precedent?

The power fist would still strike at I 1.  The reason why can be found HERE.

I didn't see anything conclusive in that thread. It just ended up with them agreeing that the rules didn't make sense.

Madscientist: 3rd ed chaos codex says it strikes first.

4th ed rulebook makes it pretty plain that no bonuses for special rules, wargear, cover, or etc. I think the Doom Siren would fit under wargear, or etc.

I don't really see much room for arguement here. The Rulebook is clear (for once) and nothing since the rulebook has overridden it.

Posted by Madscientist on 04/14/2006 12:56 AM
I didn't see anything conclusive in that thread.

Except for the little fact that GW says the third printing of the codex has a MISPRINT and it should say that they strike in 'initiative order' and not 'first'.

@Ghaz, Where did you read that GW says it has a misprint? Where was this little nugget published?

Darrian

It was published in the (unofficial?) FAQ which existed for a brief time on the EOT message boards. It has since dissappeared, which is pretty sucky, especially for chaos noobs like me who only very recently purchased the Codex after the FAQ was gone.

I'm sure somebody here can hook you up with it.

Since it no longer exists, it has no place in a RAW argument. HOWEVER, since you now know it existed at one point and contained definitive answers on the subject, it calls sportsmanship into question if you decided to not play by it IMO.

I personally have decided to delay playing (or purchasing) any Chaos stuff until the FAQ is updated, or the 4th edition Codex is completed. Which is too bad, 'cause I had some sweet conversions planned.


The whole thing is screwy, but then again, this is Chaos we are talking about...

? Posts from the Eye of Terror (or any other forum on the Internet, for that matter) are not official. They?re interesting and there?s nothing wrong with following them in common practice, but they are not rules, regardless of the alleged source.

*cough*

Anyway, it isn't even on there anymore, which could mean either it just got lost in the board change, or they decided that the statement they made wasn't true and they retracted it.

As I said, it isn't clear cut.

I'm still of the feeling that powerfists strike at I1 ALWAYS, because thats what the rulebook says clearly, and 2 out fo 3 versions of the chaos codex dont say that you strike first.

That being said.. best way to make everybody happy:  Always Strikes First+Always Strike Last=Strikes in initiative order.  They cancel one another out leaving you with the default of initiative order.

Posted By Legacy40k on 04/14/2006 10:23 AM
I'm still of the feeling that powerfists strike at I1 ALWAYS, because thats what the rulebook says clearly, and 2 out fo 3 versions of the chaos codex dont say that you strike first.

While that's true, it's the newest version, the "3rd Printing", that is causing the problems. Its sucky for people with the older books, but nothing in the first two printings matters anymore.

 

Check your title page. It might be time to upgrade.

All printings are valid, you do not have to upgrade assuming there are no ammendments made that refer back to the first printing.  There is nowhere that it is stated that a doom siren model always goes first in a place people with the first 2 printings (the majority in theory) have access too.

Or in other words.  Unlike many misprints in the first 2 codexs that have had ammendments made outside of a different edition to let those people know.  This "updated" rules of the doom siren have not been announced to people with the first 2 printings, so without an FAQ stating otherwise, the first printings text is valid.

-Legacy40k

How do you figure?

The 3rd Printing is clearly labeled as "3rd Printing". How is that printing not more relevant than the older ones?

Simple reason...  There is nothing that says that when a new printing is released that past printings are now invalid and must be replaced.  They are simply updated with FAQs and external ammendments.

-Legacy40k

heh, looks like it's time to throw my 5 cents of OT-stuff into the discussion :-) You should all note that you are pretty lucky to be american/english 40k players, as it happens to be, the first (!) print of the german codex: CSM, published shortly after the 1st english print, had an exact translation of your 3rd print (!) doom siren rules in it, stating that it'd always strike first. No idea to where they took that translation from. I have no clue wether they changed it in any reprints of the german 'dex, or even if there are such reprints, BUT (watch it children, herew comes the interesting part...)

GW decided to correct the missprint of the first german 'dex, thus published a pdf with rules- and codexerrata. It is still available on the german gw page, in the 'In nomine Imperatoris'-section, called 'Regel-Errata Dec 2005'. and it specifically states in the last section of changes for page 56 german dex Chaos Space marines, that doom siren (Schockbooster in german) allows to strike at initiative order. Period.

Sooo, since the us and uk pages seem to lack a compareable revision stating anything about the doom siren,the german pdf actually wouldn't contradict them. One could thus take the german revision as the actual rules. Of course, this only holds as long as the 3rd english reprint doesn't date back to 2006.
Have a party, grasp yourself a dictionary plus a lawyer and of course, be sure to be prepared for the incoming 'but the english version always overrides changes from files not written in the developers mother-tongue'-arguments.

Hope I've messed up things some more ;-)

Posted By Legacy40k on 04/14/2006 1:17 PM
They are simply updated with FAQs and external ammendments.

If that were true, I would agree with you. However, as shown by the lack of ammendments or FAQs to update older printings after the release of a newer one, this obvoiusly does not happen.

So, according to you, as long as you own multiple printngs of any given codex, you can play with whichever version of the rules you feel like at any particular time, as taken independently any one version is just as valid as any other?

Meaning, when two Chaos players face off (Bob is knowingly playing 1st printing while Frank is knowingly playing 3rd printing), Bob's doom siren equipped models will always strike after Frank's doom siren equipped models? Bob's Defilers will not be able to take any vehicle upgrades, yet Frank's will? Bob's flying glaive prince o' death will be legal, while Frank will not be able to field one?

Interesting...

Well, I have a FAQ and Ammendment that brings the first version up to the 2nd version.. Unfortunatly GW is very slow about updating such things.

Anyways, I know that for the 2 years I played a Slannesh army, Doom Sirens were Initiative order,  I have not come across them since then since then, but since nothing automatically strikes first any more... (They strike at I10 instead, which is not the same) You play it how you like, it doesnt have any effect on me.
 

-Legacy40k

Posted By Legacy40k on 04/14/2006 2:15 PM
but since nothing automatically strikes first any more...

-Legacy40k

Except Doom Sirens in the 3rd printing Chaos Codex, which state that they 'always strike first'.

Seriously, its printed there in black and white.