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I made these changes and Faction Tactics to Kill Team: Heralds of Ruin, but I could assume that they'd work with the regular game, as well.

What do you CSM guys think?

I like i for the most part, but a couple things:

1) cultists are barred from certain upgrades and most of that makes sense, but then, they also need their own upgrades. Unless of course the LatD army list from IA 13 could be converted to a Kill Team list? It just seems like you dislike cultists

2) Instead of allowing only the legions that were fully devoted to one god to take marks, rather restrict those legions to taking their 'patron god's' mark only? I may have misread, but it would appear you only want World Eaters to take the mark of Khorne, Death Guard to take Mark of Nurgle, etc. and if that is your intent I disagree; While the World Eaters, for instance are composed only of Khorne worshipers, all worshipers of Khorne are not also World Eaters.

 Powerfisting wrote:
I like i for the most part, but a couple things:

1) cultists are barred from certain upgrades and most of that makes sense, but then, they also need their own upgrades. Unless of course the LatD army list from IA 13 could be converted to a Kill Team list? It just seems like you dislike cultists

2) Instead of allowing only the legions that were fully devoted to one god to take marks, rather restrict those legions to taking their 'patron god's' mark only? I may have misread, but it would appear you only want World Eaters to take the mark of Khorne, Death Guard to take Mark of Nurgle, etc. and if that is your intent I disagree; While the World Eaters, for instance are composed only of Khorne worshipers, all worshipers of Khorne are not also World Eaters.

Thank you for your answer

1) I don't hate Cultists, I love them a bunch My problem with them here is that it wouldn't make much sense for them to be able to do the same things as the Marines can. I mean, cultists are cool, but let's not fool ourselves - They are cannonfodder.

2) What I meant by the "Lost to..." rules are that those armies can only choose a Mark from that particular god, or not have a Mark at all, since, e.g., World Eaters have sold themselves to Khorne, but that doesn't mean that they have recieved his Mark, or even accept him as their patron. All other factions can choose any Mark, or none, if the like to.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
2) What I meant by the "Lost to..." rules are that those armies can only choose a Mark from that particular god, or not have a Mark at all, since, e.g., World Eaters have sold themselves to Khorne, but that doesn't mean that they have recieved his Mark, or even accept him as their patron. All other factions can choose any Mark, or none, if the like to.

Ok. That's what I though. I noticed a lot of ideas from the HH army lists made their way into your rules (which is not a bad thing at all). Had you considered thematic drawbacks a la Horus Heresy as well? they might not gel well with Kill Team rules, but I always prefer them as a way to immerse both players in the fluff and crunch, if that makes sense.

I really like these rules, if they were the actual rules for Legions I would so start a Death Guard or World Eaters army

 Powerfisting wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
2) What I meant by the "Lost to..." rules are that those armies can only choose a Mark from that particular god, or not have a Mark at all, since, e.g., World Eaters have sold themselves to Khorne, but that doesn't mean that they have recieved his Mark, or even accept him as their patron. All other factions can choose any Mark, or none, if the like to.

Ok. That's what I though. I noticed a lot of ideas from the HH army lists made their way into your rules (which is not a bad thing at all). Had you considered thematic drawbacks a la Horus Heresy as well? they might not gel well with Kill Team rules, but I always prefer them as a way to immerse both players in the fluff and crunch, if that makes sense.

Oh, I love drawbacks in rules, and would frankly love it if all rules had that, but because they don't, I didn't want to throw more into it than is already there - Level with me here, it's not like Chaos has it easy already.

I have added the minus to BS for World Eaters, though, and Nostraman Blood could be added. I've also added Fear to the entire army for the simple fact that Chaos Marines gotta be the most terrifying thing to face, of all the horrors in 40k. Also for the Fear defense.

Also, can I get your word on the Marks? I personally despise the Nurgle Mark, mainly because I don't see why Nurgle would make your body even more tough, but rather make it have more surplurflous meat, fat, bile and such. I like the Fantasy one more, the one that reduces To Hit rolls made against the unit instead. That would, in a sweet and ironic way, make Flamers more effective at removing Nurglite units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, I had an idea. An additional Warp Psychic table, Corrumancy. It should be a standard Psychic table that only Chaos Marines can get access to, and is based around boosting infantry and support.

