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I had a shower thought this morning and thought I'd run it past you fine people. Lately, I've been digging more and more into smaller skirmish games (Malifaux, Infinity, Mordheim), and the smaller scale has been quite enjoyable. I still like the epic scale of hordes of models and giant tanks. Something I find enjoyable about Malifaux is that, due to the typically low model count, I'm able to take more time painting and assembling each model. The low model count also means collecting several factions without having to trade off or sell what I already have.
I was wondering what people thought of the initial cost of getting into a game as it relates to the eventual cost required to play an "average" game. For instance, in Warmachine you can buy a battlegroup with 1 caster and a few Jacks. It's typically 15 points or so and costs about $50. An average game is somewhere in between 35 and 50 (or 42 if yr German apparently ). That means one would need about another $75 or so to really get into playing the game "at the typical points level". This doesn't really include adding options to swap out for 2-list tournaments, might hinder the number of casters, units or jacks you have, etc. Still, it's a decent start.
Infinity and Malifaux follow a similar strategy where you can buy a playable list for around $50. These sets aren't nearly as hobbled as Warmachine (I'm looking at you, Khador), and tend to only need a blister or two to get up to standard level of play. If you wanted to add a bit of variety/options, you could pick up a few more models (oh and why not the rules) and bring the total up to a little over $125.
Everyone already knows how expensive 40k/Fantasy are, so I'll skip that part (hint: it's more than what i've already listed). The point is that these games too have "starter forces" which seem tailored to be an entry point for the game. I don't think anyone would want to play 40k if all you had on the table was a battleforce and an extra unit or two. I also don't think anyone plays Warmachine battlegroup matches too much either. It might be that I just want Warmachine or 40k/FB to still be skirmish games, but it seems to me that the gaming market has set an average entry price and I'd like to see the size of games played reflect that. Is that weird? When I look at Dropzone Commander, the size of the battles are CRAZY, but since the models are small, the cost also fits in with this average entry price for the standard level of play.
When it comes to these larger model count 28mm games, WHY do they "shine" at that higher point level? I don't think WM plays any differently at 35, 50 or 75 personally. It just takes longer. From what I've observed and played of 40k, I could say the same, though at low low points levels things are more askew. Fantasy tends to use much larger "bricks" of units, plus crazy magic stuff could destroy an opponent quickly, but a little pre-game talk could fix that (nothing higher than level 1, no lords, no D weapons, etc). It seems to me, as someone who likes to have a lot diversity on my minis shelves, that the larger scale games are more about bringing all the toys instead of just the basics.
TL;DR Do we HAVE to play large scale battles to still feel like it's a "wargame"? If so, why not Ogre?
In my opinion, a Wargame insinuates that it's about war. I'd expect to see larger numbers of units, vehicles, and such due to my preconceptions about what war is. A game like Inifinity is not a Wargame, but a skirmish. Smaller number of models/units, no vehicles, and activation is by model rather than a group of models.
As far as WHFB goes, no, it doesn't make any economic sense because it's attempting to produce 6mm or 10mm scale tactics using 28mm figures. "Let's see, this unit is $2 per wound counter, I want to field a block of 5 by 5. The model's for that unit are ..."
As far as 40k goes, what makes it "required" to play at the 1000+ point level is that the transitions from Rogue Trader to 2nd edition to 3rd removed the flexibility and individual model mechanics typically associated with a "skirmish" game and applied the "simplifications" designed to make larger games practical. Really, if you try to play 40k at 350 or 500 points, you end up having to make up rules to break units up or otherwise add flexibility back into the mechanics of those units.
If you have Unit A (collection of X models) attack Unit B (collection of Y models) and you distribute hits abstractly, that's over the dividing line between skirmish level and large battles.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/11 07:15:59
There are plenty of companies producing more or less everything in a smaller scale, though 15mm seems to be pretty popular at the moment, there's also 10mm, 6mm, 3mm and 2mm, though the 2 and 3mm are only really useable for mechs/tanks/ships.
You can play anything you want with any mini scale (there's a lot of people play Napoleonics in 54mm or 76mm) but you obviously have to make allowances - bigger mini's just means a higher mini:unit ratio (i.e. in 54mm your unit may be made up of 4 mini's on 40x40mm bases, but in 28mm you'd have 16 mini's on 20x20 bases, in 15mm you'd have 128 mini's on 40x20mm bases, and so on), or using bigger tables.
These days I use 2 scales - 28-35mm mini's for skirmish games and 15mm mini's for big wargames. So on the same table I can play a Malifaux game with 8 mini's a side one night, and an ancients game with 200+ mini's a side the next.
People do seem to get hung up on 28mm as the one true scale which is a shame though, because they miss out. Ditto for not splitting mini's from rules - If I like a game that was written for 28mm games (like Hail Caesar or 40K), then I can still play it with 15mm figures either as is, or by changing inches to cm or halving the values.
