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This is something that my gaming group have come up with:

(Wounds + Attacks) x Bravery = Points Value.

Where attacks are D6, count them as 3.

Magic users: (Wounds + Attacks) x Bravery x2 = Points Value.

Swarms: (Wounds + Attacks) x 1/2 Bravery rounded up = Points Value.

It seems balanced so far.

Please give it a go and let us know the results.

Thanks.

Edited to add swarms and magic users.

It could work, but look at nurglings. Are they worth 90 pts each? Im not familiar with the other point values, but...

Edit: upon further inspection they have some very interesting special rules vastly increasing their worth. Ill write some lists and play some games using your system and find out if this is a good standard for pickup games.

We haven't tried swarms, hence we are asking you guys to test it for us.

You come back with more info, we'll fit it into our system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cheers buddy.

If you used those rules and said units that are swarms divide by 2

I really like Avian's method of costing units:

Movement x Wounds x Attacks + (Bravery - 4) + (5 - to-hit roll) + (5 - to-wound roll) + (5 - save)

Been messing around with it a bit, and the costs it comes up with seem pretty fair - Grimgor works out to 149 points, Night Goblins with spears work out to 5 points each. It's a bit of work to figure out costs for each model, but all you need is a simple spreadsheet to fix that issue. Now if only I knew how to make those...

_Tim?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
I really like Avian's method of costing units:

Movement x Wounds x Attacks + (Bravery - 4) + (5 - to-hit roll) + (5 - to-wound roll) + (5 - save)

Been messing around with it a bit, and the costs it comes up with seem pretty fair - Grimgor works out to 149 points, Night Goblins with spears work out to 5 points each. It's a bit of work to figure out costs for each model, but all you need is a simple spreadsheet to fix that issue. Now if only I knew how to make those...

_Tim?

That's a bit long winded isn't it?

A Night Goblin with Spear is 4 points in our system. Far easier to work out our way and it's a similar result.

In regards to Swarms...

(Wounds + Attacks) x 1/2 Bravery rounded up = Points Value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP EDIT: Magic users and Swarms added.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
I really like Avian's method of costing units:

Movement x Wounds x Attacks + (Bravery - 4) + (5 - to-hit roll) + (5 - to-wound roll) + (5 - save)

I think I prefer Movement + Wounds / rend x (Attacks + Bravery) - (Special rules entries x letters in name)

But seriously, OP's system of (W's + A's) x Bravery seems to work good. Have already seen it elsewhere besides this thread.

Puscifer wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
I really like Avian's method of costing units:

Movement x Wounds x Attacks + (Bravery - 4) + (5 - to-hit roll) + (5 - to-wound roll) + (5 - save)

Been messing around with it a bit, and the costs it comes up with seem pretty fair - Grimgor works out to 149 points, Night Goblins with spears work out to 5 points each. It's a bit of work to figure out costs for each model, but all you need is a simple spreadsheet to fix that issue. Now if only I knew how to make those...

_Tim?

That's a bit long winded isn't it?

A Night Goblin with Spear is 4 points in our system. Far easier to work out our way and it's a similar result.

In regards to Swarms...

(Wounds + Attacks) x 1/2 Bravery rounded up = Points Value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP EDIT: Magic users and Swarms added.

Yeah, in retrospect, it really is. Do like your system better. Although, I'm getting the cost of Night Goblins with spears to be 8 points, since with your formula you get this: (1+1)x4=8. Doesn't make that big a difference though, since Goblins and Orcs and actually a lot close in effectiveness now.

_Tim?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
I really like Avian's method of costing units:

Movement x Wounds x Attacks + (Bravery - 4) + (5 - to-hit roll) + (5 - to-wound roll) + (5 - save)

Been messing around with it a bit, and the costs it comes up with seem pretty fair - Grimgor works out to 149 points, Night Goblins with spears work out to 5 points each. It's a bit of work to figure out costs for each model, but all you need is a simple spreadsheet to fix that issue. Now if only I knew how to make those...

_Tim?

That's a bit long winded isn't it?

