Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

One thing I keep wondering about... So if people would know about the Fallen would they even care? Other chapters had similar issues but no one feels like Ultramarines would have to be declared as traitors.

Is it just a paranoid fear twisted over millenia or is the thing about the DA´s big secret really an issue?

The Imperium cares if you have been near anything that remotely looks like Chaos. Half your Legion going rouge is really going to cause problems.

 welshhoppo wrote:
The Imperium cares if you have been near anything that remotely looks like Chaos. Half your Legion going rouge is really going to cause problems.

They don't seem to care about half a chapter going rogue though, Besides were the traitors stated to be fully half?
Why would the Lion garrison his homeworld with close to like Iunno 50K men?

Considering how many White Scars, Raven Guard and other various legions have turned traitor, no, I don't think the Fallen are a big deal other than to the Dark Angels themselves. Yes they need to be hunted, yes they need to be expunged, but the actions of the Dark Angels themselves are like a kid burning his bed to hide that he pissed in it. They're closer to heresy for their actions HIDING the Fallen than having allowed the Fallen to flee in the first place.

It's sorta a matter of 'in too deep' at this point.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
They're closer to heresy for their actions HIDING the Fallen than having allowed the Fallen to flee in the first place.

It's sorta a matter of 'in too deep' at this point.

This. "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up"

If you read novels like every there are Chapters like the Sons of Guiliman whose only notables are guys who went traitor with their companies.

I think, especially at this point, if the Inquisition found out about the DA's secret... absolutely nothing would happen.

They might attempt some huge confession, but the Inq would look at them funny and say "So... half your number went Traitor during the Heresy? Welcome to the club! Half of everyone went to the other team! Stop sniveling!"

I've always thought their secret was less "Half of us turned bad" but more "Half of us turned bad, and it may not have been the half you thought..." and now they hunt down those who might reveal that actually the 'Loyal' Dark Angels were traitors who realised which way the tide was turning...

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
I've always thought their secret was less "Half of us turned bad" but more "Half of us turned bad, and it may not have been the half you thought..." and now they hunt down those who might reveal that actually the 'Loyal' Dark Angels were traitors who realised which way the tide was turning...

Exactly. And judging the DA based on a few things (Leaving battles to chase The Fallen, killing an entire ship full of Black Templars, putting the emperium second to their own agenda) I think it gives credit to the idea that they're really descended from the cowardly traitors.

There is no way the Imperium would be okay with it. Nobody alive at the time of the Heresy is in power now. There wouldn't be some calm acceptance and an understanding shoulder with a nod to the other legions who lost many members.

The work they have put in over the last 10,000 years to cover things up makes it far worse than what it could have been and there is of course the question of why or how the turning happened.

I think the difference is that the rest of the Legions got to hunt down their traitors, which is why they are so worried.

And yes, the Imperium would care. The foreword for 40K doesn't make it sound totalitarian and intolerant for nothing.

The number of incidents where the DA have acted against Imperial interests can be counted on one hand. The number of times the DA have wiped out some Xeno/Chaotic/Heretic problem cannot even be guessed at.

In the balance, I think the DA have more than proven themselves.

 robam45 wrote:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
I've always thought their secret was less "Half of us turned bad" but more "Half of us turned bad, and it may not have been the half you thought..." and now they hunt down those who might reveal that actually the 'Loyal' Dark Angels were traitors who realised which way the tide was turning...

Exactly. And judging the DA based on a few things (Leaving battles to chase The Fallen, killing an entire ship full of Black Templars, putting the emperium second to their own agenda) I think it gives credit to the idea that they're really descended from the cowardly traitors.

Many Loyalist chapters did much worse.

The only Imperial factions that are 100% pure from Chaos are the Grey Knights and the Adeptas Sororitas.

That said, when a fraction of one of the loyalist Space Marine chapters lost to the abyssal crusade remained loyal by virtue of being garrisoned at the home base (I forget their name, though the traitor band that most of them became was the Vectors of Pox, IIRC), the Inquisition did investigate them just to make sure they weren't tainted. That's as far as it went, though.

But yea, aren't the Dark Angels and their chapters stated to be some of the most active marine chapters when it comes to hunting the Imperium's enemies? I doubt it'd really go that far. Kaldor Draigo had enough evidence but his own attitude about it seemed to indicate he really didn't give a crap, himself (and that's from a Grey Knight, which is like, the only thing besides a Sister of Battle who's allowed to not be a hypocrite in that situation)

Part of the problem is that they've added too many other examples of traitors, so people don't feel the sense of betrayal that the Dark Angels represent in that sense anymore.