As to why 40K/WHF do better at bigger scales? Partially balance - at low point values you have to compromise a lot more and super-units can skew things further, but with more points you can cover more bases (i.e. you don't have to choose between anti-tank and anti-aircraft support). With WHF it's partially because it favours big units and the game is more fun with more controllable units. A small game may only give you a hero and 2 units, which is really just 3 'controllable things' with a lot of wound counters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/11 08:57:43
These days I use 2 scales - 28-35mm mini's for skirmish games and 15mm mini's for big wargames. So on the same table I can play a Malifaux game with 8 mini's a side one night, and an ancients game with 200+ mini's a side the next.
So I guess WM is the odd duck for me in all this then. The models aren't just wound counters and tend to have lots of rules to go along.
What about this average cost (money-wise) as it relates to average game(points-wise)? Obviously the GW games are out, but do most other wargame or skirmish games follow this general "buy-in" price?
I agree with not marrying a scale to rules. It's possible to pick up say the flames of war starter set, which while it gives you the bare minimum for flames of war, under Bolt action based individually you'd get something like two sides of 4000 points for about the cost of a single 1000 point bolt action army (to pose a slightly extreme example.)
- 1250 points
Empire of the Blazing Sun (Combined Theaters)- 1950 points
FUBAR Starship Troopers- Would you like to know more?
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doc1234 wrote: I agree with not marrying a scale to rules. It's possible to pick up say the flames of war starter set, which while it gives you the bare minimum for flames of war, under Bolt action based individually you'd get something like two sides of 4000 points for about the cost of a single 1000 point bolt action army (to pose a slightly extreme example.)
Also Bolt Action is very playable in 15mm, its also similar to 40k, its not a skirmish game, its growing to get more models on the table and the individual models are not handled as a skirmish game would - they are basically very like the way 40k handles things.
Playing it at 15mm, using FoW basing and wound markers actually plays nicely as the units act as one anyway pretty much.
That self same FoW set actually is not bad for playing flames either, both sides are pretty decent (once you get past the utterly horrible Sherman models with a slight glitch in assembly to say the least).
Of course GHQ do 6mm ww2, which could do flames even cheaper, or bolt action probably as well (think epic scale).
Recently got into navel wargames, Denmark Straight is four ships and a rulebook, and is a highly interesting game as well (playing using GHQ Micronaughts), a more detailed set of rules would work for this as well.
Also air warfare, check out "Wings at War", a tenner for the rules with a couple of flights of planes as well, IIRC two flights each of spitfires and hurricanes facing two flights of Bf109e, a flight of Bf110 and a flight of Dornier 17 light bombers, just add flight stands and dice.
Warhammer is mad starting from scratch, but with a few tweaks works for smaller games (basically adjusting winds of magic generation), not sure on 40k as not played the current or previous edition. 1st edition had a six model Grey Knights army for a good whack of points that was insane in close terrain, and was perfectly playable with five marines on each side - indeed it still is, the close combat system is a bit daft - but works in small games.
Lord of the Rings is also worth a look, the rules are actually very good - and can be used with any old models easily, this is a reasonably good skirmish game - models are individuals but able to work together.
Sinful Hero wrote: In my opinion, a Wargame insinuates that it's about war. I'd expect to see larger numbers of units, vehicles, and such due to my preconceptions about what war is. A game like Inifinity is not a Wargame, but a skirmish. Smaller number of models/units, no vehicles, and activation is by model rather than a group of models.
So under your opinion, only 2-6mm scale games are wargames.
Sinful Hero wrote: In my opinion, a Wargame insinuates that it's about war. I'd expect to see larger numbers of units, vehicles, and such due to my preconceptions about what war is. A game like Inifinity is not a Wargame, but a skirmish. Smaller number of models/units, no vehicles, and activation is by model rather than a group of models.
So under your opinion, only 2-6mm scale games are wargames.
Sinful Hero wrote: In my opinion, a Wargame insinuates that it's about war. I'd expect to see larger numbers of units, vehicles, and such due to my preconceptions about what war is. A game like Inifinity is not a Wargame, but a skirmish.
The way you have written that makes it sound like the units in Infinity are running up and slapping each other ineffectually, rather than fighting..
Both skirmish and mass-combat systems feature the tactical manoeuvre of units, strategic selection of them, movement of units on terrain at various levels of abstraction/scale, the rolling of dice to represent probability. They are different types of wargame, but I think the name gives it away and they should still both be classed as such.
Oh, I wasn't arguing not to call a game like Infinity a Wargame, I just think of it more as a skirmish. The setting as a whole makes it a Wargame, but an individual game is a skirmish. This is all just my personal perceptions of various games- I'm not advocating for not calling something a wargame. It's fine as a genre name.
