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So, I was looking at the Jedi v. SM thread, and was thinking "how are the Space Marines going to block Jedi just picking them up and throwing them at the ground repeatedly like a ragdoll?" Then, it occurred to me that the Jedi never actually do this, nor do the Sith. Why does this never happen? What logic is there in not just picking your foe up and smashing his face into the floor until his head no longer exists? It doesn't make sense that the force-users always just throw buildings at eachother when they could literally collapse eachother's spinal cords with their minds.

Buildings have Ld 0, meaning they cannot pass the required resist check.

Because a sufficiently powerful telekinetic just wins everything, ruining the story.

Because... rules?

I assume that jedi can resist attempts to apply the force against their body. Darth Vader and Luke only use force choke against non-jedi. The Emperor uses force lightning against Luke but that's slightly different as its directed energy rather than manipulation of their body.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I assume that jedi can resist attempts to apply the force against their body. Darth Vader and Luke only use force choke against non-jedi. The Emperor uses force lightning against Luke but that's slightly different as its directed energy rather than manipulation of their body.

Don't forget that Made Windu also soaked that same lightning up with his light saber. I agree I think they are at least some what immune to different force attacks

Yeah, but then why don't they use the force more against non-Jedi? Why walk all the up to them to slash them with a lightsaber when you could just use the force to kill them from a distance?

Probably because it tires them out. Do you have a reserve of force? Who knows?

The Force is like a water butt filled from a gutter down-pipe.

Or something.

Some times they do fling people around. In the Ep III Obiwan versus Anikin fight they bith try to fling each other at the same time and it's an obvious battle of wills.

Also for the most part it's not very good control...only push or pull not fine manipulation...

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Yeah, but then why don't they use the force more against non-Jedi? Why walk all the up to them to slash them with a lightsaber when you could just use the force to kill them from a distance?

Dark side users do use the Force to kill people. Jedi state that doing so leads to pale, veiny skin with funky eyes, though.

Because movies don't make sense in scenes where sense would kill everything.

Like, during a talk at my RPG game last night, how does Captain America's shield, made of vibration cancelling vibranium, ricochet among lots of foes when he throws it, rather than cancelling it's own inertial action after hitting the first guy?

How do violent forces possibly affect Ultron's vibranium body? It would cancel everything just like Cap's shield stops bullets and even Mjolnir.

In the same way, you can't think too hard about Star War's space magic.

I still never got why no Jedi or sith ever just flicks the I/O switch on the other guy's light saber at a critical moment. Size matters not, right?

 Ahtman wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Yeah, but then why don't they use the force more against non-Jedi? Why walk all the up to them to slash them with a lightsaber when you could just use the force to kill them from a distance?

Dark side users do use the Force to kill people. Jedi state that doing so leads to pale, veiny skin with funky eyes, though.

They rarely do so in actual combat though. Most times they do it is outside of combat. In combat, dark side users still seem to prefer using different weapons.
Like that time when Darth Vader chased the rebel starfighters during the attack on the Death Star. He went through all the trouble of chasing through the trench, targetting and shooting them. Couldn't he have just used the Force to make them crash, or press the "off" switch on those X-Wings?
Or why didn't Darth Sidious, supposedly one of the most powerful Force users to have ever existed, do anything at all when Darth Vader lifted him up and threw him down a shaft? I mean, apart from shouting no, no no! of course. It is hard to believe that the most powerful Sith ever couldn't do something simple like just jumping away?
The more I think about this, the less it makes sense. Damn it, why did someone have to bring this up! Now I will never be able to see Star Wars again without constantly thinking "why didn't they just use the Force"?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The more I think about this, the less it makes sense.

Then you aren't really thinking about it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
"why didn't they just use the Force"?

Because the Force is a living thing and not a tool to just turn on and off like a switch. It is said several times in the films. Also rule of cool and what Dogma said.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Now I will never be able to see Star Wars again without constantly thinking "why didn't they just use the Force"?

In the words of Han Solo in TFA, in response to that exact question, 'that's not how the Force works!'

There's also the fact that it requires immense concentration, which is hard to pull off when you're in the middle of a dogfight, or outnumbered 10 to 1, or your greatest ally has suddenly turned on you ect.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The more I think about this, the less it makes sense.

Then you aren't really thinking about it.

Are you trying to make a point of some kind? You might try using arguments instead. It is more convincing.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
"why didn't they just use the Force"?

Because the Force is a living thing and not a tool to just turn on and off like a switch. It is said several times in the films. Also rule of cool and what Dogma said.

