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I've recently gotten into Salamanders and I've read all their fluff and as many of their novels as I could find. I think they sound pretty awesome and was disappointed at their Chapter tactics rules from C:SM. I wanted to suggest a few changes that would bring them more in line with their fluff and still make them an effective marine chapter to play with or against.

1. Give them more access to Heavy flamers. It makes no sense for a chapter that builds its tactics around fire and heat based weapons to not have more options for Heavy Flamers. It should not be limited to Terminators, Vanguard vets, and LotD. Any time a unit gets a choice to bring a heavy weapon then It should be open to bring the HF.

2. The melta pistols that BA and certain SoB and inquisition gets should be available to the salamanders in the Ranged Weapons section.

3. The Baal Predator with its firestorm cannon turret should also be available to Salamanders.

4. Their librarians should have their own special version of Pyromancy psychic powers or at least get to re-roll 1's when casting their fire powers.

I don't think any of these changes would bring them over the top in making them OP, but it would certainly give them more options that reflect their fluff and style of warfare rather than the watered down Chapter tactic we currently have.

There was a time when only salamanders could take MMs on the tac squads.

I’m OK with widespread access to HFs. Honestly, I think everyone should have it. It’s not like they are rare or exotic wargear.

I didn’t think people actually took the melta pistols. IIRC they (like most pistols) are overpriced. And to use them, you basically need to be hugging the tank. If it goes boom, you are getting caught in the blast.

Would you take a Baal if it wasn’t fast? I’m not a big fan of each chapter having special snowflake stuff, but fast tanks have been part of BAs for a long time now. Even if you got a chance to steal one, once you paint it green, it’s going to slow down. I do think there is a place for a tank that sets things on fire between the TLHF razor and the LRR.

The pyromancey bit is the first thing you suggested that I have an issue with. Everything else is just giving them more options, which you pay for. This is the first bonus power with no strings. Re-rolling ones to get powers off is kinda big. Admittedly, it’s not the most broken of the psychic disciplines, so there is the opportunity cost of not going for another list. But I think it’s a little too much to ask for without cutting something else.

Predator Infernus from Forge World is basically a Baal Predator without the overcharged engines or assault cannon option.

The only sensible use for Inferno Pistols is on a dual-wielding Canoness who's running with a Dominion squad. As Nevelon says, they're too expensive to put on Seraphim, who are much better being monorole anti-infantry anyway.

Ahhhh space marine privilege. Play any other faction, guess how many rules you get for free to represent your sub-faction of choice?

Nothing...divided by nothing, carry the nothing...

the_scotsman wrote:
Ahhhh space marine privilege. Play any other faction, guess how many rules you get for free to represent your sub-faction of choice?

Nothing...divided by nothing, carry the nothing...

That's because Xenos scum are all the same.


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 Nevelon wrote:


The pyromancey bit is the first thing you suggested that I have an issue with. Everything else is just giving them more options, which you pay for. This is the first bonus power with no strings. Re-rolling ones to get powers off is kinda big. Admittedly, it’s not the most broken of the psychic disciplines, so there is the opportunity cost of not going for another list. But I think it’s a little too much to ask for without cutting something else.

You might have a point there. Hell, I'd be happy just for the Heavy Flamer access. Would help round out their Tac squads at least.

...but it makes sense for the Salamanders to have access to the "Baal" predator (ie, the Blood Angels home world) with the secret STC that only blood angels have because salamanders like fire?

My orks like going fast, drop pods go fast. I'll take drop pods for my orks please

I'm not down with stealing the baal pred. Forge world makes a pred that has a flamer main weapon just use. BA are in bad enough shape without losing a unit that is unique to them.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm not down with stealing the baal pred. Forge world makes a pred that has a flamer main weapon just use. BA are in bad enough shape without losing a unit that is unique to them.

Well, to be fair, there's simply no Chaos option for the Sallies to steal and make 10x better... So, I guess it's down to thieving the BA's stuff at this point?!

What chaos things have the loyalists stolen? Seems very much like loyalists get the toys then the CSM either do or don't get them, frequently don't.

...there's nothing wrong with the Salamanders, they just can't be broken in the same ways some other chapters can, but their chapter tactics and, more fundamentally, the SM book as a whole sans Chapter Tactics, are pretty solid.

They don't need everyone else's toys or enhanced access to things other chapters don't, they're a largely codex adherent chapter (though the same also applies to the BA's and DA's...but that's another story). Sallies are perfectly functional and fluffy as they are. They're a codex chapter with some *preference* for certain types of weapons, not fire-fetishists, going down that route leads to the sad state of affairs that is the Space Wolves today.

 Vaktathi wrote:
They're a codex chapter with some *preference* for certain types of weapons, not fire-fetishists, going down that route leads to the sad state of affairs that is the Space Wolves today.

True. The current Space Wolves should be a cautionary tale about what happens when you pick an interesting concept (Space Vikings) then overdo it.