And, granted, the current Dark Angels don't know the 'secret' on the most part, and are loyal stalwart members of the Imperium. Still, I think the idea that they may have come from a group of traitors that nearly joined Chaos, and only survived because they completely wiped out the truly loyal members of their Legion makes for a much more interesting back story.

I've always thought that explains the obsessive secrecy and implied cruelty of the inner circle much better than just 'There were some rebels in our midst'.

I always thought the biggest issue was that the or atleast half the Legion turned on it's Primarch. And there was for a long time a question of if the Lion had turned. Current HH books make it obvous he did not turn, but may have become to zealous in the "this is for your own good" category. Pandrox talks about the demon that lead to the fall of the Angels from one who was there.

 Psienesis wrote:
The number of incidents where the DA have acted against Imperial interests can be counted on one hand. The number of times the DA have wiped out some Xeno/Chaotic/Heretic problem cannot even be guessed at.

In the balance, I think the DA have more than proven themselves.

The number of times they have been documented to have acted to find Fallen rather than pursue chaos or act against Imperial interests is documented multiple times. To assume that is the only times they have done it isn't accurate.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The number of incidents where the DA have acted against Imperial interests can be counted on one hand. The number of times the DA have wiped out some Xeno/Chaotic/Heretic problem cannot even be guessed at.

In the balance, I think the DA have more than proven themselves.

The number of times they have been documented to have acted to find Fallen rather than pursue chaos or act against Imperial interests is documented multiple times. To assume that is the only times they have done it isn't accurate.

But it is far, far, FAR fewer times than the combat-actions they have participated in and acquitted themselves well in. After all, of the DA, only a very small portion of the Chapter even knows what the Fallen are. When they withdraw to go somewhere else, they aren't told why. That's for the Inner Circle to know.

So the DA, and all their Successors, are going all over the galaxy, doing Space Mariney things, with, like, 99.99% of their total numbers knowing *nothing at all* of their "dark secret". So... in the end... it's been 10,000 years. What the original DA may have done in the Heresy is... kind of irrelevant, actually. Ever since then, the DA have pretty much been model Space Marines. None of the living DA, or any of their Successors, had a part in the Heresy, so they're attempting to atone for a sin that isn't their's in the first place.

 Psienesis wrote:

So the DA, and all their Successors, are going all over the galaxy, doing Space Mariney things, with, like, 99.99% of their total numbers knowing *nothing at all* of their "dark secret". So... in the end... it's been 10,000 years. What the original DA may have done in the Heresy is... kind of irrelevant, actually. Ever since then, the DA have pretty much been model Space Marines. None of the living DA, or any of their Successors, had a part in the Heresy, so they're attempting to atone for a sin that isn't their's in the first place.

For the most part I agree (especially where the vast majority of those who know of the Dark Angels are concerned). However they along with the Ultramarines have the purest geneseed of the original Chapters. Isn't the reason the Ultramarine geneseed is usually chosen for new Chapters because the High Lords of Terra (among others) are a bit suspicious of the Dark Angels and their actions (and possibly the legion-esque attitude they have with their descendants)?

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
I've always thought their secret was less "Half of us turned bad" but more "Half of us turned bad, and it may not have been the half you thought..." and now they hunt down those who might reveal that actually the 'Loyal' Dark Angels were traitors who realised which way the tide was turning...

this "theory" isn't backed by the facts however.

I saw the cover up myself more as a fear thing. when it happened the heresy had just ended, and the IoM was engaged in clean up. they where likely purging whole elements of the Imperium, clearing out anything that MIGHT have been corrupted. it was proably pretty brutal thus leading the dark angels to fear it could happen to them

I think it's simply availability and mathematics. If you've already got a huge stockpile of one kind, and a slightly-smaller stockpile of the other, and both are restored at the same rate, might as well just use the stock you have the absolute most of, right?

There's also the possibility that the UM, being the wealthiest of the First-Founding Chapters, probably have an easier time kicking some wargear down to their Successors, which saves the AdMech a bunch of time and resources.

 Psienesis wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The number of incidents where the DA have acted against Imperial interests can be counted on one hand. The number of times the DA have wiped out some Xeno/Chaotic/Heretic problem cannot even be guessed at.

In the balance, I think the DA have more than proven themselves.

The number of times they have been documented to have acted to find Fallen rather than pursue chaos or act against Imperial interests is documented multiple times. To assume that is the only times they have done it isn't accurate.

But it is far, far, FAR fewer times than the combat-actions they have participated in and acquitted themselves well in. After all, of the DA, only a very small portion of the Chapter even knows what the Fallen are. When they withdraw to go somewhere else, they aren't told why. That's for the Inner Circle to know.

