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Some of you may know that I have been having difficulty recently with the definition of 'movement' and how it applies to rules that require it to be defined.  Typically, I've been trying to determine what constitutes 'movement' in order to set off a castellan minefield. 

Most people tend to agree that fleeting in the shooting phase over a minefield would count as movement, so would set off a castellan minefield.

So, trying to apply that scenario and definition of 'movement'- units are not allowed to move after disembarking from a vehicle that moved.  However, units are allowed to assault if the vehicle is open-topped, but they are still prohibited from moving.  This now puts into doubt whether wyches are allowed to fleet after disembarking from a raider. 

Is fleet movement (for all purposes in the game that utilize movement as a defined term)?

- Oaka

If raider moves twelves or less wyches can fleet out.

Posted By BloodyT on 04/17/2006 8:30 AM
If raider moves twelves or less wyches can fleet out.

Mind providing a reason why they can Fleet when they're forbidden from moving any further than to deploy with the specific exception to assault?

Is there a similarity between the disembarkation prevention of further movement, and the use of heavy weapons as a prevention to further movement? I.e. if we allow Wyches to fleet during the shooting phase, must we also allow marker drones to move six inches in the HtH phase after using their markerlight?

@ Antonin,

I took the movement restrictions to be related to which phase it occurs in.  For instance, you cannot shoot heavy weapons if the model has already moved that turn.  So once you shoot that heavy weapon, you would then be allowed to move as normal for the remainder of the turn.  I hope that is true because I was subject over the weekend to a stealth suit team that would shoot a heavy marker light then move back in the assault phase. 

Because the vehicle rules prohibit movement after disembarking, fleet would be considered part of that prohibition as it happens after disembarking.

It is my understanding that you are allowed to move as normal in the assault phase (provided you are able to), regardless of what weapon you shoot, as the only restrictions exist towards movement prior to firing the weapon.  Specific cases where this does not apply have noted exceptions (crisis suits can't move in the assault phase after deepstriking, but this doesn't really need to be stated in the Tau codex as the generic rules for deepstrikers prohibit any further movement that turn).

This argument seems to boil down to this:

"Models may not move after disembarking from a vehicle."

"Models may shoot after disembarking from a vehicle."

"Instead of shooting, a unit may fleet."

So, fleet needs to be either movement or 'instead of shooting'.  I would have to say it is movement because of the way that castellan minefields work.

- Oaka

Excuse the fact I don't have my rule book on me, but I see it this way...

The no movement after disembarking is a rule for the movement phase. Fleet is a special rule for the shooting phase.

Like I said, I dont have my rulebook with me so I can't see the exact RAW.

Actually, I think you are misquoting the rule slightly. I cannot find anything that says "If a unit disembarks from a vehicle after the vehicle has moved, then that unit may not move."

Here are the relevant rules, all from page 62 of the BGB.

"A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can get out either before or after the vehicle has moved. When the unit disembarks, each model must be deployed with 2" of one of the vehicles's access points, and within unit coherency."

"If the vehicles has already moved, the passengers move only far enough to deploy and cannot disembark at all if the vehicle moved more than 12" Once the models have desembarked, the vehicle may not move any further or make any turns."

"After disembarking, models may shoot (counting as moving) but may not assault unles the vehicle has "open topped" noted in its provile, is a Land Raider (or one of its variants) or did not move before the passengers disembarked.

Nowhere does it specifically state that the unit in question "cannot move." It just restricts how far they can normally move.

If we look at the general vs specific way of interpretting the rules, I think it would look like this:

-Generally, units can only move far enough to deploy after exiting a vehicle that has moved 12" or less.

-Generally, such units that have deployed may shoot, but count as having moved.

-Specifically, units with Fleet of Foot may move instead of shooting.

Would not this general vs specific way of interpretting the rules result this way? Or am I smoking crack again?

Sal.

From page 62 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook:

If the vehicle has moved, the passengers move only far enough to deploy...

By using Fleet you have moved farther than what was necessary to deploy. Hence you have broken one of the rules for disembarking from a vehicle that has moved.

