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One sore point for me as an Ork player is that we're functionally the only faction that really cares or is affected by fear in any meaningful way. SM have complete immunity and other armies either have high enough Ld to fall upon to not make it matter or are shooting armies so they're typically boned in CC anyways.

Personally I would just scrap the rule along with Soul Blaze given that they're a waste of ink that is one of many rules that bloat up this game.

Alas, for the sake of entertaining it as a functional rule, primarily for my CSM friend, what can be done to make it actually worthwhile?

I think the main issue with Fear is how its limited only to CC, in 40K shooting is currently king, unlike Fantasy where it was originally ported from. You can pretty much spend the entire game not physically engaging with the foe.

So first fixes:

Models with ATSKNF may re-roll failed Fear tests, not have outright immunity. Only Fearless models get immunity.

Walkers/SHW and MC/GMC inflict a -1Ld penalty to Fear Tests. Walkers are changed to also have Fear as one of their baseline special rules. Models with the Daemon special rule also inflicts a -1Ld penalty to Fear Tests, this is cumulative with the -1 modifier from being a MC/GMC or Walkers/SHW.

Alongside the normal rules for testing for Fear in combat, make it so that models that target a model/unit with Fear during the shooting phase must first take a Fear test to see if they stand firm and fire straight at the target. If the Fear test is failed, the unit may only fire at BS1 this turn.

So what do you guys think? I was thinking that maybe there should be a supped up version of Fear called Terror but I think that makes it overly complicated.

You'd ideally want it to be a less potent effect, but one that happens without a roll. Make it consistent, in other words.

raverrn wrote:
You'd ideally want it to be a less potent effect, but one that happens without a roll. Make it consistent, in other words.

So....any suggestions? Like what, a flat rate against Ld?

Oh, I don't know. Re-rolling 6s to hit in CC, maybe?

Ah, but then you nerf things that get special stuff on to hit rolls of 6 harder than anyone else.

I would think it would be cool if it were replaced by a rule that forces fearless units to take morale checks after losing models to that unit in the shooting phase or wounds in close combat.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Ah, but then you nerf things that get special stuff on to hit rolls of 6 harder than anyone else.

I would think it would be cool if it were replaced by a rule that forces fearless units to take morale checks after losing models to that unit in the shooting phase or wounds in close combat.

I picked hit instead of wound because there's very little that activate to hit. Skitarii and Harlies, I think? But you're right, it's a kinda lame bonus.

Maybe a bonus to Sweeping Advances? +1 or +2 to the roll, and maybe when it does successfully sweep, enemies within x" have to make a Ld test?

It would be cool if Fear added to your combat resolution, or took away from the enemy's.

Like either a +1/2 bonus or -1/2 debuff (maybe even +2 or -2 normally, and +1 or -1 against Fearless/ATSKNF opponents?). Makes it easier for enemies to lose combat and run away.

Maybe it could even (in addition to that), in the case of a drawn combat a unit with Fear counts as winning unless the opposing unit has Fearless/ATSKNF? That might be too much though.

I like the idea of a bonus to sweeping advances, that makes awesome sense. Perhaps coupled with a flat -1 to combat resolution?

Kind of tries to get around some sort of test on an inherently inter codex variable characteristic like leadership by at least allowing low leadership units to potentially ignore it by winning combat (Helping the orks out) while also allowing a higher leadership unit to suffer some form of penalty for the rule existing that can make a difference?

Also leaves the rule unaffected by fearless whereas with the ld test after a sweeping advance bubble thing, fearless units would be unaffected.

Make it do all three. Why not. It wouldn't be game breaking. Just relevant. I would remember that my entire army has it when I play a game.

I suppose it could maybe be abused by certain builds at that point though.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I like the idea of a bonus to sweeping advances, that makes awesome sense. Perhaps coupled with a flat -1 to combat resolution?

Kind of tries to get around some sort of test on an inherently inter codex variable characteristic like leadership by at least allowing low leadership units to potentially ignore it by winning combat (Helping the orks out) while also allowing a higher leadership unit to suffer some form of penalty for the rule existing that can make a difference?

Also leaves the rule unaffected by fearless whereas with the ld test after a sweeping advance bubble thing, fearless units would be unaffected.

Make it do all three. Why not. It wouldn't be game breaking. Just relevant. I would remember that my entire army has it when I play a game.

I suppose it could maybe be abused by certain builds at that point though.

I'll take 'abused by certain builds' over 'never used ever'.

