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I've been putting together a list for my dark elder (coven) army and I want to keep it true to the DE fluff by just using these units and maybe a few allied Wyche or kabalite bands. But I find that to do a lot of the cool things dark elder are famous for, eg; Deepstriking out of nowhere, lightning fast strikes and so on. but it seems to do this you need to either ally an autarch or get very luck on the warlord table.

So this got me thinking how many people find that they want to make a nicely themed list with all the cool story they want but if they want to make it solid on the table they need to sacrifice this for units that are strong in the more competitive meta?

Or

To simplify further, is it a black and white choice between the units you want and the units that win? or can you have your cake and eat it too?

curious on your thoughts? Maybe I'm just too picky

There are a couple of different ways of looking at it:
Personally, I'll either bring a cake (super-fluffy list, no concern if it wins) or a hammer (tuned, competative list, for serious games), depending on who I'm facing. I won't try and hammer-ify the cake list, and if the hammer list is cake-y it's mostly by accident. Of course there are lists inbetween, the gimicky combo-lists, but that's more built around a specific mechanic than a fluff angle.

Another way would be to make the extra parts "feel" like their part of the main army, by conversions or counts-as. You could take an Autarch, but convert it to look like an Archon, with Dire Avengers converted from Incubi or something for the troops. Paint them to match the rest of the army, rather than feeling like a sore thumb (obviously, make it clear to your opponent beforehand what is what).

Third option would be a Dark-Eldar-ified Comms Relay (attached to an Aegis or a Bastion or whatever).

Not bad ideas I do like conversions, but that would say you take one or the other. So it's nice to know I'm not the only one.

I don't know about DE, but as IG I always go with fluff. I can't win anyway, so why bother hammering it?

When it comes to C:SM it seems that fluffy options for most chapters are the competitive choices, too. Which works out okay for my BT - ObSec Land Raiders, and min/maxed Crusaders are fun.

That's the good thing with Dark Angels.
The fluffy lists ARE the competive lists - or rather the discrepancy is really low. The way the Legio-- Chapter is set up allows for good builds that are very true to the fluff, from basic Lions Blades over pure Ravenwing lists to mixed wing lists.

So yes, I CAN have my cake AND eat it! Now if only I'd suck less...

I think some armies have it better than others. Tau for instance are quite easy to keep hammery whilst still having a story. Eldar is less so. IMO

What SM lists find it hard to keep fluffy and competitive? I can't think of too many, if any

Eldar are actually very good these days. Saim-Hann bike spam and Illydian wraith host are both solid, fluffy lists.

SM tac squads, even in a demi-co are still just OK. Most of the heavy lifting in marine lists comes from other units. This goes against the fluff, where the tacticals should be doing most of the work, with support from other elements.

I like to build a competitive army/list, then write fluff to justify it.

 Quanar wrote:
There are a couple of different ways of looking at it:
Personally, I'll either bring a cake (super-fluffy list, no concern if it wins) or a hammer (tuned, competative list, for serious games), depending on who I'm facing. I won't try and hammer-ify the cake list, and if the hammer list is cake-y it's mostly by accident. Of course there are lists inbetween, the gimicky combo-lists, but that's more built around a specific mechanic than a fluff angle.

Another way would be to make the extra parts "feel" like their part of the main army, by conversions or counts-as. You could take an Autarch, but convert it to look like an Archon, with Dire Avengers converted from Incubi or something for the troops. Paint them to match the rest of the army, rather than feeling like a sore thumb (obviously, make it clear to your opponent beforehand what is what).

Third option would be a Dark-Eldar-ified Comms Relay (attached to an Aegis or a Bastion or whatever).

Where would I find the points for a comms relay? Data sheets in the rule book but can't find points like in the old one. I think it's something that could fit in my list

You would need a copy of Stronghold Assault.

 vorrax-ghul wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
There are a couple of different ways of looking at it:
Personally, I'll either bring a cake (super-fluffy list, no concern if it wins) or a hammer (tuned, competative list, for serious games), depending on who I'm facing. I won't try and hammer-ify the cake list, and if the hammer list is cake-y it's mostly by accident. Of course there are lists inbetween, the gimicky combo-lists, but that's more built around a specific mechanic than a fluff angle.

Another way would be to make the extra parts "feel" like their part of the main army, by conversions or counts-as. You could take an Autarch, but convert it to look like an Archon, with Dire Avengers converted from Incubi or something for the troops. Paint them to match the rest of the army, rather than feeling like a sore thumb (obviously, make it clear to your opponent beforehand what is what).

Third option would be a Dark-Eldar-ified Comms Relay (attached to an Aegis or a Bastion or whatever).

Where would I find the points for a comms relay? Data sheets in the rule book but can't find points like in the old one. I think it's something that could fit in my list

Stronghold Assault

Cheers I'll get right on that

It's pretty much impossible to do both i find, I built a necron army specifically for tournaments and play guard for the cake as you put it, and daemonkin for something in between.

I play Chaos, so it's a special kind of hobby hell...

At the LGS, if I bring Daemons, I'm automatically accused of bringing an OP/WaaC's list. If want to use Chaos Marines, even my fluffy cake is mouldy and falls apart.

If you already own the models then you can make lots of lists. But if it comes down to buying new things always good for the good stuff. GW prices are to high, no point in spending lots of money on crappy stuff

I use Marneus Calgar with a 1st Company Task Force w/ Sternguard Smashfucker, a Gladius Strike Force, a Skyhammer Annihilation Force and a Venerable Dreadnought Squadron with pods and bawkses to suit.

Fluffy and works well.
Ally in Blood Angels for Sanguinor-Centurion Deathstar because Purge the Alien is fun to abuse.

Dman137 wrote:
If you already own the models then you can make lots of lists. But if it comes down to buying new things always good for the good stuff. GW prices are to high, no point in spending lots of money on crappy stuff

I don't always follow this. Yes it's expensive and i can't buy everything i want but i don't just go and buy the best thing. I buy something I'll enjoy modeling and painting, usually I spend so much time in the codex looking at ways to make a fluffy list that will win more than just time to time. So i want the model i buy to actually fit in with my list. But i guess that's just personal preference. I see what you mean though.