Warp Surge - Primaris.
- Warp Charges: 1
- Blessing.
- Target: Psyker Unit.
- The unit may take 1d6 T test: For each succesful, you may regenerate one wound to the unit. These models may only be model lost from the unit in the battle.

Weapons of Corruption - 1.
- Warp Charges: 1-3
- Blessing.
- Target: Psyker Unit and Psyker.
- Choose a weapon type in the unit (ranged, melee). If succesful, the unit gets the following effects until the end of your next turn.
- 1 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit with the weapon.
- 2 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound with the weapon.
- 3 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound with the weapon. Additionally, each weapon may shoot one additional shot/do one additional attack.

Cursed Land - 2
- Warp Charges: 1-2
- Malediction.
- Target: None.
- Place a Large Blast (7'' inches Blast if two Charges) within 12'' of the Psyker. All enemy models moving through the blast marker must take a Difficult and Dangerous Test, even if the model could originally ignore Terrain. Friendly models in the blast gain a 4+ Cover save, and models Deep Striking entirely within the Blast marker may re-roll the Scatter dice. The Blast stays until the end of your next turn.

Wake the Warp - 3
- Warp Charges: 2
- Malediction.
- Target: Enemy unit.
- The enemy unit must make a Ld check with a -1 modifier (models with ATSKNF ignore this modifier). For every point the enemy unit fails by, the unit loses one random model, regardless of wounds and saves. In your next Psychic phase, the unit must roll this test again, with a -2 modifier, next again with a -3 modifier and so on, until the unit succesfully passes the test. Additionally, as long as the unit has failed the Ld check in their turn, the unit takes Fear tests on a -2 modifier.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Powerfisting wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
2) What I meant by the "Lost to..." rules are that those armies can only choose a Mark from that particular god, or not have a Mark at all, since, e.g., World Eaters have sold themselves to Khorne, but that doesn't mean that they have recieved his Mark, or even accept him as their patron. All other factions can choose any Mark, or none, if the like to.

Ok. That's what I though. I noticed a lot of ideas from the HH army lists made their way into your rules (which is not a bad thing at all). Had you considered thematic drawbacks a la Horus Heresy as well? they might not gel well with Kill Team rules, but I always prefer them as a way to immerse both players in the fluff and crunch, if that makes sense.

Oh, I love drawbacks in rules, and would frankly love it if all rules had that, but because they don't, I didn't want to throw more into it than is already there - Level with me here, it's not like Chaos has it easy already.

I have added the minus to BS for World Eaters, though, and Nostraman Blood could be added. I've also added Fear to the entire army for the simple fact that Chaos Marines gotta be the most terrifying thing to face, of all the horrors in 40k. Also for the Fear defense.

Also, can I get your word on the Marks? I personally despise the Nurgle Mark, mainly because I don't see why Nurgle would make your body even more tough, but rather make it have more surplurflous meat, fat, bile and such. I like the Fantasy one more, the one that reduces To Hit rolls made against the unit instead. That would, in a sweet and ironic way, make Flamers more effective at removing Nurglite units.

I don't mind nurgle units having a toughness boost, personally and it doesn't bother me nearly as much as bikes being T5. I just wish Toughness boosts wouldn't affect ID thresholds. But I do see where you come from; -1 to hit would represent a lot of shots just kinda... getting stuck in their targets rather than hitting anything vital, which is a lot like missing, I guess?

Khorne and Slaaensh work for me, in both the daemonic and marine forms.

But I've never been torn by anything more than the way Tzeentch irks me. Invul. saves are cool and fluffy, but the crunch doesn't work for me at all. I've actually been writing my own version of 40k for a couple months now and I cannot get over representing Tzeentch properly. A broad invul save/ improved save is clean and easy to point cost via comparison and invuln rerolls of static saves are equally easy to objectify and point- cost, but on the TT it just feels like a weak cop-- out to me.

And then to me at least, there is this other issue where the mark of Tzeentch is something that could potentially represent a broad range of units, but 1K Sons need to be more than marines with invun saves. I'm so torn with this that I almost want to make 1K Sons their own unit in my own game and also have normal marines be upgradable to have the MoT so that 1K Sons have representation and marines that happen to have the MoT but are not piles of dust piloting power armor suits also have representation. / rant

So, about marks, I like Khorne and Slaanesh, I'm ok with Nurgle, but trying to represent Tzeentch gives me heart palpitations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Wise Dane wrote:


BTW, I had an idea. An additional Warp Psychic table, Corrumancy. It should be a standard Psychic table that only Chaos Marines can get access to, and is based around boosting infantry and support.

