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I purchased the Betrayal box set, was looking at future "specialist" units of different armies, the stack of Big Black Books, the two Big Red Books and saw that one of the Big Red Books were recently updated. Being a customer of Gdub since the late 90s, I''ve seen a lot of people get burned buying/building/purchasing stuff for an army that suddenly gets revamped. Suddenly, that person is stuck buying additional stuff when they haven't even used what they just bought for very long.

So, is there a Legion a little long in the tooth to stay away from? The stuff from Book 1 Betrayal and even Book 2 Massacre is getting pretty old. Should I stay away and just select a newer book for my legion?

Is there a really bad match between any specific Legion and the Betrayal box set? By "bad match" I mean a large number of models being unusable?

Im wanting to jump in to 30k, but the even higher price tag is making me very cautious about throwing money away. The main legions I have an interest in are: World Eaters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels or Raven Guard. I was even considering Book 6 Retribution with the Shadow Wars stuff to spread by army over several Legions to further dilute the chance that a specific rule change would seriously affect my army.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

There isnt anything to stay away from to be honest and no legion is bad, 30k forgeworld rules are actually very good because the whole space marine army list is the same with each legion having a couple stand alone units.
Best book to get when starting out is the new red The Age of Darkness legions book and wait for the new crusade army list book because it seems its gonna get re released soon with all of the newer units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Betrayal at calth is perfect as most legions lists will have about 2 big 20 man tactical squads as the base. I bought 4 boxes since release just because they are so versatile.

Book Six is the only place you will get Dark Angels rules for a while.

The updated Red book has nothing to do with revamping the rules or completely changing everything. It brought in the units and Legions that weren't in the original Legions Red Book (because that was just Istvaan) and had a couple updates to some of the Legion Rules and some of the Special Units to bring them more in line with the newer stuff that has been coming out.

Like King was saying there really aren't good and bad things in 30k since it's so well balanced. Find a playstyle you like and go from there.

Thanks for the responses.

So every legion uses the models from Betrayal. And all I need are both red books? (and waiting for new red book to come out of course) Unless I play Dark Angels or Blood Angels? Then I'd need the black book they came in?

I guess I was hoping to eliminate some Legions and make my choice easier. Now is the hard part, picking a legion. I enjoy CC style better, even if rules don't favor CC armies. I am leaning so far towards World Eaters. I played them in 3rd edition.

But the look of some of the other Chapters like Raven Guard (dark wing assault squad) and the DA in MII armor... bleh This won't be easy. Maybe I should consider book 6 and do shattered legions. Are there rules to run any combo? Like could you field Loyalist World Eaters and Raven Guard?

Plenty of options that favour close combat. Loyalist or traitor? Top 5 favourite colours?

 Zuul wrote:
Plenty of options that favour close combat. Loyalist or traitor? Top 5 favourite colours?

Ive painted DA and World Eaters so probably wanna stay away from Dark Green and maroon. I also have a large ork army painted dark blue

How bout CC oriented, either loyalist or traitor, and not maroon, green or dark blue?

Imperial fists are pretty CC oriented.

Could do
Luna Wolves (white)
Raven Guard (black)
World Eaters (white and blue)
Dark Angels (Black)
War Hounds (grey and white)

Emperor's Children! Duh!

FW lists don't get radically changed the way GW prime's army lists do. Just look at DKoK, Eldar Corsairs, Armoured Company, ect. All of these army lists more or less use the same units, and the units do the same thing.

It's not like Chaos losing it's legion rules, Carnifex's going threw multiple massive revamps, ect. If anything playing a FW army future proofs you more then a normal GW army.

This looks to be more or less true in regards to were FW is takeing their 30k army lists. Their wasn't any huge changes when the legion red book was updated. The biggest change to how a unit is used was Iron Warrior Tyrant Siege Terminators going to Heavy Support. But the unit still works the same way players expect it to work, the changes are more like small balance tweaks.

It's the reason why alot of people have been holding the rules for FW's 30k in pretty high regard.

Also, since everyone uses the core 'legion rules', if they decide people aren't using enough regular tactical squads, and throw a curve ball in and give an option which makes legion tactical squads godlike (for some bizzare example), then no legion gets disadvantaged because everyone gets the option.

It'd be the equivalent of GW simultaneously updating the Space Marine, Chaos Space Marine, Space Wolf, Dark Angel and Blood Angel codices every time. Yes, there are still winners and losers with every rules change, but you don't see codex creep so much.

Plus, FW have been prepared to go "sorry, we screwed up" much more readily. In the last couple of releases, Castellax battle-automata have been toned down, and thudd guns moved to their own entry which - whilst it has more options - costs quite a bit more too.

If you go with an army you think looks cool, you won't go far wrong.