A Night Goblin with Spear is 4 points in our system. Far easier to work out our way and it's a similar result.

In regards to Swarms...

(Wounds + Attacks) x 1/2 Bravery rounded up = Points Value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP EDIT: Magic users and Swarms added.

Yeah, in retrospect, it really is. Do like your system better. Although, I'm getting the cost of Night Goblins with spears to be 8 points, since with your formula you get this: (1+1)x4=8. Doesn't make that big a difference though, since Goblins and Orcs and actually a lot close in effectiveness now.

_Tim?

I've been number crunching for nearly a week, mistakes happen :-p

Hit a snag with Undead though. Trying to sort it out now.

The only problem with (wounds + attacks) x bravery that I can see is the fact it doesn't take into account damage and/or rend. This disparity can be seen on characters pretty easily: In that system, a Dreadlord with an Exile Blade and Tyrant shield costs 84 points, whereas one with a chillblade costs 66 points. The chillblade, I'm pretty confident in saying, is the better option. And whilst it may be only marginally so, or even equal, it's certainly not worth being 18 points less. I definitely think that damage and/or rend should be factored into this formula.

Wouldn't Average Wounds Generated be a better metric to use than Attacks?

I've been dabbling with this today and the (Wounds + Attacks) x Bravery = Points Value method seems pretty good. I created a more crunchy system, but my values are coming in close the the simpler WAxB method.

To give really accurate values you'd have to factor in all the special rules, but getting a baseline can be done with the numbers we have for the model's stats. I started by separating the calculations for Move/Wounds/Bravery/Save from the weapon stats since MWBS serve to provide stats for the model as a "weapons platform" to indicate how quickly the model can move across the table (in terms of speed and survival) to deliver its "attacks payload." I used the below calculation:

=(Wounds+(6-Save)/2)*Bravery+(Move-5)

For the weapon profiles I used the following formula (only looking at Melee weapons so far):

=(Range-1)/4+Goblin Damage Ratio+Rend

I created a stat I called the "Goblin Damage Ratio" which compares how likely a weapon will cause damage compared to a Goblin Slasha. Calculated by the following formula:

=((Attacks*(7-To Hit)/6)*((7-To Wound)/6)*Damage)/0.111111111111111

0.111111111111111 is the probability of a goblin doing one damage with a Slasha.

Whatever system the community settles on is not going to be perfect, as long as it gets majority of your models in the area where they should be. I feel that after general points are agreed upon, the community should give feedback on point adjustments for certain models, & rules.

(I.e. Summoning models, range vs CC units, etc).

 bbb wrote:
I've been dabbling with this today and the (Wounds + Attacks) x Bravery = Points Value method seems pretty good. I created a more crunchy system, but my values are coming in close the the simpler WAxB method.

To give really accurate values you'd have to factor in all the special rules, but getting a baseline can be done with the numbers we have for the model's stats. I started by separating the calculations for Move/Wounds/Bravery/Save from the weapon stats since MWBS serve to provide stats for the model as a "weapons platform" to indicate how quickly the model can move across the table (in terms of speed and survival) to deliver its "attacks payload." I used the below calculation:

=(Wounds+(6-Save)/2)*Bravery+(Move-5)

For the weapon profiles I used the following formula (only looking at Melee weapons so far):

=(Range-1)/4+Goblin Damage Ratio+Rend

I created a stat I called the "Goblin Damage Ratio" which compares how likely a weapon will cause damage compared to a Goblin Slasha. Calculated by the following formula:

=((Attacks*(7-To Hit)/6)*((7-To Wound)/6)*Damage)/0.111111111111111

0.111111111111111 is the probability of a goblin doing one damage with a Slasha.

Thank you for this.

It's been a great help.

 bbb wrote:

I created a stat I called the "Goblin Damage Ratio" which compares how likely a weapon will cause damage compared to a Goblin Slasha.

This is a fantastic idea.

Would it be possible to come up with a formula based on how likely a model is to be wounded by a goblin slasha and that factor that, plus the number of wounds it has, plus its damage (as above) to create a base points value? You'd then add on extra points for heroic abilities, special rules etc as people see fit.

