Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

when you guys get done with this weeks repeat argument
please remeber :doomsiren is not wargear, it is a demonic gift.

@Jeremy, Are you implying that because the Doomsiren is a demonic gift instead of wargear that the powerfists special rules do not apply? What is your reasoning.

Darrian
(Wants the doomfist to work, but just is not sold, yet)

uh... uuuuuuhh.... well, you all know I am kinda slow and all, additionaly suffering from having a german 'dex... if someone doesn't mind, where exactly is the fact that gifts of the gods = daemonic gifts outlined? A page ref really would help, think the german wording may differ a bit. Was this FAQed, or maybe clarified in the reprints?
Thx a bunch + sorry for the off-topic...

Powerfists always strike last. It is right there in black and white.

Ahh, welcome to another episode of the Dakka-go-round...

Anyway, I should point out that I'm arguing only the rules as written, not how I play it, not how I expect any real honest-to-Nurgle human to play it, or whatnot.

Legacy40k: As I've said to others before, vehement argumentation as to why you play a certain way when it has nothing to do with the RAW is irrelevant to the dicussion. You seem to have house rules with regards to versioning and/or Doom Sirens, and that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have any impact on how sirens and fists work together in a RAW perspective.

Fundamanetally, with the current rules universe covering the Chaos codex (the 3rd printing, the 4.0.1 FAQ, and the main rulebook), a model with a Doom Siren and a Power Fist strikes first.

There are two primary reasons for this:

1) The wording in the main book on Power Fists excludes bonuses to initiative, not special rules in general. The Doom Siren provides no bonus to initiative (i.e., it doesn't grant +2I or whatnot), it gives a new rule for swinging that is separate to initiative. To reiterate, the Power Fist fixes initiative, the Doom Siren ignores initiative.

2) The Doom Siren rule is more specific than the Power Fist rule, both by virtue of being an army list rule as opposed to a general rule, and because it specifies "regardless of weapon" when Power Fist is the only weapon rule that modifies initiative available to characters in the Chaos codex -- thus, the Doom Siren specifically references Power Fist, but not vice versa, and as the more specific rule Doom Siren trumps Power Fist.

Now, again, I should point out that this isn't how I play Doom Sirens, but this is -- in the current rules universe -- how they work based on the rules as written.

Thank you Lowinor.

I find your reasoning to be crystal clear and utterly convincing. I also appreciate that while the rules DO support the doomfist, you choose to not use this combination due to sportsmanship concerns. I will follow your example.

I wish we could just lock this thread and save it for the next time some chaos player stumbles onto this combo.

Darrian

What you said about Doom Siren trumping powerfist is an opinion supported by more opinions. That is not RAW.

2) The Doom Siren rule is more specific than the Power Fist rule, both by virtue of being an army list rule as opposed to a general rule, and because it specifies "regardless of weapon" when Power Fist is the only weapon rule that modifies initiative available to characters in the Chaos codex -- thus, the Doom Siren specifically references Power Fist, but not vice versa, and as the more specific rule Doom Siren trumps Power Fist.

Why do you assume that the Doom Siren rule is only referencing any weapon the Champion itself is carrying? When it says 'strikes first, regardless of weapons', that doesn't necessarily mean it is only referring to the weapons the champion is carrying. It could also mean regardless of a weapon the opponent may be carrying that allows a bonus to Initiative or first strike. It could also mean regardless of any weapon that might be introduced in following supplements that has a bonus. Assuming that it references Power Fists specifically grants the wording a false specificity.

A Power Fist tells you when to strike. A Doom Siren also tells you when to strike. Both say that they disregard the other. Assuming that one takes precedence over the other requires an assumption that is not supported by the rules.

@BloodyT, The RAW is very clear unforunately it is also completely contradictary.

Powerfists RAW states "A power fist is slow and cumbersome to use, so strikes with a power fist are always delivered at initiative 1 (ignore any bonuses for special rules, cover, grenades or wargear, etc). BGB pg 46

Doom Siren RAW states "a model with a Doom siren will always strike in initiative sequence even if attacking in cover as the waves of sonic energy confuse and repel them." Chaos codex pg 56 3rd printing

If all you are going to do is look at the RAW, you CANNOT come to a simple logical conclusion since the RAW is contradictary. Lowinor applied logic to the conflict and came up with a reasonable conclusion. You are free to disagree with him but if you do. PLEASE do more than simply restate the RAW. I think we can all agree that there is no conclusive answer if you are only going by the RAW. Maybe you can use GW's simple solution and dice fo rit. I'm going with Lowinors conclusion.

Please feel free to restate the RAW ad infinitum, but it does not solve anything.

Darrian

I think we can all agree that there is no conclusive answer if you are only going by the RAW. Maybe you can use GW's simple solution and dice fo rit. I'm going with Lowinors conclusion.

Does this mean that even though the rules are contradictory, you are taking the interpretation that is more advantageous for you?

