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So I've been wondering about the Aspect Paths recently that don't have Phoenix Lords, specifically the Warp Spiders, Shining Spears and Crimson Hunters (if there's a fourth I've missed let me know). Has their ever been a mention of these Aspects having Phoenix Lords or is there anything to indicate why they don't?

The Shining Spears do have a named Phoenix Lord: Drastranta, but he has dissappeared.
The others also have Phoenix Lords, but same as with Drastranta, they have gone missing over time and no fluff has simply ever touched on them. Maybe, like so much things in Eldar society, they have simply been forgotten over the millennia, lost in the mists of time.

There is also Arhra

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Arhra

The Slicing Orbs of Zandros don't have a named phoenix lord either, and I'm not sure about the Shadow Spectres (although I personally favour that their primarch is the Eldar Pariah).

Shadow Specters Phoenix Lord is Irrilyth, he has rules on forge world.

Warp Spiders have a possibly cannon Phoenix lord (not outright stated to be a Phoenix Lord, but he fitted the description) during one of Gav Thorpes old book Eldar Prophecy. It speaks of an Exarch that disappeared into the Webway and returns every few thousand years to pacify the craftworld and he is said to have powers of the Asuryata (Phoenix Lords). He is called Lkykosidae the "Wraith Spider". If he is cannon is up for debate, but I like the idea better then them not having one.

The blanket reason for aspect warriors without Phoenix lords is that the armor of the Phoenix Lords (which is how they reincarnate) lies dead and inert on some forgotten world. Once it's found, the Phoenix lord can return. This is assuming, ofc, that the suit wasn't destroyed.

If an Aspect was founded just a millennium ago, would the first Exarch be considered a Phoenix Lord?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Shadow Specters Phoenix Lord is Irrilyth, he has rules on forge world.

Warp Spiders have a possibly cannon Phoenix lord (not outright stated to be a Phoenix Lord, but he fitted the description) during one of Gav Thorpes old book Eldar Prophecy. It speaks of an Exarch that disappeared into the Webway and returns every few thousand years to pacify the craftworld and he is said to have powers of the Asuryata (Phoenix Lords). He is called Lkykosidae the "Wraith Spider". If he is cannon is up for debate, but I like the idea better then them not having one.

Uh, Alex?

Eldar Prophesy was written by C.S. Goto. Just so you're aware.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The blanket reason for aspect warriors without Phoenix lords is that the armor of the Phoenix Lords (which is how they reincarnate) lies dead and inert on some forgotten world. Once it's found, the Phoenix lord can return. This is assuming, ofc, that the suit wasn't destroyed.

I don't think the suits can be destroyed. I keep recallin a section possibly in the 4th Ed codex fluff, suggesting that Asurmen's armour was once jettisoned towards a star and later found empty on the nearest Craftworld? Or am I making that up?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The blanket reason for aspect warriors without Phoenix lords is that the armor of the Phoenix Lords (which is how they reincarnate) lies dead and inert on some forgotten world. Once it's found, the Phoenix lord can return. This is assuming, ofc, that the suit wasn't destroyed.

Well, it's an excuse for lazyness I suppose, I mean at this point Asurman has effectively been missing for millenia as well. I just thought it would be nice if the Aspects that don't have a model and rules for their Phoenix Lords at least had some kind of mention of them in the fluff since it feels like a bit of a whole at the moment.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Slicing Orbs of Zandros don't have a named phoenix lord either, and I'm not sure about the Shadow Spectres (although I personally favour that their primarch is the Eldar Pariah).

What are the Slicing Orbs of Zandros? Doesn't remotely sound like an Aspect Path and more like a specific shrine.

They're a footnote from second edition, along with the Ebon Talons and Crystal Dragons.

The name Slicing Orbs of Zandros is incredible (but not very eldar). Then again I also play ork so if I can give some ork vibe to my eldars I will. I wonder how they should look like or be armed with? I guess a slicing orb is in order, but orbs aren't things that can be sharpenned easily. We need emergency fluff for these guys even if they will probably never return to the light.

I imagine something like a couple of circular saw blades are perpendicular angles that are telekinetically manipulated to float around the warrior intercepting shots, spinning,and cutting things to shrebbons.

Bharring wrote:
If an Aspect was founded just a millennium ago, would the first Exarch be considered a Phoenix Lord?

More or less yes. Phoenix Lords are basically the first Exarchs of their Shrine.

It's implied that there are hundreds of obscure niche aspect warriors, but they're not widely known because they usually only exist on one or two Craftworlds out in the middle of nowhere.

The one thing that most of the current Phoenix Lords have (with the exception of Karandras) is that they were all students of Asurmen, and took their philosophies of combat from him. This means that technically they were probably all Dire Avengers at one point. Asurmen himself is unique in that he's the Original Exarch, the founder of the idea of Aspect Warriors.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
If an Aspect was founded just a millennium ago, would the first Exarch be considered a Phoenix Lord?