Warp Surge - Primaris.
- Warp Charges: 1
- Blessing.
- Target: Psyker Unit.
- The unit may take 1d6 T test: For each succesful, you may regenerate one wound to the unit. These models may only be model lost from the unit in the battle.

Weapons of Corruption - 1.
- Warp Charges: 1-3
- Blessing.
- Target: Psyker Unit and Psyker.
- Choose a weapon type in the unit (ranged, melee). If succesful, the unit gets the following effects until the end of your next turn.
- 1 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit with the weapon.
- 2 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound with the weapon.
- 3 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound with the weapon. Additionally, each weapon may shoot one additional shot/do one additional attack.

Cursed Land - 2
- Warp Charges: 1-2
- Malediction.
- Target: None.
- Place a Large Blast (7'' inches Blast if two Charges) within 12'' of the Psyker. All enemy models moving through the blast marker must take a Difficult and Dangerous Test, even if the model could originally ignore Terrain. Friendly models in the blast gain a 4+ Cover save, and models Deep Striking entirely within the Blast marker may re-roll the Scatter dice. The Blast stays until the end of your next turn.

Wake the Warp - 3
- Warp Charges: 2
- Malediction.
- Target: Enemy unit.
- The enemy unit must make a Ld check with a -1 modifier (models with ATSKNF ignore this modifier). For every point the enemy unit fails by, the unit loses one random model, regardless of wounds and saves. In your next Psychic phase, the unit must roll this test again, with a -2 modifier, next again with a -3 modifier and so on, until the unit succesfully passes the test. Additionally, as long as the unit has failed the Ld check in their turn, the unit takes Fear tests on a -2 modifier.

That seems cool; Kind of what malefic Daemonology should have been, rather than "here, ML 1 Imperial psyker, have a couple free units of daemons." Where did you come up with the name for it?

 Powerfisting wrote:

Spoiler:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Powerfisting wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
2) What I meant by the "Lost to..." rules are that those armies can only choose a Mark from that particular god, or not have a Mark at all, since, e.g., World Eaters have sold themselves to Khorne, but that doesn't mean that they have recieved his Mark, or even accept him as their patron. All other factions can choose any Mark, or none, if the like to.

Ok. That's what I though. I noticed a lot of ideas from the HH army lists made their way into your rules (which is not a bad thing at all). Had you considered thematic drawbacks a la Horus Heresy as well? they might not gel well with Kill Team rules, but I always prefer them as a way to immerse both players in the fluff and crunch, if that makes sense.

Oh, I love drawbacks in rules, and would frankly love it if all rules had that, but because they don't, I didn't want to throw more into it than is already there - Level with me here, it's not like Chaos has it easy already.

I have added the minus to BS for World Eaters, though, and Nostraman Blood could be added. I've also added Fear to the entire army for the simple fact that Chaos Marines gotta be the most terrifying thing to face, of all the horrors in 40k. Also for the Fear defense.

Also, can I get your word on the Marks? I personally despise the Nurgle Mark, mainly because I don't see why Nurgle would make your body even more tough, but rather make it have more surplurflous meat, fat, bile and such. I like the Fantasy one more, the one that reduces To Hit rolls made against the unit instead. That would, in a sweet and ironic way, make Flamers more effective at removing Nurglite units.

I don't mind nurgle units having a toughness boost, personally and it doesn't bother me nearly as much as bikes being T5. I just wish Toughness boosts wouldn't affect ID thresholds. But I do see where you come from; -1 to hit would represent a lot of shots just kinda... getting stuck in their targets rather than hitting anything vital, which is a lot like missing, I guess?

Khorne and Slaaensh work for me, in both the daemonic and marine forms.

But I've never been torn by anything more than the way Tzeentch irks me. Invul. saves are cool and fluffy, but the crunch doesn't work for me at all. I've actually been writing my own version of 40k for a couple months now and I cannot get over representing Tzeentch properly. A broad invul save/ improved save is clean and easy to point cost via comparison and invuln rerolls of static saves are equally easy to objectify and point- cost, but on the TT it just feels like a weak cop-- out to me.