I found a RAW for this, in the DE Codex, page 4, Fleet of Foot, "The Dark Eldar are a lithe and agile race, noted for their fleetness of foot. In the shooting phase, you may declare a dark eldar is going to run instead of shoot. Roll a D6. The result is the distance the unit may move in the shooting phase. This movement is not affect by difficult terrain or any other movement restrictions."

@ Oaka - That's the way I have usually taken it too - I was reading the thread on movement restrictions on markerlight drones before I read this thread, and wondered if perhaps I had been playing my DE wrong. Your points are good, though - the movement restriction does seem to be specific to the phase, at least for fleet of foot. However, it is my understanding that shooting a heavy weapon prevents all movement at any point during the round - so charging is out, as movement. It sounds like that shuts down drone movement durign the assault phase, too. My comparison was inaccurate, because there is different wording between the two restrictions.

I found a RAW for this, in the DE Codex, page 4, Fleet of Foot, "The Dark Eldar are a lithe and agile race, noted for their fleetness of foot. In the shooting phase, you may declare a dark eldar is going to run instead of shoot. Roll a D6. The result is the distance the unit may move in the shooting phase. This movement is not affect by difficult terrain or any other movement restrictions."

 

Unfortunately, this wording isn't retained in the USR section in the BGB.  There, it says only (pg 74) "...Ignoreing penalties for difficult terrain."

I still feel this is an issue where specific over-rules the general.  Using the Tau for example, generally, a unit may only target a single enemy unit; however, give the unit a Target Lock, they can split fire.  Same for Space Wolf Longfangs.  Face it, there are lots of specific, targetted rules that allow units to avoid the normal (general) rules.  Normally, shooting attacks with strength equal to double target's toughness result in instakill if the target fails its armor save; DE Grotesques and CSM characters with Daemonic Rune ignore this.  We could go on and on finding such exceptions.

Fleet of Foot/Wing/Hoof doesn't check whether or not you disembarked, it just checks whether or not you have fired a weapon or used a "counts as firing a weapon" psychic power.  The Disembarkating rules applies to everyone who gets out of a vehicle.  The FoF rules only applies to those units that have the ability to FoF.  To me, and I could be wrong, this is an example of specific over-riding the general.  Remember, the Disembarking rule itself lists examples of how you can move after disembarking from a vehicle (see the section on assaulting in the last paragraph of the Disembarking section).

Now, I could be completely wrong on this.  I am far from a total rules expert.  But simply stating that FoF by nature violates the "...only move far enough to deploy" phrase doesn't cut it for me.  They may shoot if they disembark; FoF only checks whether or not you have shot that turn.  I'm afraid this one might turn into one of those debates the PPC arguments can argue both ways.

Sal

Posted By Saldiven on 04/17/2006 11:49 AM

I found a RAW for this, in the DE Codex, page 4, Fleet of Foot(...)This movement is not affect by difficult terrain or any other movement restrictions."

Unfortunately, this wording isn't retained in the USR section in the BGB.  There, it says only (pg 74) "...Ignoreing penalties for difficult terrain."

The DE codex update doesn't refer to the USRs, which is lucky for you if you really want to push your advantage.  And that's what this particular debate is all about, isn't it?  The disembarkation rules say no movement being allowed, but there's no definition to the term "movement restriction" as used in the Dark Eldar codex.  Personally, I'm wary of what's happening here, but it doesn't look like there's a completely clear answer in the rules as written.  The most egalitarian thing to do is go by the less advantageous interpretation. 

Your wyches already have a 20" charge, what with the raiders movement, disembark move, and your 6" charge.  Maybe more if you deploy from the front of the vehicle.

Short answer.. yes.

The restriction on movement allowed after disembarking from an open topped vehicle is restricted to the movement phase.  If there was no movement allowed.. then it would be impossible to assault.. which we all know.  The only restrictions on fleet of foot is that you must be allowed to shoot,  it may not be used to cover impassible terrain (But is unaffected by difficult ground) and that the unit may not be embarked on a vehicle (it is only possible to disembark in the movement phase.)   

So.. Because the wyches have disembarked from an opentopped vehicle and they are allowed to shoot,  they may opt to fleet of foot instead, and then assault.