Yes, but if you can use that living thing seems to be used as a tool a lot to throw around people and objects in the middle of a fight, choke people, shoot lighting out of your hands and a million other fantastic things. So if you can use it to do all that, you could probably use it to flick switches as well.
Of course I am aware that it is done to make the movies more fun and exciting, but it doesn't really seem to make sense from an in-universe point of view.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Now I will never be able to see Star Wars again without constantly thinking "why didn't they just use the Force"?

In the words of Han Solo in TFA, in response to that exact question, 'that's not how the Force works!'

There's also the fact that it requires immense concentration, which is hard to pull off when you're in the middle of a dogfight, or outnumbered 10 to 1, or your greatest ally has suddenly turned on you ect.

Count Dooku, Obi Wan and Anakin, Palpatine and Yoda all did not have trouble using the Force in the middle of a fight in the Prequels.
Also, Vader wasn't really in a dogfight he was just flying through the trench behind the Rebels trying to get a target lock on them. Had he used the Force, there would have been no need for that. And if the Rebels had the time to concentrate on those bomb aiming devices, and Luke had time enough to concentrate to use the Force to guide his missiles through that small hole, then surely Vader would have been able to concentrate on the Force as well?
Also, Sidious was a Sith Lord. Vader was not his ally. It is Sith tradition for the pupil to betray the master, so Sidious should have totally been prepared for that.

Also, I just realised that Yoda did use the force rather than a lightsaber to take down his enemies (Palpatine's guards in this case). It was totally more effective than if he had used a lightsaber. Also, we see Jedi use the Force against battle droids and other enemies as well. Every time it seems more effective than if they had used a lightsaber. So why don't they use the Force more often? Clearly it isn't a matter of needing time for concentration, because we see them do it in the middle of hectic circumstances as well.
Of course the real reason is that lightsabers just are much more cool, but I still wonder what a good in-universe justification could be.

Concentration is definitely a factor. In a fight, you might be able to push someone back or pull them towards you if you catch them off guard, but that's totally different to pick them up and repeatedly slam them against a wall, or crush their brain, or apply pressure to a very specific point on an object moving at exceptional speed (using your trench run argument). You say Vader was 'just' flying down a trench trying to get a lock', which in fact means he is manoeuvring a large vessel at high speed in a small area while trying to remain in formation with two wingmen, track a moving target and be aware of everything else happening around him. Doesn't leave much room for reaching out to find the exact, tiny, fast-moving button that will cut power to the X-wing. And Luke was not so much using the Force to guide his shot, as letting it guide him into making the shot.

Effort is another factor, look at Yoda in AotC when he saves Obi-wan and Anakin from being crushed, he's clearly struggling. Size may not matter when you have time to focus, no distractions and such, but having to act on reflex is a whole other ball game. It's the difference between lifting a heavy box, and having to catch that box falling at high speed with no prior warning.

Droids have no kind of connection to the Force, so there's no willpower or innate resistance to overcome. Against anything alive, that is not the case, and thus more concentration, effort and willpower is required. Palpatine's guards were not ready; Yoda had the advantage, was prepared and knew exactly what he was going to do. He is also one of the most powerful Force users, with 800 years of experience.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Yeah, but then why don't they use the force more against non-Jedi? Why walk all the up to them to slash them with a lightsaber when you could just use the force to kill them from a distance?

Dark side users do use the Force to kill people. Jedi state that doing so leads to pale, veiny skin with funky eyes, though.

They rarely do so in actual combat though. Most times they do it is outside of combat. In combat, dark side users still seem to prefer using different weapons.
Like that time when Darth Vader chased the rebel starfighters during the attack on the Death Star. He went through all the trouble of chasing through the trench, targetting and shooting them. Couldn't he have just used the Force to make them crash, or press the "off" switch on those X-Wings?
Or why didn't Darth Sidious, supposedly one of the most powerful Force users to have ever existed, do anything at all when Darth Vader lifted him up and threw him down a shaft? I mean, apart from shouting no, no no! of course. It is hard to believe that the most powerful Sith ever couldn't do something simple like just jumping away?
The more I think about this, the less it makes sense. Damn it, why did someone have to bring this up! Now I will never be able to see Star Wars again without constantly thinking "why didn't they just use the Force"?

Earth Vader going through the trench reminds me of the Firefly episode where they were doing a number of daredevil acrobatics flying through a canyon to avoid pursuit, only to look up at the end of it all to see the ship chasing them matching their speed and flying above the canyon.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Are you trying to make a point of some kind? You might try using arguments instead. It is more convincing.