And then to me at least, there is this other issue where the mark of Tzeentch is something that could potentially represent a broad range of units, but 1K Sons need to be more than marines with invun saves. I'm so torn with this that I almost want to make 1K Sons their own unit in my own game and also have normal marines be upgradable to have the MoT so that 1K Sons have representation and marines that happen to have the MoT but are not piles of dust piloting power armor suits also have representation. / rant

So, about marks, I like Khorne and Slaanesh, I'm ok with Nurgle, but trying to represent Tzeentch gives me heart palpitations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Wise Dane wrote:


BTW, I had an idea. An additional Warp Psychic table, Corrumancy. It should be a standard Psychic table that only Chaos Marines can get access to, and is based around boosting infantry and support.

Warp Surge - Primaris.
- Warp Charges: 1
- Blessing.
- Target: Psyker Unit.
- The unit may take 1d6 T test: For each succesful, you may regenerate one wound to the unit. These models may only be model lost from the unit in the battle.

Weapons of Corruption - 1.
- Warp Charges: 1-3
- Blessing.
- Target: Psyker Unit and Psyker.
- Choose a weapon type in the unit (ranged, melee). If succesful, the unit gets the following effects until the end of your next turn.
- 1 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit with the weapon.
- 2 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound with the weapon.
- 3 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound with the weapon. Additionally, each weapon may shoot one additional shot/do one additional attack.

Cursed Land - 2
- Warp Charges: 1-2
- Malediction.
- Target: None.
- Place a Large Blast (7'' inches Blast if two Charges) within 12'' of the Psyker. All enemy models moving through the blast marker must take a Difficult and Dangerous Test, even if the model could originally ignore Terrain. Friendly models in the blast gain a 4+ Cover save, and models Deep Striking entirely within the Blast marker may re-roll the Scatter dice. The Blast stays until the end of your next turn.

Wake the Warp - 3
- Warp Charges: 2
- Malediction.
- Target: Enemy unit.
- The enemy unit must make a Ld check with a -1 modifier (models with ATSKNF ignore this modifier). For every point the enemy unit fails by, the unit loses one random model, regardless of wounds and saves. In your next Psychic phase, the unit must roll this test again, with a -2 modifier, next again with a -3 modifier and so on, until the unit succesfully passes the test. Additionally, as long as the unit has failed the Ld check in their turn, the unit takes Fear tests on a -2 modifier.

That seems cool; Kind of what malefic Daemonology should have been, rather than "here, ML 1 Imperial psyker, have a couple free units of daemons." Where did you come up with the name for it?

Well, I tried to translate to Corrupt to latin, but it came out as Corrupio, so... Curro + Mancy xD

Invul. Saves are really also a gripe for me - Alongside FNP rolls, they are my most hated rolls, because they just ignore good rolls with no thought.

On the account of Tzeentch Mark, I think the combination of BS 2 Snap Shots and AdWill would be fair. It isn't as generally useful as the others, but come a Psyker-heavy list, and they are going to have a problem.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Powerfisting wrote:

Spoiler:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Powerfisting wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
2) What I meant by the "Lost to..." rules are that those armies can only choose a Mark from that particular god, or not have a Mark at all, since, e.g., World Eaters have sold themselves to Khorne, but that doesn't mean that they have recieved his Mark, or even accept him as their patron. All other factions can choose any Mark, or none, if the like to.

Ok. That's what I though. I noticed a lot of ideas from the HH army lists made their way into your rules (which is not a bad thing at all). Had you considered thematic drawbacks a la Horus Heresy as well? they might not gel well with Kill Team rules, but I always prefer them as a way to immerse both players in the fluff and crunch, if that makes sense.

Oh, I love drawbacks in rules, and would frankly love it if all rules had that, but because they don't, I didn't want to throw more into it than is already there - Level with me here, it's not like Chaos has it easy already.

I have added the minus to BS for World Eaters, though, and Nostraman Blood could be added. I've also added Fear to the entire army for the simple fact that Chaos Marines gotta be the most terrifying thing to face, of all the horrors in 40k. Also for the Fear defense.