Besides, it makes narrative sense. "Holy crap, that Carnifex just ate Bob! I'm out of here!"

Why not just get rid of fear? It is mostly redundant and would benefit the weaker armies of 40k.

What if fear caused enemy units to take leadership checks on 3d6 taking the highest 2 rolls when in close combat and only ATSKF and Fearless ignores this. It becomes less useless against high leadership armies (easier to break elder and necrons in close combat) and it doesn't ruin assault armies like Orks who tend to either butcher the opponent or have mob rule keep them stuck into the fight. It might even be good against psykers in close combat as any perils test they have to take might fail more often.

 Vankraken wrote:
What if fear caused enemy units to take leadership checks on 3d6 taking the highest 2 rolls when in close combat and only ATSKF and Fearless ignores this. It becomes less useless against high leadership armies (easier to break elder and necrons in close combat) and it doesn't ruin assault armies like Orks who tend to either butcher the opponent or have mob rule keep them stuck into the fight. It might even be good against psykers in close combat as any perils test they have to take might fail more often.

That's a pretty good fix actually, much easier to deal with rather than having to modify your Ld stat like my idea. Though I would say that models with ATSKNF should only be able to re-roll the 3D6 they get, not complete immunity.

To fix fear one must first fix cc, and that is a far more complex matter.

Allow me to table a suggestion I've been mulling over:

Overwatch changes:

Models that elect to overwatch cannot hit n run or exit combat via any means for the first full turn of play (so that's their turn and yours they are locked even if it's a vehicle) unless the unit running away is a super heavy or a gmc, or the unit you are engaged with is s&p. In addition should a close combat occur after an overwatch has taken place attack at ws 1 for the first round of combat for the unit that overwatched

This makes overwatch the bane of the cc unit a tactical choice you now have consequences for overwatching and just doing it badly. If it happens anyway your going to get punished for it and you cannot exit the combat to avoid it. This strips away something that always used to be abused by unit like crisis suits and black Knights if cc got dodgy or they wanted to shoot them instead they would disengage and then just blast them making the cc ultimately meaningless. This doesn't take the power away from overwatch but rather makes it a tactical decision forcing you to decide wether it's better to shoot and take it on the chin, or run away or handle it in melee.

Fear; I want to rework fear into the following I think it compliments this rule change better:

Fear usr:
If a model with fear makes a successful sweeping advance or eliminates an enemy unit in close combat completely enemy units within 10" of the close combat that are not a vehicle, gmc, or joined by an independent character run d6 (2d6 for bikes/jet bikes) inches in a direction determined by a scatter dice. If the direct hit is rolled models run in a direction of the fearing units choosing.

Atsknf will need to be amended: models with this are allowed to determine which direction they run as a result of fear (though they still travel their normal distance)

Fearless amended too: units with this special rule may ignore the effects of fear if they make a leadership test that is unmodified).

The idea being that fear now does what it says on the box. This thing that slaughtered your friends ten feet away is a paragon of war he fills hearts with dread and that sinking "and I'm next" feeling. Command has broken down and now those guys just want to get out of there as no harping by their commander will change things they want to just exit. Even if only to a position they feel is safer than being around that monster. Marines don't run in terror they make tactical decisions, they are moving to a position they feel is better.

Now the cc has been fixed I feel shooting units still get their defence against the punching arts but punching can wail on you with virtual impunity if you choose to go that way either because your too stubborn or he's not letting you find the moment to run away. And fear now has battlefield impact, if I say lock horns with guardsmen with some assault marines blessed somehow with fear and I crush them the rest of the guard gun line could effectively crumble. You could have them all run this way and that. It forces you to act to this shift in your troops in the battlefield to places you didn't want them to go or away from where you wanted them to be. This might not seem like much but even d6 or 2d6 inches can be huge huge changes. 2d6 in the wrong way for bikes means they might just run off the table and never come back, it might force devestators out of place manning a quad gun and several inches away from their platform your opponents vital defence against planes.

It makes you fear locking into cc as a shooty army again. Will half your army decide to up and nope 6inches back on you, will your heavy weapons teams move and therefore be unable to fire now? It breeds lots of nasty cause and effect in cc play that I feel would change a lot of how people approach building units In armies that arent all about one type of combat and that's it.

Sadly the fix for Fear is easy, just not attractive: don't make And They Shall Know No Fear immune to it, maybe just have it reduce the effects (perhaps reducing Leadership by 1 or 2, or reduce the effect to a -1 instead of reducing the attributes to 1).