So the DA, and all their Successors, are going all over the galaxy, doing Space Mariney things, with, like, 99.99% of their total numbers knowing *nothing at all* of their "dark secret". So... in the end... it's been 10,000 years. What the original DA may have done in the Heresy is... kind of irrelevant, actually. Ever since then, the DA have pretty much been model Space Marines. None of the living DA, or any of their Successors, had a part in the Heresy, so they're attempting to atone for a sin that isn't their's in the first place.

Not to mention the Grey Knights also know about the Fallen, and don't have any grief with the Dark Angels to speak of. And they're the one group that would probably stand one of the largest chances of flipping the hell out over it.

At best some Inquisitor may get uppity about it, but he'll be disappeared.

my guess is the inqusition if they found out (assuming they don't already know) wouldn't care. they'd do what the grey knights did with the knowledge, sit on it and use it, if they ever had to, the knowledge itself isn't that big a deal but the leverage it can grant you over the dark angels? that's pretty awesome

Well in the Pandorax novel the Grey Knights use it as leverage against Azaerael so evidently the Dark Angels believe that the Imperium wouldn't take kindly to the knowledge. Also the Imperium may already know as it mentions in the Dark Angels codex when it came to found new chapters for the Adeptus Astartes, they seemed to exclude the Dark Angels geneseed from the selection going into creating said new chapters. The Imperium may have a problem with it, but I doubt they are going to de-stabillize relations with an important first founding chapter over it. The Imperium has enough problems with infighting as is and I don't think it wants to add anymore by dragging up the darkness of the heresy (thus spilling that bit of dark lore best hidden from their own citizens and causing faith in the Astartes to diminish) on-top of causing conflict with a vaunted first-founding chapter (Months of Shame shenanigans all over again only possibly worse.)

the reason for avoiding DA gene seed is offically they're secrective and rumors of "legion building"

Nothing most likely

considering that like something like 10 percent of all space marines are made from dark angel geneseed thats like 100,000 odd marines they're gonna have to declare traitor

the unforgiven would obviously lose but i imagine the results of the fighting would be absolutely catastrophic for the imperium

And really whats the point? there burning heretics and smashing skulls for the god-emperor

 Psienesis wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The number of incidents where the DA have acted against Imperial interests can be counted on one hand. The number of times the DA have wiped out some Xeno/Chaotic/Heretic problem cannot even be guessed at.

In the balance, I think the DA have more than proven themselves.

The number of times they have been documented to have acted to find Fallen rather than pursue chaos or act against Imperial interests is documented multiple times. To assume that is the only times they have done it isn't accurate.

But it is far, far, FAR fewer times than the combat-actions they have participated in and acquitted themselves well in. After all, of the DA, only a very small portion of the Chapter even knows what the Fallen are. When they withdraw to go somewhere else, they aren't told why. That's for the Inner Circle to know.

So the DA, and all their Successors, are going all over the galaxy, doing Space Mariney things, with, like, 99.99% of their total numbers knowing *nothing at all* of their "dark secret". So... in the end... it's been 10,000 years. What the original DA may have done in the Heresy is... kind of irrelevant, actually. Ever since then, the DA have pretty much been model Space Marines. None of the living DA, or any of their Successors, had a part in the Heresy, so they're attempting to atone for a sin that isn't their's in the first place.

I agree with this response. They have proven themselves loyal, no matter what happened once upon a time.

The idea that they were "going with the flow" is one I don't really agree with, looking at the HH novel "The Unremembered Empire"--it looks to me like the Lion was totally loyal from the beginning.

Now, the INNER CIRCLE...that's a different question. Maybe the Inquisition would have an issue with them, if not with the Chapter as a whole.

problem is the inner circle consists of the most exaulted memebrs of the unforgiven. going after them would be met with hostility from the entire unforgiven. I suspect if it got out there'd be some dissappointed maybe even angry language directed at the dark angels. followed by the high lords tasking the dark angels to "begin a crusade of pennance against the fallen. only then can they be forgiven" which is pretty much what they're doing ANYWAY

Would the Inquisition be interested in getting their hands on Luther perhaps?

What would the Inquisition think of the Dark Angels relationship with the Watchers in the Dark?

I don't think it is one secret that the Dark Angels are trying to keep from the Inquisition.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
I've always thought their secret was less "Half of us turned bad" but more "Half of us turned bad, and it may not have been the half you thought..." and now they hunt down those who might reveal that actually the 'Loyal' Dark Angels were traitors who realised which way the tide was turning...

Yep. And only the traitor legions repainted their armor...