-Legacy40k

And, it's not just Wyches. Warriors can fleet out of their Raider as well. Fleeting happens in the shooting phase. It is not normal movement. Fleet movement also ignores difficult terrain. The rules of the movement phase apply only peripherally to Fleet movement, and then, only in the specific ways the rulebook delineates.

Posted by Legacy40k on 04/17/2006 3:30 PM
The restriction on movement allowed after disembarking from an open topped vehicle is restricted to the movement phase. If there was no movement allowed.. then it would be impossible to assault.. which we all know.

Except the rules don't forbid movement just in the Movement phase. It forbids movement, period. Secondly, there is an exception listed that allows you to assault. The RAW would allow you to assault and still not make any other movement the entire turn.

Posted by xtapl on 04/17/2006 4:12 PM
And, it's not just Wyches. Warriors can fleet out of their Raider as well. Fleeting happens in the shooting phase. It is not normal movement. Fleet movement also ignores difficult terrain. The rules of the movement phase apply only peripherally to Fleet movement, and then, only in the specific ways the rulebook delineates.

Except you can't support that position, can you? No. It doesn't matter if it happens in the Shooting phase, or if it's not 'normal' movement or if it ignores difficult terrain. It is movement. The RAW does not make a distinction on what type of movement you can or can not do once you disembark with the exception of assaulting. If a model disembarks from a vehicle that has moved, then it may not move any further than to deploy, period. The one and only exception is that they can assault if they disembarked from an open-topped vehicle or a Land Raider.

I have found the closest thing to a truism 40k can come by, thanks to my time spent on Dakka, and it is this: "The second someone uses the acronym, 'RAW,' it is immediate grounds for dismissal of everything else they have to say, because what follows is sure to be pure excrement." But since it's the only way to communicate with a large portion of the population here, I'll indulge you for a second.

The "rules as written," such as they are, in question here are not in the vehicle section. They are on page 74. "In a turn in which models with this rule do not shoot or use a psychic power that replaces shooting, they can move an additional D6" in the Shooting phase, ingoring penaties for terrain."

It most certainly does matter what phase it happens in. The rules don't say, "Unless the unit disembarked from a vehicle in the Movement phase." It says they can move. Period. It doesn't qualify at all. The unit may move. Before, they couldn't, because p.62 said so. But now they can, because p.74 is a specific exception to the rules. A model with Fleet of Foot may *always* use the D6" move if it was eligible to shoot or use a psychic power and chooses not to. There is really only one question to answer:

"Was the unit eligible to shoot or use a psychic power this turn?"

If the answer is yes, they may Fleet of Foot. End of story. Thanks for coming, don't forget to tip your waitress.

Posted by xtapl on 04/17/2006 11:44 PM
It most certainly does matter what phase it happens in.

No it does not. It states that "... the passengers move only far enough to deploy..." It does not say "... the passengers move only far enough in the Movement phase to deploy..." You're adding a caveat to the rules that you can not support.

Posted by xtapl on 04/17/2006 11:44 PM
The "rules as written," such as they are, in question here are not in the vehicle section. They are on page 74. "In a turn in which models with this rule do not shoot or use a psychic power that replaces shooting, they can move an additional D6" in the Shooting phase, ingoring penaties for terrain."

And those rules in no way, shape or form allow you to make a move when you are forbidden from moving, do they? No. The rule in question is indeed on page 62 where it states that "... the passengers move only far enough to deploy...". Nothing in the Fleet rules overrides this. By your logic, a unit that is pinned would be able to Fleet. Is that the case? So why would a unit be able to Fleet after disembarking when the rules only allow "... the passengers (to) move only far enough to deploy..." and yet not be able to Fleet when pinned?

Posted by xtapl on 04/17/2006 11:44 PM
"Was the unit eligible to shoot or use a psychic power this turn?"

If the answer is yes, they may Fleet of Foot. End of story. Thanks for coming, don't forget to tip your waitress.

No, because Fleet is not shooting and it is not using a psychic power is it? No. It is movement. Shooting has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not a unit is able to move. None whatsoever.

Posted By Ghaz on 04/17/2006 11:35 PM

Posted by xtapl on 04/17/2006 11:44 PM
The "rules as written," such as they are, in question here are not in the vehicle section. They are on page 74. "In a turn in which models with this rule do not shoot or use a psychic power that replaces shooting, they can move an additional D6" in the Shooting phase, ingoring penaties for terrain."

