Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys,

The current Ork codex doesn't really play to the theme of the army that I put together way back in 3rd. So basically, I'm going back to some older versions of rules and just want to get some imput from you guys to see if you think it's balanced.

My meta is pretty casual, and there would be no issues implementing these changes, but I just want to make sure that nothing is over the top. Always interested in suggestions and constructive feedback.

One of my aims is to remove the reliance on random tables, so I want to keep the rules pretty self-contained.

This is basically what I have brainstormed that would fix most of my issues with the current codex:


Codex Orks Changes:

Bosspole: +1 Ld for the Nob and reroll 1 failed Ld/Morale test per game phase.

Mob Rule: Ld based on number of boyz in the mob. 10+ boyz = fearless

'Eavy Armour: Upgrade available again for all Nobz

Ramshackle: 5+ inv save - unit cannot jink 10pt upgrade - Trukks only

Killa Kanz: Unit option - Return to older fluff of being piloted by Orks - BS2, WS4. Remove Cowardly Grots rule if Orks chosen.

Cybork Body: Return to 5+ Inv save

Kustom Forcefield - 5+ Inv to all units with at least 50% models within 6". If Mek is embarked, effects only vehicle.


There are some other minor changes that I'm thinking about but I don't want to rewrite everything in one go.

Thanks in advance!

Interesting, heres my take on "Ork Errata"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664333.page

Rikerwota wrote:
Hi guys,

The current Ork codex doesn't really play to the theme of the army that I put together way back in 3rd. So basically, I'm going back to some older versions of rules and just want to get some imput from you guys to see if you think it's balanced.

My meta is pretty casual, and there would be no issues implementing these changes, but I just want to make sure that nothing is over the top. Always interested in suggestions and constructive feedback.

One of my aims is to remove the reliance on random tables, so I want to keep the rules pretty self-contained.

This is basically what I have brainstormed that would fix most of my issues with the current codex:


Codex Orks Changes:

Bosspole: +1 Ld for the Nob and reroll 1 failed Ld/Morale test per game phase.

Mob Rule: Ld based on number of boyz in the mob. 10+ boyz = fearless

'Eavy Armour: Upgrade available again for all Nobz

Ramshackle: 5+ inv save - unit cannot jink 10pt upgrade - Trukks only

Killa Kanz: Unit option - Return to older fluff of being piloted by Orks - BS2, WS4. Remove Cowardly Grots rule if Orks chosen.

Cybork Body: Return to 5+ Inv save

Kustom Forcefield - 5+ Inv to all units with at least 50% models within 6". If Mek is embarked, effects only vehicle.


There are some other minor changes that I'm thinking about but I don't want to rewrite everything in one go.

Thanks in advance!

I like most of that! A few thoughts:

Bosspole: So basically a Ld reroll per phase of each player turn? So a reroll once in the movement, psychic, shooting, and assault phases? Might be easier/simpler/slightly less book-keepy to just "allows rerolls of failed morale tests." The only times I can think of in which orks would be required to take multiple leadership tests in a phase are pinning and soul fright weapons (and whatever the harlequin equivalent is called) and Ld tests caused by psychic powers (which a boss pole probably shouldn't help against). Note that Leadership tests are different from Morale tests. I'm of the opinion that a boss pole should probably only help with the latter.

Mob Rule: I like this much more than the current mob rule, but it reintroduces the old problems of damaged truck-mounted units and small nob squads having crummy leadership under this rule. One fix to this that I've really liked is to base the unit's Ld on the number of wounds rather than the number of bodies. That way, a Nob effectively boosts his squad's Ld with an extra wound, and a 5 man nob squad is still rocking Ld10/Fearless until they get hurt. Note that these proposed changes potentially make smallish squads more susceptible to Ld-based psychic attacks (like psychic shriek) than they are currently. At least, they're more susceptible once they lose enough boys. They're less susceptible until then!