Found this version on /TG/
[(defense+offense)*bravery]/5
If the unit is a hero, monster or warmachine multiply the result by 2.

Defense is calculated like this:
wounds * save value
The save value is based on the chance to actually get a save, from 1 to 6.

Offense is calculated like this:
[(average + rend) * damage] * attacks
The average is between to hit and to wound, again based on the chance from 1 to 6.
Rend is just the rend value, but positive (so -1 is a 1, -2 is a 2, etc.)
If a value is D3, D6, etc. you take the average result and round it up (so D6 attacks = 4)

---

All right, so now lets take an empire state troop as an example and see how this works in practice:

The state troop has 1 wound and a 5+ save (chance 2/6 to save).
The state troop's sword has 1 attack, 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound (average 3/6), 0 rend and 1 damage.
The state troop has 5 bravery.

State troop's defense: 2*1 = 2
State troop's offense: [(3+0)*1]*1 = 3
State troop's point cost: [(2+3)*5]/5 = 5

So after all of this calculation we know that the state troop is worth 5pts.


I think a mix of this and your version should be good. And something for ranged need to be accounted for aswell. After that you have the baseframework and you can then tweak individual units that are op/up

Honestly, finding a points system isn't going to work. Not unless you have people die hard calculating for every single faction and can find an actual, suitable formula for what = what in point value.

Wounds seems to be the easiest, least convoluted way right now (IMHO) to figure out how much space a unit will take in your army, is easier to wrap ones head around and is FAR more likely to be universally accepted as an army building tool than, say, having to take non-GW staff's word that the points the internet has come up with are reasonable and balanced to every faction (with a comprehensive and balanced formula).

I would say that this latest method posted is probably the one that is closest to determining somewhat balanced point costs across armies. I can see the company themselves using a very similar equation to point cost units in the past, albeit with different stats.

Bit of work to figure out each unit though, and thats before special rules and magic.

I would love it if the community could compile a database of all the models in the game. Since the rules are free I don't think it would be an issue. Then individuals or groups could easily apply whatever metrics they wanted to try and generate points costs.

When calculating unit points I think it would make sense to calculate the minimum points cost for a unit (since we're always given the minimum unit size) by factoring in the units stats first, then adjusting based on special rules then divide by that minimum unit size to get the adjusted per model cost.

I'm actually really coming around to the idea of GW not providing points or army building rules. Clubs and tournaments would usually come up with their own house rules to adjust for the way GW made their rules. GW has said, we will sell you models and give you the rules for playing games with them, you decide amung yourselves how to decide what you and your opponent are allowed to put on the table.

I've been thinking if I ever made a game I'd want to have a yearly option to revise points costs to keep the meta fresh and work towards optimum pricing. The rules for what each model does on the table would be the same, but their cost might be different.

 bbb wrote:
I would love it if the community could compile a database of all the models in the game. Since the rules are free I don't think it would be an issue. Then individuals or groups could easily apply whatever metrics they wanted to try and generate points costs.

When calculating unit points I think it would make sense to calculate the minimum points cost for a unit (since we're always given the minimum unit size) by factoring in the units stats first, then adjusting based on special rules then divide by that minimum unit size to get the adjusted per model cost.

I'm actually really coming around to the idea of GW not providing points or army building rules. Clubs and tournaments would usually come up with their own house rules to adjust for the way GW made their rules. GW has said, we will sell you models and give you the rules for playing games with them, you decide amung yourselves how to decide what you and your opponent are allowed to put on the table.

I've been thinking if I ever made a game I'd want to have a yearly option to revise points costs to keep the meta fresh and work towards optimum pricing. The rules for what each model does on the table would be the same, but their cost might be different.

The only downside to 'house rules' is you can never ever ensure each event you go too with be the same. Will each event consider your army to be priced differently? Why? And by how much? More? Less?

This is the issue with people struggling to make a 'fan assessment'. At least with official points, even if we disagree with their costs, we have no room to argue as the rules are official.