I've been thinking about this a lot recently myself, as I tend to be the 'new games' guy at my gaming club.
First off, lets go for the easy one. Dreadball.
You want to play humans, or you want to play Orx? Buy the boxed game and download the freedigital rules too, which have the alternative ball launch rules in them job done. For the price of the boxed game, £50 RPP
Want to play a different team?
Look for their relevant rulebook (Either season 2 or season 3) and the team set, job's a good 'un. - £15 for the team, £10 for the rules.
-------------------
Now, a really interesting one is also Mantic's Deadzone, an X-Com/Necromunda-ey skirmish game. The starter set is £65, with both Plague and Enforcer 'Strike Teams' inside it, plus some terrain. The interesting thing though, is that the standard Deadzone game is 70 points in size. You get 130 points worth of Enforcers in the starter set, and around 90 points worth of Plague. Now, while there are additional models you can buy for the game (obviously), providing you have some extra terrain already (the GW cities of death, barricades etc work great), you basically have a completely playable force there, with extra options.
Most of the time, the Plague models I use in my strike team come solely from the starter set. My enforcers use a single alternative model for a sergeant.
--------------
Stepping away from Mantic for a bit, I play X-Wing too. X-Wing is a stonking wee game and you might be forgiven for thinking it has a high buy in.
The truth is, you can have a bit of fun with the starter set, which is only about £25 normally, if you play Rebels, you probably want to buy another 2-3 ships, at about £11 each. If you're imperials, you'd probably want another 3-4. Admittedly, it can get expensive due to the nature of the game where, if you want to get into competitive play, you may wish to get a certain ship you don't particularly want to use, but for a specific card for some awesome build you have in mind. However, a common thing people do for the game is buy 2 starter sets, to get a 2nd X-Wing and another pair of TIE Fighters. They then often buy the X-Wing and TIE Fighter booster pack, which comes with alternative pilot cards. Then, maybe an extra rebel ship and an extra 2 Imperial ships. So, you're talking for the 'full' game experience with 2 fleets at the standard tournament level of 100 points for about £73. Oh, and they come pre-assembled and prepainted. So no glue required and the paintjobs are awesome.
-----------------
Star Trek Attack Wing is like X-wing, with small changes. For one, generally speaking, you need less physical ships to play a game. - Fleets are often no more than 1-4 ships. However, when you start wanting to look at things even halfway competitively, Wizkids really do go a 'gotta catch 'em all' approach. For example, Captain Janeway from the USS Voyager set is awesome on the USS Enterprise NCC-1701, but to ensure the USS Enterprise NCC-1701's survivability, you probably need to use the Enterprise NX-01's 'Enhanced Hull Plating' upgrade.
It gets worse those, when you go past the 'halfway competitive' mark, you're probably looking at Ebay to grab that ultra limited edition prize ship which has that special upgrade on it. At that point, you're talking around £40 each for a tiny model ship and a few bits of cardboard.
Oh, and the paintjobs are pants, so you might have a monkey on your back each time you play the game demanding that you repaint the models.
As you might guess, I've grown a bit less enamoured of Attack Wing overall.
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Finally, we have the game I was playing tonight. Dropzone Commander.
That's the starter set there, which has the RRP of £60 and is, in my view, one of the best starter sets on the market (although... Deadzone probably edges out). You get the full Dropzone Commander rulebook in the starter set, plus 2 550 point armies, plus a mat and terrain - dd even that mini tape measure.
Now, the kinda cool thing here is, the starter set is perfectly playable, repeatedly, as a standalone game. I have literally ran and played in more than 20 demo games with the Starter Scenario (Lightning Raid) now, and there's still little changes of tactics and things to work out with the models available. The game also scales a whole lot better than 40k ever did for me. I've always found 1000 point 40k games to be beyond terrible. - You have a Land Raider / Leman Russ in your list. I managed to squeeze the points in for a melta gun, I'm going to have a great time here! I imagine it's a helluva lot worse with Flyers now.
Every army in Dropzone basically has its own 'Force Org' chart for 3 different point scales. 0-999, 1000-1,999 and 2000+. Called, 'Skirmish' 'Clash' and 'Battles.'
Each level is a completely viable game in its own right, with more options opening up as you get to the larger points. For example, you won't see a Fighter Plane.
In a 999pt Skirmish game. An Air Wing battlegroup only becomes available in a 'Clash' and multiple Air Wings only become unlocked in Battles. This helps ensure that every level of gameplay is a fair match. And, to be honest, playing a 999 point Skirmish game is great fun.