I always thought there should be another level, such as Fear and Terror, or maybe Fear and Madness. Fear can be ignored/mitigated, Madness/Terror cannot.

EDIT: I heard a suggestion somewhere else on these forums concerning this as well, not sure who said it: Fear should also effect Overwatch, and should also effect enemies who charge against them. Maybe make Marines immune to one effect, but not the other(s).

FEAR 2.0
As now, but add the following:
"Units which are charged by a unit with Fear must re-roll successful Overwatch shots and do not benefit from the Counter-attack special rule. In addition, a unit which charges a unit with the Fear special rule always counts as making a disordered charge."

 Marik Law wrote:
Sadly the fix for Fear is easy, just not attractive: don't make And They Shall Know No Fear immune to it, maybe just have it reduce the effects (perhaps reducing Leadership by 1 or 2, or reduce the effect to a -1 instead of reducing the attributes to 1).

I always thought there should be another level, such as Fear and Terror, or maybe Fear and Madness. Fear can be ignored/mitigated, Madness/Terror cannot.

EDIT: I heard a suggestion somewhere else on these forums concerning this as well, not sure who said it: Fear should also effect Overwatch, and should also effect enemies who charge against them. Maybe make Marines immune to one effect, but not the other(s).

FEAR 2.0
As now, but add the following:
"Units which are charged by a unit with Fear must re-roll successful Overwatch shots and do not benefit from the Counter-attack special rule. In addition, a unit which charges a unit with the Fear special rule always counts as making a disordered charge."

a for effort but all you've done I feel is over complicated fears interactions with things. I feel that if this was in the brb as a rule it would get tossed under the proverbial bus into that put we shoved mysterious objectives, and night fighting.

 ionusx wrote:
To fix fear one must first fix cc, and that is a far more complex matter.

Allow me to table a suggestion I've been mulling over:

Overwatch changes:

Models that elect to overwatch cannot hit n run or exit combat via any means for the first full turn of play (so that's their turn and yours they are locked even if it's a vehicle) unless the unit running away is a super heavy or a gmc, or the unit you are engaged with is s&p

In addition models that should a close combat occur after an overwatch has taken place attack at ws 1 for the first round of combat

This makes overwatch the bane of the cc unit a tactical choice you now have consequences for overwatching and just doing it badly. If it happens anyway your going to get punished for it and you cannot exit the combat to avoid it. This strips away something that always used to be abused by unit like crisis suits and black Knights if cc got dodgy or they wanted to shoot them instead they would disengage and then just blast them making the cc ultimately meaningless. This doesn't take the power away from overwatch but rather makes it a tactical decision forcing you to decide wether it's better to shoot and take it on the chin, or run away or handle it in melee.

Fear; I want to rework fear into the following I think it compliments this rule change better:

Fear usr:
If a model with fear makes a successful sweeping advance or eliminates an enemy unit in close combat completely enemy units within 10" of the close combat that are not a vehicle, gmc, or joined by an independent character run d6 (2d6 for bikes/jet bikes) inches in a direction determined by a scatter dice. If the direct hit is rolled models run in a direction of the fearing units choosing.

Atsknf will need to be amended: models with this are allowed to determine which direction they run as a result of fear (though they still travel their normal distance)

Fearless amended too: units with this special rule may ignore the effects of fear if they make a leadership test that is unmodified).

The idea being that fear now does what it says on the box. This thing that slaughtered your friends ten feet away is a paragon of war he fills hearts with dread and that sinking "and I'm next" feeling. Command has broken down and now those guys just want to get out of there as no harping by their commander will change things they want to just exit. Even if only to a position they feel is safer than being around that monster. Marines don't run in terror they make tactical decisions, they are moving to a position they feel is better.

Now the cc has been fixed I feel shooting units still get their defence against the punching arts but punching can wail on you with virtual impunity if you choose to go that way either because your too stubborn or he's not letting you find the moment to run away. And fear now has battlefield impact, if I say lock horns with guardsmen with some assault marines blessed somehow with fear and I crush them the rest of the guard gun line could effectively crumble. You could have them all run this way and that. It forces you to act to this shift in your troops in the battlefield to places you didn't want them to go or away from where you wanted them to be. This might not seem like much but even d6 or 2d6 inches can be huge huge changes. 2d6 in the wrong way for bikes means they might just run off the table and never come back, it might force devestators out of place manning a quad gun and several inches away from their platform your opponents vital defence against planes.