More or less yes. Phoenix Lords are basically the first Exarchs of their Shrine.

It's implied that there are hundreds of obscure niche aspect warriors, but they're not widely known because they usually only exist on one or two Craftworlds out in the middle of nowhere.

The one thing that most of the current Phoenix Lords have (with the exception of Karandras) is that they were all students of Asurmen, and took their philosophies of combat from him. This means that technically they were probably all Dire Avengers at one point. Asurmen himself is unique in that he's the Original Exarch, the founder of the idea of Aspect Warriors.

This!

Would there be any real difference between a Phoenix Lord of a newly-established Aspect and an equally-experienced/aged Exarch of an older Aspect?

Conversely, wouldn't the second Dire Avenger Exarch be more skilled/better than even Karrandas (but at different things)?

What I'm saying is, isn't it the berth of souls and large amount of experience/age that makes the "known" Phoenix Lords what they are, not the fact that they are Phoenix Lords?

The Asurya (which basically composed of all of the current Phoenix Lords barring Asurmen) were basically the "second exarchs" of the Dire Avengers.

From what I gather, the difference between a very "new" Phoenix Lord and that of a really old exarch is a formality only. However a Phoenix Lord will always be the most senior member of his/her shrine, as he/she will be it's founder (and thus know all of the disciplines needed for that shrine). It doesn't mean it can't be usurped though, since Karandras successfully did it when Arhra fell. Phoenix Lords also have unique Aspect Armor that is different than even the Exarch Armor, which is how their personality reincarnates in the newest person to don the armor, rather than just have their experiences passed on to whoever wears it.

However much of the fluff has changed over time. If I remember, before the introduction of the Shadow Spectres, the Phoenix Lords were indeed different from the Exarchs and exclusively came from the students of Asurmen . Nowadays there are some hints that any Eldar can become a Phoenix Lord as long as they devise a new method of making war.

Is the armor actually different?

I thought the lore was that, because of how large the total personality of a Phoenix Lord is, the new wearer's personality is lost in the noise. A small, virtually 0 fraction of the whole Phoenix Lord personality.

As an Exarch takes on more personalities/souls over the years, wouldn't that become true for them too?

The armour tends to be higher quality. I think when new souls join a Phoenix Lord they get completely absorbed and it's one of the few ways Exarchs can die permanently.

There was a short story in White Dwarf, years and years ago, I think it might have made it into the 3rd or 4th edition Eldar codex... in it, Karandras falls out of a webway portal into a Striking Scorpion aspect shrine with half his armour missing.

Inside the armour is just a swirling starscape. The Exarch of the Shrine grabs Karandras' hand to help him stand up, and is absorbed by the armour - zip, schloop, gone - leaving no trace of the Exarch or the Exarch's armour but restoring Karandras' armour to full integrity.

 Imateria wrote:
So I've been wondering about the Aspect Paths recently that don't have Phoenix Lords, specifically the Warp Spiders, Shining Spears and Crimson Hunters (if there's a fourth I've missed let me know). Has their ever been a mention of these Aspects having Phoenix Lords or is there anything to indicate why they don't?

As already stated they went missing, or died or in the case of Arhra turned to chaos.

What MechaEmperor7000 wrote is true, but many of them have died multiple times in old fluff. As with all OLD FLUFF it may not be applicable to current storyline, but If I recall some of it correctly:

Phoenix Lord armor housed a gestalt consciousness where all the previous hosts essence was absorbed and became that of the original Phoenix Lord (of that type). While the body of the person can be killed his experiences live on in the next to wear the Phoenix Lord armor.

While, I don't think GW will ever have them return and develop models, it would be possible that the missing/dead Phoenix Lord can return if their armor is found.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Slicing Orbs of Zandros, Ebon Talons and Crystal Dragons.

May not refer to a new aspect shrine but a name of a specific "Dojo". Sorry best word I could think of. There are several Dire avenger shrines on most craftworlds each may have a unique name such as the ones you mentioned, almost like unit names. even Armies in a craftworld may have unique title instead of humanized number system, instead of things like 101st Airborne, you may find things like: Moon Tower Sect.... sorry the best I can do for creative thinking this morning, but you get the idea.

There are fluff mentions of actual Aspects not covered by models. They aren't just shrines of existing Aspects.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

May not refer to a new aspect shrine but a name of a specific "Dojo". Sorry best word I could think of. There are several Dire avenger shrines on most craftworlds each may have a unique name such as the ones you mentioned, almost like unit names. even Armies in a craftworld may have unique title instead of humanized number system, instead of things like 101st Airborne, you may find things like: Moon Tower Sect.... sorry the best I can do for creative thinking this morning, but you get the idea.

They were explicitly referred to as Aspects, not just shrines.