And those rules in no way, shape or form allow you to make a move when you are forbidden from moving, do they? No. The rule in question is indeed on page 62 where it states that "... the passengers move only far enough to deploy...". Nothing in the Fleet rules overrides this. By your logic, a unit that is pinned would be able to Fleet. Is that the case? So why would a unit be able to Fleet after disembarking when the rules only allow "... the passengers (to) move only far enough to deploy..." and yet not be able to Fleet when pinned?

Page 32 of Big Grey states that pinned units can't shoot, thus can not fleet. Bad example.

Disembarking is an action during the movement phase. Fleet is a specific rule during the shooting phase. Unless specified by a rule, one has no bearing on the other and the specific rule overrides.

And again, Fleeting is done instead of shooting. IT IS NOT SHOOTING. IT IS MOVEMENT.

Secondly, the rules don't make a distinction for what phase the movement occurs in. Show me one place where the rules state that when you disembark that you can only move far enough to deploy IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE. If you can't, then your arguments have no weight.

So are you saying that once you disembark from a vehicle, that you can't move for the rest of the game? There is no time limit listed for not being able to move further than the 2" disembarkation...

Posted By Ghaz on 04/18/2006 12:34 AM
And again, Fleeting is done instead of shooting. IT IS NOT SHOOTING. IT IS MOVEMENT.

Secondly, the rules don't make a distinction for what phase the movement occurs in. Show me one place where the rules state that when you disembark that you can only move far enough to deploy IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE. If you can't, then your arguments have no weight.


The distinction of what phases you may or may not move in is in the paragraph above where it says that you may not fleet of foot if you disembark from a vehicle.

Oh... right... that doesnt exist.

-Legacy40k

You can't make someone see if they insist on repeatedly jabbing themselves in the eyeballs with a pencil...

It has been explained to Ghaz by several different people. At this point, he's arguing to hear the sound of his own voice (or the look of his own typing, in this case). Continuing to argue with him is like climbing into the monkey cage at the zoo. Sure, you can fling poo at them and let them fling poo at you, but after a while, you realize the monkey is enjoying it a lot more than you are.

Xtapl, your attack on Ghaz is lame at best. Atleast mauleed's jabs are amusing, yours are just poo slinging. Besides, Ghaz is one guy who stays away from personal attacks and while his wrting style is ascirbic, he in no way attacked you personally (at least as far as I know).

I also suggest you consider the benefit you get from knowing all the possible interpretations you may encounter among the players before slighting YMDC and its contributors. Or just stay the hell away, in the smug knowledge that you are smarter then all of dakka.

Ghaz, by your logic you could never fleet, as the rules restrict an infantry models movement to no further then 6". You'd also never move after disembarking unless you assault, as it doesn't specify when you are allowed to move again.

Xtapl, et al have a sound argument (that FoF implicitly supercedes normal movement restrictions). Your argument seems tenuous at best, relying only on the ambiguity of the rules for disembarktion. I guess my question to you is, do you and your local gamers play this way? i've never seen or heard this interpretation before and would be surprised to see it enforced.

You're absolutely right, winterman. I am lame. I am the lamest of the lame. Someone should punch me in my stupid mouth.

in the smug knowledge that you are smarter then all of dakka

I rest my case.

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V V V

Posted By xtapl on 04/18/2006 1:18 PM
You're absolutely right, winterman. I am lame. I am the lamest of the lame. Someone should punch me in my stupid mouth.

in the smug knowledge that you are smarter then all of dakka

I rest my case.

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V V V

Just remember you are a contributing member

What it all boils down to is when does the 2" restriction apply: the entire turn, or just the movement phase?  Unfortunately, I don't think it's worded one way or the other (we'll ignore the assault move as part of this argument, as it is an explicitly stated special case), so we can't really make a judgement.  My immediate interpretation was that the 2" restriction was only in the movement phase, but that's just a gut reaction (ie, not backed up in the book).

Looks like we'll have to D6 it until a FAQ comes out.

in the smug knowledge that you are smarter then all of dakka

I rest my case.