@Relic. Since you do not support Lowinors conclusion. What is your conclusion? If I show up to your game with my doomfisting chaos lord at what initiative do I attack in our game?

Please advise.

Darrian

@Relic. Since we have all agreed now that there is no simple answer to be found in the RAW since the 2 rules are completely contradictary, we have to find some other way to answer this question if some player shows up with a doomfist combo. I believe Lowinor came up with a very reasonable solution. I also will not use a doomfist combo, and I do play Chaos primarily, so I am not using the interpretation that is most beneficial to me. Please read my prior posts before accusing me of such.

Darrian

@Relic. Since we have all agreed now that there is no simple answer to be found in the RAW since the 2 rules are completely contradictary, we have to find some other way to answer this question if some player shows up with a doomfist combo. I believe Lowinor came up with a very reasonable solution. I also will not use a doomfist combo, and I do play Chaos primarily, so I am not using the interpretation that is most beneficial to me. Please read my prior posts before accusing me of such.

When this shows up at a game, I do what I believe most reasonable people do. I let my opponent know that the rules are contradictory on the issue, and back it up with the thankfully simple and short case outlined in this thread. I then let him choose whether his doomfist strikes at I1 or first.

If he insists that the rules are not contradictory, and that they are 100% clearcut in allowing the fist to go first, then he is sufficiently unreasonable that trying to change his mind over the course of one game is not worth it, and I continue the game without any further argument on the matter. If he agrees that the rules are contradictory, and that this is a grey area, yet still insists that he gets to go first, then he is unethically taking the most advantageous interpretation of the rule, and someone like that is not worth arguing with either, so the game continues without any further argument. But in almost every instance, the opponent agrees that the rules are contradictory, and takes the least advantageous interpretation. It never turns out to be a very big deal.

And I apologise if I slighted you personally - you had made comments along the line of ' - wants the doomfist to work, but isn't sold yet', so it seemed that you were a player in question who wanted to use the combo.

Why do you assume that the Doom Siren rule is only referencing any weapon the Champion itself is carrying? When it says 'strikes first, regardless of weapons', that doesn't necessarily mean it is only referring to the weapons the champion is carrying. It could also mean regardless of a weapon the opponent may be carrying that allows a bonus to Initiative or first strike. It could also mean regardless of any weapon that might be introduced in following supplements that has a bonus. Assuming that it references Power Fists specifically grants the wording a false specificity.

This is an excellent point, but what other weapons would actually modify this? It does specifically state that models that also have "always strikes first" will get diced off on, so what other than a Power Fist on the champion is actually going to make this any different? I still think that this rule is very specific to Power Fists. Of course, I think my other argument is stronger anyway. This is a shade of the Daemon Icon question; in both cases, the contraversial rule ignores a game mechanic but is proposed to be limited by another rule that simply modifies that game mechanic.

Even though I feel (and have argued) that the doomfist always strikes first under the RAW, one of the main reasons I don't actively play it that way is that the primary reason why the contradiction is resolved is an artifact of the Doom Siren working off of third edition initiative rules while the Power Fist works on fourth edition rules. The 4.2 FAQ plays into it as well. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who wishes to take a doomfist and have it swing first should have to recite the following:

"The Doom Siren was errataed in the 4.2 Chaos FAQ and explained as a misprint, but that FAQ is no longer available on GW's web site, so that ruling is not canonical, but due to the technicalities of how the Chaos codex interacts with the fourth edition main rulebook, it does work."

"The RAW is very clear unforunately it is also completely contradictary..."

To me and my way of thinking that is an oxymoron. If two rules contradict each other then it is not a clear issue. I have to ask myself what is the intent. Did the games designers intend for a model with Doom Siren and a powerfist to strike first? The answer is no in my mind.

You know BloodyT, I was just getting ready to post again in response to your last post when I read over in the cheaters thread that you are a self admitted troll. Oh the good fortune for me, I was going to waste my time trying to illuminate you. Now I can simply ignore your trolling. Carry on.

Darrian

Posted By Darrian13 on 04/15/2006 12:11 PM
If I show up to your game with my doomfisting chaos lord at what initiative do I attack in our game?

Please advise.

Darrian

Although directed at Relic I'll give my 2 cents. I believe the powefist rule overrides the doom siren. However, I would usually allow my opponent to decide and, on occasion, we simply roll off to see how it's played. Not many people take the combo in my area ao it is rarely seen.

As for myself, being mainly a chaos player, my general practice in regards to ambiguous rules such as this is to follow the interpretation that hurts me the most. The reason for this is so that my opponent doesn't think that I am abusing the wording of the rule and it makes the pain of their loss seem a little less.

@Bahkara, I like your reasoning. I hope you did read the prior posts so you know why I posed the question to Relic. If all you are going to use to solve the problem is the RAW, you cannot solve it because the RAW is contradictary. You must either use reason (as Lowinor did) or make some in-game compromise (as Relic did in his response).