I think Salamanders are pretty fine on their own today. Actually, the chapters included in the main SM codex look like the lucky ones at this point.

the_scotsman wrote:
What chaos things have the loyalists stolen? Seems very much like loyalists get the toys then the CSM either do or don't get them, frequently don't.

- Assault from Deep Strike used to be a Chaos thing back with Daemon summoning, then we lost it... and Loyalists got it with Skyhammer.
Hell, accurate Deep Strike in general used to be a Chaos staple, but luckily Loyalists now have it the best!

- Legion rules!!
Good thing all Chaos Marines now fight exactly the same, but thankfully every single special snowflake Marine gets their own special rules.

- Centurions = Oblits & Mutilators on steroids.

- Chaos used to be king of Psychics, then DA's followed by Vanillas get handed Tzeentch's old Apoc Sorcerer formation. (sorry, "Librarius Conclave")

- Dark Blades were daemon weapons that were +2S/ap2, but that was too good obviously... So Loyalists got ap3 Relic Blades, because... "reasons".

- Wulfen are Possessed x1,000,000 at this point.

- Chapter Masters are better beatstick Chaos Lords than freaking Chaos Lords!

Experiment 626 wrote:
- Dark Blades were daemon weapons that were +2S/ap2, but that was too good obviously... So Loyalists got ap3 Relic Blades, because... "reasons".

Sorry, but this isn't entirely accurate. Back in the day there were no AP3 close combat weapons. You were either AP2 or AP- (or a chainaxe/choppa but I digress). Dark Blade was a +2S/AP2 close combat weapon that was 1 per army and caused wounds to the bearer on failed Ld test. This was taken away from CSM only to reappear in the SM codex sans the 1 per army restriction and Ld test.

Dude wants his heavy flamers. Stop accusing him of having access to lib conclave.

I'm pretty fine with access to heavy flamers. As for Baal Preds, fluffwise, they're pure BA design cause they were the only ones who painted their engines red so they go fasta. Just run LR redeemer or double HF speeders. They're still somewhat fine.
Psy power re-rolls of 1-s for pyromancy is probably unjustified even fluffwise.

Well so long as BA get the Stormtalon. I'm fine/not fine without Centurions and TFC because they are static but the Syormtalon fits in well with the aerial assault theme of BA.

 koooaei wrote:
Dude wants his heavy flamers. Stop accusing him of having access to lib conclave.

(un)Fortunately, Salamanders DO have access to Librarius Conclaves. They're not Raven Guard, who lose access to it when you run their unique Detachment.

Psy power re-rolls of 1-s for pyromancy is probably unjustified even fluffwise.

Eh. There's some justification for it as their Librarians tend to be focused upon Pyromancy above all else. But that's a slippery slope.

 koooaei wrote:
Dude wants his heavy flamers. Stop accusing him of having access to lib conclave.

I'm pretty fine with access to heavy flamers. As for Baal Preds, fluffwise, they're pure BA design cause they were the only ones who painted their engines red so they go fasta. Just run LR redeemer or double HF speeders. They're still somewhat fine.
Psy power re-rolls of 1-s for pyromancy is probably unjustified even fluffwise.

I'm not complaing about the OP, instead just responding to the claim that Loyalists have never pooched a single unique toy/unit from Chaos! (which of course, they've done in spades)

I honestly agree that Every! MEQ army should have greater access to Heavy + Hand flamers. Sallies & Black Templars should ideally be able to spam them like BA's do, as it readily fits their established background & character. (Sallies are pyromaniac black smiths, while Templars are religious nuttballs purging every heretic in sight!)

Likewise, they would finally give Chaos Marines some better support for our very aggressive, assault based fighting styles...
Khornate Marines would especially benefit from Hand flamers as an option, and Tzeentch is literally the pyromaniac Chaos God who's always been associated with fire/flame in it's various magical forms.

The Baal predator is garbage anyway. Even with fast.

the_scotsman wrote:
Ahhhh space marine privilege. Play any other faction, guess how many rules you get for free to represent your sub-faction of choice?

Nothing...divided by nothing, carry the nothing...

divide by nothing? that is fine. . .
everything ends when someone pops the universe like a balloon.

I too have always enjoyed the idea of Salamanders and their heat based weaponry. It makes me sad when someone has gone to the effort of painting and modelling up really nice Salamanders and they're given the squads grav or plasma weapons. Obviously they're looking to their tactics, but it doesn't feel "Salamander" to me. Paint them as Ultramarines or something! Not being familiar with the current SM Codex, take my comments with a grain of salt, but I'd really like to see the squads getting access to Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers, perhaps at the cost of Grav Cannons, Plasma Cannons and/or Lascannons.

Don't agree about the Baal Predator (it is a Blood Angels toy, after all), although perhaps the option to have a Razorback with a TL Heavy Flamer turret might be worth a look? I think limiting the amount of Grav/Las/Plas weapons they have and increasing the amount of Flame/Melta weapons they have can only be a good thing.

Perhaps even bring back the melta-missile for the tactical/devastators? Reading the old 2nd edition Wargear book, it was S8 Sv-4 with a 1" blast... Adapt those rules to current day standards and see what happens!