Ramshackle: Speaking as a dark eldar player, AV10 is still squishy even with a 5+ save, and you're probably better off saving those 10 points to simply purchase more bodies/units/killing power. Part of me also doesn't love the idea of shoddy craftsmanship being the equivalent of a holo/flicker field. What about downgrading pens to glances on a 4+ for free? More useful than 6+, and hardly OP imho. It basically just punishes orks less for daring to cross the table in a vehicle rather than walking through a field of bullets.

Cybork Body: The only thing about changing it to a 5+ invul is that you now no longer have a reason to take a Mek with a KFF alongside all your cyborks. Thematically, it would be cool to run these two options together, but making it a 5+ invul actually renders the KFF redundant. Why not make it 5+ or 6+ FNP, and having a pain boy in the unit increases the FNP by 1? That way, it's a nice standalone upgrade that makes neither the pain boy nor the mek redundant, and fluffily running either (or both!) of these HQs alongside your cyborks actually gives you a pretty tough (if unusually expensive) unit. Fills a niche, fits fluf.

KFF: Sure. I feel the KFF is pretty useful as is, but this doesn't seem unreasonable. May need to boost the cost just slightly (not sure of the current cost).

I'm good with all these changes. The 5th edition ork book was great and this brings it closer to that.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm good with all these changes. The 5th edition ork book was great and this brings it closer to that.

Pedantic Nitpick- It was 4th Ed actually.

Some good feedback so far, thanks guys.

Just to address some points raised:

@Grimmor

One of the cool things about being an Ork player is that we can each focus on what we like about Orkiness. I like some of those ideas you linked, although they don't necessarily affect my style of play.

@Wyldhunt

With the bosspole I was thinking it of a basic reroll, but I worded it cautiously in case there were any shenanighans by having it for multiple effects.

My thoughts on the ramshackle rule is that I want to add a random chance of survivability that doesn't rely on tables etc. There's plenty of Orky reasons why the Trukks might be shielded better than you'd expect (Ork natural psychic talent/ablative armour - take your pick).

The downside to reducing pens to glancing is that it doesn't really add any survivability. 2x glancing hits and the Trukk is dead anyway, so I don't feel that it works as a solution. A 5+ could help a lot, or not at all - it's kind of Orky that way I had a lot of luck with my 6+ inv on my killa kanz back in the day!

I like your thoughts on LD being based on wounds...that would definately help Nob squads and just make that little extra difference to a small mob of boyz with a Nob.

With regards to Cybork and KFF - I never mix and match those units - my Mek is usually skulking around the vehicles, so that wasn't really an interaction I was thinking of. Maybe some more work required, but I don't think it hurts if the effects are the same.

I never really run Painboys, and I actually hate FNP as a mechanic - it just adds too much to the combat resolution and lots of futzing around. That is totally my own opinion though - lots of people probably really like it!

@HoundsofDemos

I can't stand the new Codex and just wish I could go back to the 4th/5th ed : /



Thanks for the feedback everyone! I will continue to mull these over and think about how some of these interact with other elements I don't generally play

 Grimmor wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm good with all these changes. The 5th edition ork book was great and this brings it closer to that.

Pedantic Nitpick- It was 4th Ed actually.

I know it is technically released in 4th but it was a few months before 5th and seemed to be written with 5th in mind.

I agree that the Cybork Body should be a FnP save. It feels more thematically correct. In addition, I get the feeling that FnP is usually better than an Invul save since you often got the FnP save on top of whatever other saves you got.

Also I think 'Ere We Go! should be changed to give Orks Run and Charge in the same turn. This is so much more effective than just rerolling charge distances since while it's still random, it gives you a bigger overall distance and gives the army some mobility. Waaagh! instead should be changed to something that is utterly devastating; like giving all Orks Rage and Smash for a turn.

The last two are basically my opinion, as those rules always sounded awesome, but felt really underwhelming in terms of actual crunch. Orks are suppose to be huge mobs of rampaging, beer-drinking hooligans, being slow as molasses and just getting pepped up to run on a Waaagh seemed very anti-climactic.