It makes you fear locking into cc as a shooty army again. Will half your army decide to up and nope 6inches back on you, will your heavy weapons teams move and therefore be unable to fire now? It breeds lots of nasty cause and effect in cc play that I feel would change a lot of how people approach building units In armies that arent all about one type of combat and that's it.

Wait, i can win the game by making my opponent run off the table again?? Praise be its like 4th ed again!!

In a more serious note, this sounds like an interesting rule, and i kinda wanna playtest it.

 Grimmor wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
To fix fear one must first fix cc, and that is a far more complex matter.

Allow me to table a suggestion I've been mulling over:

Overwatch changes:

Models that elect to overwatch cannot hit n run or exit combat via any means for the first full turn of play (so that's their turn and yours they are locked even if it's a vehicle) unless the unit running away is a super heavy or a gmc, or the unit you are engaged with is s&p

In addition models that should a close combat occur after an overwatch has taken place attack at ws 1 for the first round of combat

This makes overwatch the bane of the cc unit a tactical choice you now have consequences for overwatching and just doing it badly. If it happens anyway your going to get punished for it and you cannot exit the combat to avoid it. This strips away something that always used to be abused by unit like crisis suits and black Knights if cc got dodgy or they wanted to shoot them instead they would disengage and then just blast them making the cc ultimately meaningless. This doesn't take the power away from overwatch but rather makes it a tactical decision forcing you to decide wether it's better to shoot and take it on the chin, or run away or handle it in melee.

Fear; I want to rework fear into the following I think it compliments this rule change better:

Fear usr:
If a model with fear makes a successful sweeping advance or eliminates an enemy unit in close combat completely enemy units within 10" of the close combat that are not a vehicle, gmc, or joined by an independent character run d6 (2d6 for bikes/jet bikes) inches in a direction determined by a scatter dice. If the direct hit is rolled models run in a direction of the fearing units choosing.

Atsknf will need to be amended: models with this are allowed to determine which direction they run as a result of fear (though they still travel their normal distance)

Fearless amended too: units with this special rule may ignore the effects of fear if they make a leadership test that is unmodified).

The idea being that fear now does what it says on the box. This thing that slaughtered your friends ten feet away is a paragon of war he fills hearts with dread and that sinking "and I'm next" feeling. Command has broken down and now those guys just want to get out of there as no harping by their commander will change things they want to just exit. Even if only to a position they feel is safer than being around that monster. Marines don't run in terror they make tactical decisions, they are moving to a position they feel is better.

Now the cc has been fixed I feel shooting units still get their defence against the punching arts but punching can wail on you with virtual impunity if you choose to go that way either because your too stubborn or he's not letting you find the moment to run away. And fear now has battlefield impact, if I say lock horns with guardsmen with some assault marines blessed somehow with fear and I crush them the rest of the guard gun line could effectively crumble. You could have them all run this way and that. It forces you to act to this shift in your troops in the battlefield to places you didn't want them to go or away from where you wanted them to be. This might not seem like much but even d6 or 2d6 inches can be huge huge changes. 2d6 in the wrong way for bikes means they might just run off the table and never come back, it might force devestators out of place manning a quad gun and several inches away from their platform your opponents vital defence against planes.

It makes you fear locking into cc as a shooty army again. Will half your army decide to up and nope 6inches back on you, will your heavy weapons teams move and therefore be unable to fire now? It breeds lots of nasty cause and effect in cc play that I feel would change a lot of how people approach building units In armies that arent all about one type of combat and that's it.

Wait, i can win the game by making my opponent run off the table again?? Praise be its like 4th ed again!!

In a more serious note, this sounds like an interesting rule, and i kinda wanna playtest it.

its unlikely you could make a whole army run off a table since its a 1 time run, but run a single unit off a table side is plausible sure

I'm with 3d6 break tests. Best solution.

 ionusx wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
To fix fear one must first fix cc, and that is a far more complex matter.

Allow me to table a suggestion I've been mulling over:

Overwatch changes:

Models that elect to overwatch cannot hit n run or exit combat via any means for the first full turn of play (so that's their turn and yours they are locked even if it's a vehicle) unless the unit running away is a super heavy or a gmc, or the unit you are engaged with is s&p

In addition models that should a close combat occur after an overwatch has taken place attack at ws 1 for the first round of combat

This makes overwatch the bane of the cc unit a tactical choice you now have consequences for overwatching and just doing it badly. If it happens anyway your going to get punished for it and you cannot exit the combat to avoid it. This strips away something that always used to be abused by unit like crisis suits and black Knights if cc got dodgy or they wanted to shoot them instead they would disengage and then just blast them making the cc ultimately meaningless. This doesn't take the power away from overwatch but rather makes it a tactical decision forcing you to decide wether it's better to shoot and take it on the chin, or run away or handle it in melee.