Also, can I get your word on the Marks? I personally despise the Nurgle Mark, mainly because I don't see why Nurgle would make your body even more tough, but rather make it have more surplurflous meat, fat, bile and such. I like the Fantasy one more, the one that reduces To Hit rolls made against the unit instead. That would, in a sweet and ironic way, make Flamers more effective at removing Nurglite units.

I don't mind nurgle units having a toughness boost, personally and it doesn't bother me nearly as much as bikes being T5. I just wish Toughness boosts wouldn't affect ID thresholds. But I do see where you come from; -1 to hit would represent a lot of shots just kinda... getting stuck in their targets rather than hitting anything vital, which is a lot like missing, I guess?

Khorne and Slaaensh work for me, in both the daemonic and marine forms.

But I've never been torn by anything more than the way Tzeentch irks me. Invul. saves are cool and fluffy, but the crunch doesn't work for me at all. I've actually been writing my own version of 40k for a couple months now and I cannot get over representing Tzeentch properly. A broad invul save/ improved save is clean and easy to point cost via comparison and invuln rerolls of static saves are equally easy to objectify and point- cost, but on the TT it just feels like a weak cop-- out to me.

And then to me at least, there is this other issue where the mark of Tzeentch is something that could potentially represent a broad range of units, but 1K Sons need to be more than marines with invun saves. I'm so torn with this that I almost want to make 1K Sons their own unit in my own game and also have normal marines be upgradable to have the MoT so that 1K Sons have representation and marines that happen to have the MoT but are not piles of dust piloting power armor suits also have representation. / rant

So, about marks, I like Khorne and Slaanesh, I'm ok with Nurgle, but trying to represent Tzeentch gives me heart palpitations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Wise Dane wrote:


BTW, I had an idea. An additional Warp Psychic table, Corrumancy. It should be a standard Psychic table that only Chaos Marines can get access to, and is based around boosting infantry and support.

Warp Surge - Primaris.
- Warp Charges: 1
- Blessing.
- Target: Psyker Unit.
- The unit may take 1d6 T test: For each succesful, you may regenerate one wound to the unit. These models may only be model lost from the unit in the battle.

Weapons of Corruption - 1.
- Warp Charges: 1-3
- Blessing.
- Target: Psyker Unit and Psyker.
- Choose a weapon type in the unit (ranged, melee). If succesful, the unit gets the following effects until the end of your next turn.
- 1 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit with the weapon.
- 2 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound with the weapon.
- 3 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound with the weapon. Additionally, each weapon may shoot one additional shot/do one additional attack.

Cursed Land - 2
- Warp Charges: 1-2
- Malediction.
- Target: None.
- Place a Large Blast (7'' inches Blast if two Charges) within 12'' of the Psyker. All enemy models moving through the blast marker must take a Difficult and Dangerous Test, even if the model could originally ignore Terrain. Friendly models in the blast gain a 4+ Cover save, and models Deep Striking entirely within the Blast marker may re-roll the Scatter dice. The Blast stays until the end of your next turn.

Wake the Warp - 3
- Warp Charges: 2
- Malediction.
- Target: Enemy unit.
- The enemy unit must make a Ld check with a -1 modifier (models with ATSKNF ignore this modifier). For every point the enemy unit fails by, the unit loses one random model, regardless of wounds and saves. In your next Psychic phase, the unit must roll this test again, with a -2 modifier, next again with a -3 modifier and so on, until the unit succesfully passes the test. Additionally, as long as the unit has failed the Ld check in their turn, the unit takes Fear tests on a -2 modifier.

That seems cool; Kind of what malefic Daemonology should have been, rather than "here, ML 1 Imperial psyker, have a couple free units of daemons." Where did you come up with the name for it?

Well, I tried to translate to Corrupt to latin, but it came out as Corrupio, so... Curro + Mancy xD

Invul. Saves are really also a gripe for me - Alongside FNP rolls, they are my most hated rolls, because they just ignore good rolls with no thought.

On the account of Tzeentch Mark, I think the combination of BS 2 Snap Shots and AdWill would be fair. It isn't as generally useful as the others, but come a Psyker-heavy list, and they are going to have a problem.

FnP needs to be converted to an entirely different mechanic, to be honest, rather than an asinine super- invuln save but that is a discussion for a different thread.

I never thought of snap- shot reduction before. That seems like a cool twist. I wonder how to convert that to an environment without snap- shots....