Cybork being a FNP isn't a problem (6+ and not stacking with a painboy is less than good though) but it replacing our 5+ invuln without any substitute is problematic. Could very easily have an upgrade called "lucky bit" or "lucky paint" that gives an invuln save.

Rikerwota wrote:
Mob Rule: Ld based on number of boyz in the mob. 10+ boyz = fearless

I don't play Orks, but my bro does and I always find Mob Rule a bit of a pain (we've actually printed and laminated a Mob Rule table to make life easier).

I think your change works really well. Orks have stupidly low Ld (7?). Given that they want to fight, why would they run away half the time? With this change, as they lose numbers, their bravado drops. Also making 10+ boyz fearless (although a pain in the backside for me, fighting against them) makes sense too. It's an easy mechanic, isn't OP and fits with the Orky fluff.

I don't know enough to comment on the other changes.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I agree that the Cybork Body should be a FnP save. It feels more thematically correct. In addition, I get the feeling that FnP is usually better than an Invul save since you often got the FnP save on top of whatever other saves you got.

Waaagh! instead should be changed to something that is utterly devastating; like giving all Orks Rage and Smash for a turn.

The last two are basically my opinion, as those rules always sounded awesome, but felt really underwhelming in terms of actual crunch. Orks are suppose to be huge mobs of rampaging, beer-drinking hooligans, being slow as molasses and just getting pepped up to run on a Waaagh seemed very anti-climactic.

Making the average boy have 5 attacks on the charge (due to rage) that are all AP2 (due to smash) seems a bit much to me. Jut Rage seems like it would be rather appropriate though as you get a bigger return from Waaghing the more boys you have charging in.

Cyborg body back to 5++ is defiantly needed because without it we have absolutely no involves in melee, which is just dumb because most of the time we need to be in melee to survive. I would be for Either staking cyborg body with KFF for a 4++ to shooting and 5++ to melee or make the KFF back to giving cover saves

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I agree that the Cybork Body should be a FnP save. It feels more thematically correct. In addition, I get the feeling that FnP is usually better than an Invul save since you often got the FnP save on top of whatever other saves you got.

Also I think 'Ere We Go! should be changed to give Orks Run and Charge in the same turn. This is so much more effective than just rerolling charge distances since while it's still random, it gives you a bigger overall distance and gives the army some mobility. Waaagh! instead should be changed to something that is utterly devastating; like giving all Orks Rage and Smash for a turn.

The last two are basically my opinion, as those rules always sounded awesome, but felt really underwhelming in terms of actual crunch. Orks are suppose to be huge mobs of rampaging, beer-drinking hooligans, being slow as molasses and just getting pepped up to run on a Waaagh seemed very anti-climactic.

I'm not sure that would be a good form of 'Ere We Go!. The Waaagh! takes care of that already, and that seems to work as is. Being able to always run and charge, every turn, would be too much, I think, unless you increased the points cost of basic units a bit. Likewise, Rage and Smash would be OP for Waaagh. I *would* like to see the addition of a +1 to initiative on the charge - nothing's more deflating and anti climactic than to declare your waaagh, get half your army in to charge, only to have to wait and watch as your opponent kills a good chunk of your troops before you get to do anything.

Ramshackle could be ignore any effect on a D6 = 6. Not OP but still helpful.

All Orks get 6+ FNP, Dok's Tools adds 2 to it.

Trukks should definitely be able to Jink for at least a 5+, maybe actually give it Shrouded so it doesn't stack.

Bikes get 5+ cover from Exhaust Cloud all the time, can still Jink for 4+ but does not stack. Cloud would stack with Shrouded, Stealth, night fight but you lose it if you Turbo Boost.