Fear; I want to rework fear into the following I think it compliments this rule change better:

Fear usr:
If a model with fear makes a successful sweeping advance or eliminates an enemy unit in close combat completely enemy units within 10" of the close combat that are not a vehicle, gmc, or joined by an independent character run d6 (2d6 for bikes/jet bikes) inches in a direction determined by a scatter dice. If the direct hit is rolled models run in a direction of the fearing units choosing.

Atsknf will need to be amended: models with this are allowed to determine which direction they run as a result of fear (though they still travel their normal distance)

Fearless amended too: units with this special rule may ignore the effects of fear if they make a leadership test that is unmodified).

The idea being that fear now does what it says on the box. This thing that slaughtered your friends ten feet away is a paragon of war he fills hearts with dread and that sinking "and I'm next" feeling. Command has broken down and now those guys just want to get out of there as no harping by their commander will change things they want to just exit. Even if only to a position they feel is safer than being around that monster. Marines don't run in terror they make tactical decisions, they are moving to a position they feel is better.

Now the cc has been fixed I feel shooting units still get their defence against the punching arts but punching can wail on you with virtual impunity if you choose to go that way either because your too stubborn or he's not letting you find the moment to run away. And fear now has battlefield impact, if I say lock horns with guardsmen with some assault marines blessed somehow with fear and I crush them the rest of the guard gun line could effectively crumble. You could have them all run this way and that. It forces you to act to this shift in your troops in the battlefield to places you didn't want them to go or away from where you wanted them to be. This might not seem like much but even d6 or 2d6 inches can be huge huge changes. 2d6 in the wrong way for bikes means they might just run off the table and never come back, it might force devestators out of place manning a quad gun and several inches away from their platform your opponents vital defence against planes.

It makes you fear locking into cc as a shooty army again. Will half your army decide to up and nope 6inches back on you, will your heavy weapons teams move and therefore be unable to fire now? It breeds lots of nasty cause and effect in cc play that I feel would change a lot of how people approach building units In armies that arent all about one type of combat and that's it.

Wait, i can win the game by making my opponent run off the table again?? Praise be its like 4th ed again!!

In a more serious note, this sounds like an interesting rule, and i kinda wanna playtest it.

its unlikely you could make a whole army run off a table since its a 1 time run, but run a single unit off a table side is plausible sure

Valid, its just nice to see that there would now ba another option besides "blast them from the table" because i cant remember the last time i made a unit rout

 ionusx wrote:

 Marik Law wrote:
Sadly the fix for Fear is easy, just not attractive: don't make And They Shall Know No Fear immune to it, maybe just have it reduce the effects (perhaps reducing Leadership by 1 or 2, or reduce the effect to a -1 instead of reducing the attributes to 1).

I always thought there should be another level, such as Fear and Terror, or maybe Fear and Madness. Fear can be ignored/mitigated, Madness/Terror cannot.

EDIT: I heard a suggestion somewhere else on these forums concerning this as well, not sure who said it: Fear should also effect Overwatch, and should also effect enemies who charge against them. Maybe make Marines immune to one effect, but not the other(s).

FEAR 2.0
As now, but add the following:
"Units which are charged by a unit with Fear must re-roll successful Overwatch shots and do not benefit from the Counter-attack special rule. In addition, a unit which charges a unit with the Fear special rule always counts as making a disordered charge."

a for effort but all you've done I feel is over complicated fears interactions with things. I feel that if this was in the brb as a rule it would get tossed under the proverbial bus into that put we shoved mysterious objectives, and night fighting.

My point was that the problem with Fear is that half the armies you are going to play against are going to be immune to it either through ATSKNF or Fearless. Fear would be a lot more useful if it worked more often. Odds are the only armies that will feel the pinch of this are Admech, AM, Eldar, Tau and Orks, which would be fine if more players actually played those armies. But sadly, the vast majority of 40k armies out there that players mainly play, at least that I've noticed, have immunity to Fear.

All in all, the problem isn't the Fear rule itself, its so many popular armies being immune to it outright and the fact that the Assault Phase is pretty underwhelming in 7th Edition.

Skitarii are rocking LD 8, so they dont care all that much, plus their Overwatch is insane anyway. Eldar will just never get in melee unless they want to, and Cult Mechanicus is almost entirely Servitors, who have Stubborn? i think