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V V V

The intelligence level on Dakka sometimes makes me want to commit crimes against humanity...

So you can spell but you can't read. You really are more 'intelligent' then us uneducated louts on dakka.

Xtapl, your attack on Ghaz is lame at best.

You're absolutely right, winterman. I am lame. I am the lamest of the lame. Someone should punch me in my stupid mouth.

I never said you were lame, just your attempt at humor. I think you're the one enjoying flinging the poo.  In fact think some of the infamous dakka contributors are starting to rub off on you. 

Just make sure to include yourself if you ever get to committing those crimes against humanity.  The intelligence level on dakka is sure to rise...

Yes, wyches can fleet out of a raider. Here are the reasons.

1st Under the disembarking section read carefully, there is not any area where it states that the passangers are "forbidden, restricted from, or in any other way prohibited" noting only "only far enough to deploy."

2nd This movement occurs during the "Movement phase"

3rd The section under disembarking states that the models that disembark can still shoot

4th The fleet rule in the rulebook says "models that do not shoot ... can move an additional d6 in the shooting phase'"

5th Raiders are open topped, allowing it to move 12' and passangers still assault.

Posted by Agamemnon on 04/18/2006 11:23 PM
1st Under the disembarking section read carefully, there is not any area where it states that the passangers are "forbidden, restricted from, or in any other way prohibited" noting only "only far enough to deploy."

And where does it say that my Orks are "forbidden, restricted from, or in any other way prohibited" from taking terminator armor, twin-linked railguns and iron haloes? The rules don't tell you what you are "forbidden, restricted from, or in any other way prohibited" from doing. They tell you what you are permitted to do. Now point out where they're permitted to move any further than to deploy.

Posted by Agamemnon on 04/18/2006 11:23 PM
2nd This movement occurs during the "Movement phase"

So what?

Posted by Agamemnon on 04/18/2006 11:23 PM
3rd The section under disembarking states that the models that disembark can still shoot

Once again, FLEET IS NOT SHOOTING. It is MOVEMENT that is done in place of shooting. If you can shoot but you can not move then you CAN NOT USE FLEET.

Posted by Agamemnon on 04/18/2006 11:23 PM
4th The fleet rule in the rulebook says "models that do not shoot ... can move an additional d6 in the shooting phase'"

Same answer as above. You can not Fleet if you can not move.

Posted by Agamemnon on 04/18/2006 11:23 PM
5th Raiders are open topped, allowing it to move 12' and passangers still assault.

They have a special exception that allows them to assault. Where is there an exception for any other movement?

Posted By Ghaz on 04/18/2006 11:02 PM

Posted by Agamemnon on 04/18/2006 11:23 PM
1st Under the disembarking section read carefully, there is not any area where it states that the passangers are "forbidden, restricted from, or in any other way prohibited" noting only "only far enough to deploy."

And where does it say that my Orks are "forbidden, restricted from, or in any other way prohibited" from taking terminator armor, twin-linked railguns and iron haloes? The rules don't tell you what you are "forbidden, restricted from, or in any other way prohibited" from doing. They tell you what you are permitted to do. Now point out where they're permitted to move any further than to deploy.

Posted by Agamemnon on 04/18/2006 11:23 PM
2nd This movement occurs during the "Movement phase"

So what?

Posted by Agamemnon on 04/18/2006 11:23 PM
3rd The section under disembarking states that the models that disembark can still shoot

Once again, FLEET IS NOT SHOOTING. It is MOVEMENT that is done in place of shooting. If you can shoot but you can not move then you CAN NOT USE FLEET.

Posted by Agamemnon on 04/18/2006 11:23 PM
4th The fleet rule in the rulebook says "models that do not shoot ... can move an additional d6 in the shooting phase'"

Same answer as above. You can not Fleet if you can not move.

Posted by Agamemnon on 04/18/2006 11:23 PM
5th Raiders are open topped, allowing it to move 12' and passangers still assault.

They have a special exception that allows them to assault. Where is there an exception for any other movement?

For being unwavering in your resolve.. you win the award of having an opinion that no longer matters. Only the people who dont feel they are always right, and can accept that they can be wrong have opinions that matter. Beating a dead horse doesnt. enjoy. -Legacy40k