So if I go to one event, and the consider my standard Orc unit to be worth 8 points a model, for example. But the next event in a different town considers Orcs to be worth 12 points a model, because of THEIR math. No thank you.

20 pt Skeletons? 20 pt Skinks?

No thanks.

Okay, hadn't looked at those armies yet. Will have to rework things to reflect undead/demonic units...

 bbb wrote:
Okay, hadn't looked at those armies yet. Will have to rework things to reflect undead/demonic units...

Yeah, admittedly the system works very well for most books, well enough that I'd consider using it. But, armies with widespread Bravery 10 are at a huge disadvantage.

Okay, I revised my formulas and end up with Zombies costing 10 points versus a goblin at 7.

Changed model cost formula to be able to factor in no Save and gave the zombies a 7 value for save to zero it out in the calculations

=(C26+(7-E26)/2)*D26+(B26-5)

The special rules are where you'd have to really play with them to iron out the points.

I have my own method that I have developed.

The best one so far is chance to hit× chance to wound+ attacks+rend+damage× (chance to save+wounds)×(bravery)/15

So an orc would be 3×3+(1+1+1)×(2+1)×(5)/15=12

12 points for an orc is not bad.
similarly, an ogre comes out to 40 points

Try it

Thanks
austin

I intend to just stick with wounds = points method. It's cleaner and less math hammer intensive. The sooner I get models on the table, the better, without having to have my opponents (or force myself) to do hours of math just to find what COULD be fair prices for units.

So how much of a difference does the range of a melee weapon make? Is a 2" range significantly better than a 1" range? Trying to determine how to cost for that.

Melevolence wrote:
I intend to just stick with wounds = points method. It's cleaner and less math hammer intensive. The sooner I get models on the table, the better, without having to have my opponents (or force myself) to do hours of math just to find what COULD be fair prices for units.

Not to sound rude, but that's terrible if one player is playing a horde style army.
1 wound of goblins is not the same as 1 wound of black guard.
5+ save Bravery 4, with a single 5+/4+ from the goblins
is not in the same ballpark as
4+ save, bravery 7, 2 attacks 3+/3+ rend 1, re-roll 1's to hit

Wounds put them the same.

Or look at fanatics.
no save, 1 wound, D6 attacks, 3+/4+ rend 2, D3 damage


Balancing by wounds really only works when people are pairing up against armies of roughly the same "eliteness".

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Melevolence wrote:
I intend to just stick with wounds = points method. It's cleaner and less math hammer intensive. The sooner I get models on the table, the better, without having to have my opponents (or force myself) to do hours of math just to find what COULD be fair prices for units.

Not to sound rude, but that's terrible if one player is playing a horde style army.
1 wound of goblins is not the same as 1 wound of black guard.
5+ save Bravery 4, with a single 5+/4+ from the goblins
is not in the same ballpark as
4+ save, bravery 7, 2 attacks 3+/3+ rend 1, re-roll 1's to hit

Wounds put them the same.

Or look at fanatics.
no save, 1 wound, D6 attacks, 3+/4+ rend 2, D3 damage


Balancing by wounds really only works when people are pairing up against armies of roughly the same "eliteness".

I will definitely agree that using just wounds is not the best way to balance 2 armies. However, complicated formulas are horrible for pick-up games and will not be adopted by the community as a whole. What you will get instead, is group A using this formula, group B using that formula and with no consensus, it will become impossible to develop in-depth tactics to share with group C (i.e. the interwebs).

The goal, IMO, should be to create a very simple system (i.e. only uses only 3-4 factors to calculate) to create "baseline" point level. After that, your individual group/TOs can modify further.

My original thinking was a simple Wounds x Bravery.
In the example HawaiiMatt uses, that would put the Gobo @ 4pts & the Black Guard @ 7pts. This keeps the Elite stuff Elite and the Hordey stuff Hordey. Is it perfect? Of course not. With this system, a Saurus Warrior and a Skink both cost 10pts. But it is simple and gives a rough average.

I like what i see going on in here.