I meant to say you weren't thinking about it hard enough. The answers are generally right there.

When fighting another force user, they are likely using the force to anticipate what you will try with the force against them and their posessions and countering it with their own use of the force. It is harder to predict and prevent what is happening against an external target.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Like that time when Darth Vader chased the rebel starfighters during the attack on the Death Star. He went through all the trouble of chasing through the trench, targetting and shooting them. Couldn't he have just used the Force to make them crash, or press the "off" switch on those X-Wings?

Perhaps Vader was bored, it's well established that he loved to fly. Or perhaps he wasn't too concerned about his rival, Tarkin, blowing up with his own pet project. Subterfuge and Sith basically go hand in hand.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Or why didn't Darth Sidious, supposedly one of the most powerful Force users to have ever existed, do anything at all when Darth Vader lifted him up and threw him down a shaft? I mean, apart from shouting no, no no! of course. It is hard to believe that the most powerful Sith ever couldn't do something simple like just jumping away?

Wookiepedia says that it's canon that Palpatine was a human in his mid-60's before the Empire came into existence, and that the Battle of Yavin was 19 years after that. That means he was at least 85 during the Battle of Endor.

Isn't one of the first things Jedi / Sith are taught is to project some kind of force 'bubble' around themselves to avoid being ragdolled in this fashion by other force users, sure that's in one of the old EU novels somewhere

In the EU jedi would throw people around with the force, but not all the time. I think that it's a limit type thing. A powerful telekinetic would be almost impossible to beat. Especially a combat trained/experience one.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Isn't one of the first things Jedi / Sith are taught is to project some kind of force 'bubble' around themselves to avoid being ragdolled in this fashion by other force users, sure that's in one of the old EU novels somewhere

That is one of the ways bad writers get around telekinesis being an "I win." button.

People often mention Jedi just pushing buttons to turn off important hardware in the middle of combat. Either turning off a lightsabre, or shutting down an enemy fighter. But there’s no example anywhere of the Jedi having anything like that level of fine co-ordination with their force push and force pull. Every example I can think of is either pushing stuff away, pulling stuff closer, lifting it in the air, or dragging it to the ground. It’s powerful, but pretty blunt.

I understand watching a movie or reading a book and thinking past just what’s on the page, thinking about more interesting ways to use the powers represented in the text. I’m a nerd, I do all the time as well. But there seems to be a very strange mindset some people take on, where they start interpreting everything presented in whatever way possible so that it doesn’t make sense. They assume a power much have some other level or ability other than what’s shown, and then declare is bad people don’t use it to that level.

There’s no problem with finding errors in movies, and Star Wars has plenty. But there’s just not much value in taking on a mindset that is actively hunting for mistakes, interpreting vague or unknown information as unfavourably as possible, to discover an error. The opposite also happens, when fans invent overly elaborate background to explain away errors (Kessel Run, anyone?), and that’s common enough that it has a name – fanwank. But at least fanwank has a positive motivation, trying to clean up a problem The mindset where people see problems where none exist is quite mystifying.

I think if I were a lightsaber combatant, a stutter button on my lightsaber would be more useful than telekinesis. When my nemesis is delivering his dramatic speech or whatever when we are locked up I just tap that and tag him on the face.

I would just have a button that lets me make my lightsaber super long. It's just a straight laser beam. Bet I could get some good reach on that with some modification

 sebster wrote:
People often mention Jedi just pushing buttons to turn off important hardware in the middle of combat. Either turning off a lightsabre, or shutting down an enemy fighter. But there’s no example anywhere of the Jedi having anything like that level of fine co-ordination with their force push and force pull. Every example I can think of is either pushing stuff away, pulling stuff closer, lifting it in the air, or dragging it to the ground. It’s powerful, but pretty blunt.

Vader did it in Empire, when he was fighting Luke. Luke went into the carbonite chamber, and Vader force pulled the lever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:
I would just have a button that lets me make my lightsaber super long. It's just a straight laser beam. Bet I could get some good reach on that with some modification

Pretty sure there was a character in the EU that had one. Could extend the blade mid fight.

I'm fairly certain that lightsabers do have an adjustable length setting. Otherwise Yoda would be cutting into the ground most of the time.

And how big was the lever? I can't actually remember but I'm fairly certain it was chunky. Then again, you see Anakin picking up fruit with his powers and giving them to Padme.