But, the whole point of this rambling is the money. The game is played on a similar points scale to 40k. So you're tournament standard is a 1,500 point game and your starter set comes with 550 points of 2 (out of 5) armies. However, what's awesome is that in September there, Hawk Wargames released plastic starter armies for 4 out of 5 factions for £35 each. These are basically the two starter set forces in their own box then a similar individual army set for the other 2. - One of the neat things is, that these other starter armies also come with an intro duction playsheet so, if you've got the Starter Set and one of your mates just buys the Starter Army for his favourite faction, he can just slot it into the demo game with his starter army of choice and no drama at all. - All the starter armies are balanced against each other.
I found that 2 starter armies is a pretty good start for the core of a faction for various reasons. So, going for full RRP (though Hawk Wargames do pretty awesome army deals at various points levels), including the Core rulebook, you're talking about no more than £130 or so for a tournament ready 1500pt army. - The example I made up was 2 UCM Starter Armies (£70), Kodiak Armoured Command Vehicle (£11), Scout Buggy Squad (£7.50), Light Dropships (£10), Archangel Interceptor Squad (£11), Rulebook (£15.00) and Command Cards (£5).
So yeah, if you like 40k and big proper 'wargames' definitely have a look at Dropzone Commander.
So what I'm hearing, at least when it comes to 40k/Fantasy, is the larger sized battles come from rules changes and the scale creep.
Not entirely. Using historical and anecdotal evidence, the larger battle sizes are also the result of the company surviving long enough for fans to amass large collections.
I started out playing 40k collecting Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons back when it was just "Chaos". One day, during the period where the Daemons and CSM were separate armies, I looked over at my model collection and realized I had enough daemon models to play WHFB. Primarily because my collection had samples of the various resculpts across the 20-some year history of the game, but still my collection had just ended up with that many models.
When a game company says "People kept asking us for rules for bigger games, so we gave it to them," there's some truth to it.
Sinful Hero wrote: In my opinion, a Wargame insinuates that it's about war. I'd expect to see larger numbers of units, vehicles, and such due to my preconceptions about what war is. A game like Inifinity is not a Wargame, but a skirmish. Smaller number of models/units, no vehicles, and activation is by model rather than a group of models.
So under your opinion, only 2-6mm scale games are wargames.
Sure, or larger scales with more models.
Barring a few exceptions (mainly some hall wide table full of Napoleonic) I have not seen any game of 15-28mm that has the model count to meet your "wargame" criteria.
Sinful Hero wrote: In my opinion, a Wargame insinuates that it's about war. I'd expect to see larger numbers of units, vehicles, and such due to my preconceptions about what war is. A game like Inifinity is not a Wargame, but a skirmish. Smaller number of models/units, no vehicles, and activation is by model rather than a group of models.
So under your opinion, only 2-6mm scale games are wargames.
Sure, or larger scales with more models.
Barring a few exceptions (mainly some hall wide table full of Napoleonic) I have not seen any game of 15-28mm that has the model count to meet your "wargame" criteria.
What are you assuming my wargame criteria are?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/12 13:32:40
Sinful Hero wrote:
What are you assuming my Wargame criteria is?
I am assuming this
Sinful Hero wrote:In my opinion, a Wargame insinuates that it's about war. I'd expect to see larger numbers of units, vehicles, and such due to my preconceptions about what war is. A game like Inifinity is not a Wargame, but a skirmish. Smaller number of models/units, no vehicles, and activation is by model rather than a group of models.
So nothing of company level or lower should count since all these are skirmishes and not a depiction of the main battle lines that is the "war".
Sinful Hero wrote:
What are you assuming my Wargame criteria is?
I am assuming this
Sinful Hero wrote:In my opinion, a Wargame insinuates that it's about war. I'd expect to see larger numbers of units, vehicles, and such due to my preconceptions about what war is. A game like Inifinity is not a Wargame, but a skirmish. Smaller number of models/units, no vehicles, and activation is by model rather than a group of models.
So nothing of company level or lower should count since all these are skirmishes and not a depiction of the main battle lines that is the "war".
Three units and two tanks are plenty enough of a wargame for those those criteria. That's a lot larger than 8-10 models per side. It's all you ever really see at a time in a war movie anyway, unless they do one of those big panning shots. I would consider 40k, Fantasy, and warmahordes at higher points levels(especially when Gargantuans are involved) as wargames. Note that I mean a game about a battle in a war when I say that. Infinity is a wargame, but a game of infinity I consider a skirmish.
As I said earlier, these are just my musings about my perceptions of different games. I'm not advocating anyone agrees with me or changes the way they think about anything at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry if my language wasn't clear.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/12 13:48:18
). That means one would need about another $75 or so to really get into playing the game "at the typical points level". This doesn't really include adding options to swap out for 2-list tournaments, might hinder the number of casters, units or jacks you have, etc. Still, it's a decent start.
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"Let's see, this unit is $2 per wound counter, I want to field a block of 5 by 5. The model's for that unit are ..."
- 1250 points