You're going so fast the cloud gets left in the dust. Orks must choose between surviability and speed, not get rewarded for it!

i think the whole orks codex needs an overhauls. i like the idea of no formations in the base codex an instead bonus special rules that count towards a specific other unit

for example

ork slugga boyz: synergy bonus (3): if your army contains a deff dread they gain rage

in this way you read it ork slugga boyz ( the unit you need to take) synergy bonus (3) (the number indicates how many of a squad you need to take to gain this special bonus), and then the bonus

heres a rough list i hammered out over some tea. these are also a total rough draft and totally in need of not only playtesting but a more serious long term read of the ork codex, i only own the book and dont play the actual army myself so theres only so much i could ever learn from a printed page. and as i read i am learning new things with every fresh set of eyes i put on it so its a total work in progress and i cant stress that enough. these would be a huge boost to the orks and let them stand apart from this formation spam nonsense that the orks are far beyond being able to assemble. orks dont have plans or troop formations. there big mobz of angry plant fungus. the last time one of them had a plan it was to take the stairs over scaling the wall to get at someone so he could rip there arms off.

gretchin mob synergy bonus (3): all vehicles dont pay for grot riggers or ammo runts unless superheavy (in which case the cost is halved rounded up)

slugga boyz synergy bonus (2): your gretchin gain fearless, and your army may take one free additional looted wagon (this wagon still pays for upgrades, and takes up a slot on the force org chart, but doesnt count towards synergy bonuses)

shoota boyz mob synergy bonus (3): your nobz squads gain feel no pain (6+) or +1 to their fnp roll result if they already have feel no pain

looted wagon synergy bonus (4): your warbuggies can make 2 shooting attacks every shooting phase after the first turn

wartrukks synergy bonus (2): your deffkoptas gain deepstrike

deff dread synergy bonus (1): your mekboys improve their armour save by +1

mekboyz synergy bonus (2): if your army contains a gorkanaut/morkanaut they gain assault vehicle

ghazkull thraka synergy bonus (1): your army gains a wartrukk or deff dread at no cost (they however still take up a force org slot, note that this free unit counts towards synergy bonuses).

stompa synergy bonus (1): as long as your stompa remains alive your army is immune to the mob rule, if the stompa is killed however everyone must roll on the mob rule chart that isnt joined by an independent character.

the idea here is to make units ramp up and out towards other units and through their combined bonuses the army becomes stronger. the stompa gets a huge boon but its boon is earned because its a lord of war superheavy walker for crying out loud. it also has a drawback and its sort of the buildup unit, things build up to that point.

ghazkuls buff seems a bit wild when you dwell on it but thats okay ghazkull needs more table time and i think this would encourage it

I like this idea because it encourages taking lots of models/squads to maximize the effectiveness of synergy. I never understand why GW thinks "just give them formations that force them to take a million boyz that'll represent orks well" is acceptable.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
I like this idea because it encourages taking lots of models/squads to maximize the effectiveness of synergy. I never understand why GW thinks "just give them formations that force them to take a million boyz that'll represent orks well" is acceptable.

its not acceptible its just easier for them to print out because their rules department is powered on brain surgery test subject monkeys


Automatically Appended Next Post:
here ill rollout a hard list for now and come back to it as i go at it:
hq:

warboss zagstruck synergy bonus (1): stormawaaaagh: if your army contains any stormboyz you can call a second waaaagh that effects only your stormboyz

mad doc grotsnik synergy bonus (1): testy subjectz 45778p: before the start of the game the unit that joins grotsnik rolls a d6 if 1-5 that unit has rage, if 6 that unit gains eternal warrior instead

kaptain badrukk synergy bonus (1): lockemz and loademz: if your army contains any flash gitz they (along with badrukk) gain twin linked for a single turn of your choosing

ork boss snikkrot synergy bonus (1): mastahz of sneaky: if the unit snikkrot joins can infiltrate they can do so anywhere on the field ignoring normal limitations

wierdboy synergy bonus (2): mind waaagh: if your army contains a warboss; on your turn you can choose to kill one of your weirdboyz to preform an additional waaagh (this does not count towards kill points or unit casualties)

warboss synergy bonus (3): gatherin of da clanz: if your army contains one unit from each slot (fast, troops, heavy support, and elite) all 3 warbosses must be killed to achieve slay the warlord, however if all three are killed your enemy scores d3 vp/killpoints (in addition to slay the warlord)

painboy synergy bonus (1): battle powdery fingy: if your army contains nobz or meganobz one unit of them gain rage (you may choose)

big mek synergy bonus (1): da lucky wagon: if your army contains a battlewagon it may take one vehicle upgrade for free.