Darrian

Posted By BloodyT on 04/15/2006 10:35 PM
"The RAW is very clear unforunately it is also completely contradictary..."

To me and my way of thinking that is an oxymoron. If two rules contradict each other then it is not a clear issue. I have to ask myself what is the intent. Did the games designers intend for a model with Doom Siren and a powerfist to strike first? The answer is no in my mind.

Exactly!  And when a rules interpretation is questionable and in debate, taking the more adventagious interpretation is a form of powergaming.

-Legacy40k

Exactly!

i believe that the powerfist does strike at inititve 1. However, it really doesn't matter, as it strikes before inititve 10 models anyway.

I know this isn't legal, but if you would happen to put the doomsiren on a squigoth (it has initive 1 base) that would strike before everything else.

I feel illuminated now! But how can a squiggoth take the doom siren? Is that really legal?

hPosted By cuda1179 on 04/16/2006 5:40 PM

i believe that the powerfist does strike at inititve 1. However, it really doesn't matter, as it strikes before inititve 10 models anyway.

I know this isn't legal, but if you would happen to put the doomsiren on a squigoth (it has initive 1 base) that would strike before everything else.

Huh?  A powerfist strikes at Initiative 1.. but goes before Initiative 10 models.. that makes no sense at all.

-Legacy40k

Posted By Legacy40k on 04/17/2006 8:42 AM

Huh?  A powerfist strikes at Initiative 1.. but goes before Initiative 10 models.. that makes no sense at all.

-Legacy40k

Think of it like this:

A power sword strikes at Initiative 4, but goes before Initiative 10 models.

Thats what "Strikes First" does. It does not change your initiative, it simply makes you strike before the Initiative sequence occurs. Your initiative is still the same value as it was before.

When a powerfist 'goes' and when it 'strikes' are the same thing. So how can a powerfist strike at both Initiative 1 and first?

In other words, it has I 1, but strikes first regardless. This "strikes at I1, but strikes first" is not a true statement as written.

But, in situations like this should you not refer to the rule book for the final word? Because a red shirt once told me everything that is in a codex can be stricken if it contradicts something in the rule book. So, codex CSM says they strike first, and rule book says that they strike at I 1.

So, you strike at I 1 not before everyone else.

Also, wasn?t the codex written before the new rule book was released making it part of 3rd edt not 4th?

In other words, it has I 1, but strikes first regardless. This "strikes at I1, but strikes first" is not a true statement as written.

Exactly right. 'Strikes at I1, but strikes first' cannot be the solution to the problem. They are two separate points in the close combat resolution. It's like saying 'the train arrives at 9pm, but arrives at 8pm'. These are two separate times - one train can only arrive at one or the other.

The Powerfist does not simply make your Initiative 1. That's not what it says. It says you 'strike at Initiative 1'. That's when your power fist strikes - at the point in the melee phase that is Initiative 1. 'Strikes first' occurs at a different point in the phase. (Unless you believe 'strikes first at I1' means that you strike at I1, but go before other I1 models.) The two instructions are contradictory.

Methinks GW solved this problem under everyones nose, here we go:

Bought a shiney new codex today and broke it open, and took a look at the Doomsiren entry. "... allows a model to strike in initiative order regardless of cover wargear, ect. "

Since a power fist sets your Iniative to 1, thats when you strike. (Note this is an "initiative set" which coupled with the warp scream ability inhearent to all models with the mark of slaanesh doesn't nessecarily mean you'll be going "last")

The old-er interpretation/ruling of this goes something like this.

The powerfist "sets" your initiative to 1 which puts you at a certain spot on the "initiative line" Then your wargear says "strikes first" which sits outside of an initiative set and is not affected by initiative itself, therefore moving you to the front of the "line" irregardless of your initiative. So with your train analogy it'd be more like, "The 9pm train got in front of the 8pm train, because a tornado miraculously picked it up and set it down in front of it,now the 8pm train is after the 9pm train." The 9pm trains engine might be slower but due to extraordinary circumstances (wargear) it's now going to arrive before it.


Kinda a moot point thou.

The powerfist "sets" your initiative to 1 which puts you at a certain spot on the "initiative line"

But that's not right. If it were, then it would be true to say that a doomfist 'has I1, but strikes first'. It's not true, however, because the Powerfist does not 'set' your Initiative to 1. It says, very clearly, that you 'strike at' Initiative 1. That doesn't tell you what to count your Initiative as, nor does it tell you what your Initiative is set as for the purposes of close combat. It tells you the exact time in the melee phase that the powerfist strikes. To strike with a powerfist at a time other than Initiative 1 is directly against what the powerfist tells you to do, which is to strike at I1.

And the Doom Siren telling people to strike in initiative order is, I think, the rule printed in the 1st Printing of the Chaos Codex. That rule is clear. The 3rd Printing, however, which is the one I have and which is the most recent, says 'strikes first'. Which is why this discussion is happening in the first place.