Experiment 626 wrote:

I honestly agree that Every! MEQ army should have greater access to Heavy + Hand flamers. Sallies & Black Templars should ideally be able to spam them like BA's do, as it readily fits their established background & character. (Sallies are pyromaniac black smiths, while Templars are religious nuttballs purging every heretic in sight!)

Once upon a time, every Imperial character down to Guard Sergeants could carry a hand flamer... and Seraphim squads could swap Bolt Pistols for Hand Flamers on a one-to-one basis... for free...

I miss those days.

 Korinov wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
They're a codex chapter with some *preference* for certain types of weapons, not fire-fetishists, going down that route leads to the sad state of affairs that is the Space Wolves today.

True. The current Space Wolves should be a cautionary tale about what happens when you pick an interesting concept (Space Vikings) then overdo it.

I think Salamanders are pretty fine on their own today. Actually, the chapters included in the main SM codex look like the lucky ones at this point.

Nonsense, Dark Angels should ride into battle on giant genetically altered destriers, Salamanders on Salamanders, Grey Knights on Sisters of Battle, and Raven Guard on freak genetically mutated crows

Sallies are fine. Their tactics are solid and their weapon choice is A-OK. Salamanders aren't some flame spamming lunatics like the Wolves' fetish for Wolves and frost wepaons- they use whatever does job, but just happen to like lighting gak on fire. Besides the master-crafted ability suits their habit of forging their own custom gear as master smiths. Looting Blood Angel gear just invalidates the Blood Angels and just doesn't feel right. It'd be like Space Wolves running around with Deathwing Mauls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

I honestly agree that Every! MEQ army should have greater access to Heavy + Hand flamers. Sallies & Black Templars should ideally be able to spam them like BA's do, as it readily fits their established background & character. (Sallies are pyromaniac black smiths, while Templars are religious nuttballs purging every heretic in sight!)

Once upon a time, every Imperial character down to Guard Sergeants could carry a hand flamer... and Seraphim squads could swap Bolt Pistols for Hand Flamers on a one-to-one basis... for free...

I miss those days.

Imagine Dark Angel Veterans with plasma/hand flamer dual wielding.

*The Legiones Astartes laughs in your face*
Sorry i couldnt hear you over the sound of my STOLEN firedrake terminators

Honestly, if the could just take heavy flamers in tactical squads and no other changes, that would be enough for me.

It fits their fluff, and their flavor of play.

 bomtek80 wrote:
I've recently gotten into Salamanders and I've read all their fluff and as many of their novels as I could find. I think they sound pretty awesome and was disappointed at their Chapter tactics rules from C:SM. I wanted to suggest a few changes that would bring them more in line with their fluff and still make them an effective marine chapter to play with or against.

1. Give them more access to Heavy flamers. It makes no sense for a chapter that builds its tactics around fire and heat based weapons to not have more options for Heavy Flamers. It should not be limited to Terminators, Vanguard vets, and LotD. Any time a unit gets a choice to bring a heavy weapon then It should be open to bring the HF.

2. The melta pistols that BA and certain SoB and inquisition gets should be available to the salamanders in the Ranged Weapons section.

3. The Baal Predator with its firestorm cannon turret should also be available to Salamanders.

4. Their librarians should have their own special version of Pyromancy psychic powers or at least get to re-roll 1's when casting their fire powers.

I don't think any of these changes would bring them over the top in making them OP, but it would certainly give them more options that reflect their fluff and style of warfare rather than the watered down Chapter tactic we currently have.

if you take the baal out of the blood angels so much army uniqueness goes away

salamanders are fine as they are. Just like fists they cant be broken

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
salamanders are fine as they are. Just like fists they cant be broken

As opposed to other Chapters being broken you mean?

Experiment 626 wrote:
I honestly agree that Every! MEQ army should have greater access to Heavy + Hand flamers.

Sure. And then we give them all acts of faiths too, am I right?

The Inferno Pistol and Hand Flamer don't really fit Salamanders. They aren't really an assault army. They make more sense with Combi-Flamers and Combi-Meltas. And it turns out, they have access to those things.

Giving them the Baal Predator, something based off an STC that only Blood Angels have access to in the fluff, would be a terrible idea. It is a Blood Angels model. Always has been. If Salamanders want a flamer tank, they can just take the TLHF Razorback.

HF in Tactical Squads wouldn't be broken, by any means.

And seriously, C:SM complaining about not having enough stuff? You have got to be kidding me! WAH! I have Stormtalons, Centurions, Land Speeder Storms, flak tanks, and everything else in between, but Blood Angels have HF Tacticals, pistols, and the Baal Predator! Why doesn't C:SM ever get anything good?!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
And seriously, C:SM complaining about not having enough stuff? You have got to be kidding me! WAH! I have Stormtalons, Centurions, Land Speeder Storms, flak tanks, and everything else in between, but Blood Angels have HF Tacticals, pistols, and the Baal Predator!

Are you seriously going to complain that blood angels don't have enough stuff? For real?