mekboy synergy bonus (2): da attackzy boomdoor upgrade: if your army contains a gorkanaut/morkanaut they gain assault vehicle

grukk face-rippa synergy bonus (1): terror of sanctus reach: your army gains preferred enemy: imperium while grukk is alive

-------

troops:

gretchin mob synergy bonus (3): servants to da bigga boyz: all vehicles dont pay for grot riggers or ammo runts unless superheavy (in which case the cost is halved rounded up)

slugga boyz synergy bonus (2): dem boyz warpaint : your gretchin gain fearless, and your army may take one free additional looted wagon (this wagon still pays for upgrades, and takes up a slot on the force org chart, but doesnt count towards synergy bonuses)

shoota boyz mob synergy bonus (3): boyz in da waagh: your nobz squads gain feel no pain (6+) or +1 to their fnp roll result if they already have feel no pain

-----

elite:

meganobz synergy bonus (1): krushin krew: if your army contains a mekboy your meganobz gain armourbane

tankbustas synergy bonus (3): extra squig: if your army has a warboss as your warlord they gain the attack squig as a free upgrade

burna boyz squad synergy bonus (3): dem burny tips: if your army contains any lootaz their ranged weapons gain fleshbane

kommandos squad synergy bonus (1): sneakyz an' stabby lessonz: nominate one unit in your army (that contains no vehicles) they gain the outflank special rule

Nobz squad synergy bonus (2): biggest of da boyz: if there are any friendly slugga boyz or shoota boyz with 10" of a nobz squad they are allowed a re-roll of their mob rule table result

------

fast:

stormboyz synergy bonus (3): samsha fightin stylez: if your army contains any vehicles with the (flying) type they gain the ability to make a stormakaze attackz with the following profile:

s9 ap2 ignores cover, large blast, kamikaze
kamikaze: this attack can be preformed only after this model has been on the field for one full player turn. this attack ignores any effects of magic on the target, but destroys the friendly attacking model in the process


ill write more later, as stated these are a rough draft and i will probably go back to correct some of it

I had to chuckle at the notion of fearless gretchin. Hehehe...we'll turn the Orks into old school fantasy Skaven slaves or rat swarms!

Not sure about the Stompa rule eliminating mob rule for the *whole* army...maybe granting a reroll or something. I think Mob Rule should be dealt with directly, rather than adding negations or ad hoc solutions through other units/bonuses. But these are some interesting ideas, here.

 General_K wrote:
I had to chuckle at the notion of fearless gretchin. Hehehe...we'll turn the Orks into old school fantasy Skaven slaves or rat swarms!

Not sure about the Stompa rule eliminating mob rule for the *whole* army...maybe granting a reroll or something. I think Mob Rule should be dealt with directly, rather than adding negations or ad hoc solutions through other units/bonuses. But these are some interesting ideas, here.

the stompa is an icon of gork & mork, a living mechanical manifestation of their will and as stated its the model your army builds up too. and if gork and mork fight with you i scarcely see a reason for you to be bickering amongst yourselves or faltering in the middle of an attack. a re-roll is a bit pointless because the bosspole exist it already does that .

My Orky ideas, some have been seen in other places, but ere we go:

Ere we go rule: As is, with addition of no penalties on disordered charges.
Mob rule: As is except you count wounds instead of heads for numbers, also 2-3 is squabble 4+ is breaking heads. (This actually makes 'Da Boss is Watchin' a big boost instead of a huge nerf.
Uge Choppa: As is may exchange all attacks for 1 sx2 AP2 attack
At I1
Kommandos come with Tankbustas bombs. The models have them, it is fluffy and useful.
Ramshackle works on 5+ and all Ork vehicles have it.
Cybork body gives 6+ fnp, or +1 to fnp

These are the ones that I believe still fall within reason and would help immensely.