If you've no strong feelings about alignment, consider a Blackshield force. Blackshield marauders are lethal in close combat and make for very impressive conversion opportunities, Because who doesn't like marauding space marine pirates with shotguns and chainaxes? (Cyber-parrot optional).

Honestly if you want CC then Emperors Children are where its at, your basic guys get +1 initiative on the charge, and characters get a further +1 if they are in a challenge and if they have sonic shriekers any model in base contact with them is -1 WS and you can have a phoneix spear on anyone who could take a power fist which is +1S and AP2 on the charge and AP3 after. So if your sergeant assaults and challenges a preator they hit at the same time, if your preator or centurion assault they attack before the enemy preator and the enemy preator is WS5 instead of 6. Emperors Children are built for continuous assault, challenge and profit.


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The only way to be immune to the -1WS from sonic shreiker is to be immune to fear.

King Amroth wrote:
The only way to be immune to the -1WS from sonic shreiker is to be immune to fear.

wait, really? Chalk another one up to "special legion rules that DG ignore/mitigate"

Its a special piece of wargear, not a special rule.

same difference

Yea its fantastic and nicely mitigated by the -1 to morale for losing combat if you lose the challenge. However Deathguard still get killed by 1 or 2 initiative steps in CC lol

locarno24 wrote:

If you go with an army you think looks cool, you won't go far wrong.

If you've no strong feelings about alignment, consider a Blackshield force. Blackshield marauders are lethal in close combat and make for very impressive conversion opportunities, Because who doesn't like marauding space marine pirates with shotguns and chainaxes? (Cyber-parrot optional).

After reading everyone's comments, I think I may actually get Book six Retribution and go Black Shields or even Knights Errant. Book six also has Blood Angels and Dark Angels, two armies I play the 40k version of. This way i can paint any legions I want, and if I find I really like a specific one, I can just expand.

So I get Book Six, and both Red Books (hold off on getting the one red book until new one comes out)?

If anyone has anything to add about armies in book six please don't hesitate to add your comments!

well, there's not really a knights errant army, as much as you can take up to 2 Knights errant IN an army ('cause you need at least 1 compulsory HQ)

as for the armies in book 6:

dark angels are strong when you compile their buffs, equipment, and RoWs
blood angels are strong, but have some outright broken and poorly worded rules at the moment (cough hand flamer moritat and assault cannon spam cough)
White scars seem okay, but don't stand out when compared to the other two (these guys I'm actually considering as allies for my TS )

Both angel legions are strong the white scars are sort of a lame duck in 30k from a ROW point of view but obviously thats not that important as they can still make a really strong force.
And yea deffinetly wait for the new Legion red book as its in the pipe but the Age of Darkness legions has just came out this month so it will last years probably.

 Brennonjw wrote:
well, there's not really a knights errant army, as much as you can take up to 2 Knights errant IN an army ('cause you need at least 1 compulsory HQ)

as for the armies in book 6:

dark angels are strong when you compile their buffs, equipment, and RoWs
blood angels are strong, but have some outright broken and poorly worded rules at the moment (cough hand flamer moritat and assault cannon spam cough)
White scars seem okay, but don't stand out when compared to the other two (these guys I'm actually considering as allies for my TS )

Ah ok. I was thinking Knights errant was some 30k Grey Knights stuff. The description of Garro's model describes him as first and foremost Knight Errant. I thought it might be cool building an army around him based off first few HH novels.

Nah, they are specialty HQs you can throw in to flavor up the army.

On a slightly off note since we were talking about the books. Does the new red book cover the newer characters from the word bearers and the Ultramorons?

Col. Dash wrote:
On a slightly off note since we were talking about the books. Does the new red book cover the newer characters from the word bearers and the Ultramorons?

yes, the new legions red book covers everything but book 6. Also, it's funny that the worst legion still hates the smurfs. now go back to your prissy primarch, inter-legion team killing, and that donkey-cave erebus

Ah ok. I was thinking Knights errant was some 30k Grey Knights stuff. The description of Garro's model describes him as first and foremost Knight Errant. I thought it might be cool building an army around him based off first few HH novels.

Sort of. The Knights Errant are actually probably closer to the Deathwatch - oddballs recruited from all the legions and sent off by Malcador on covert, suicidal, and often questionably ethical missions behind the scenes.

They're not an army in and off themselves, rather they're an 'agent of the emperor' - meaning they're a bolt-in to any loyalist imperial army as a non-compulsory HQ.

They're good fun, and I recommend trying them. Taking two in an army can really shift the dynamic of games, because their rule essentially gives you a second, secret objective that if you can complete gives you a massive wodge of victory points and if you fail, you can only draw at best.

Taking an extreme example, a Delegatus Consul with the Chosen Duty Rite Of War, and two Knights-Errant with Protector trying to keep him alive fit in a normal force chart easily.

If the Delegatus gets killed, your opponent will get 1 VP from Warlord Kill, 1 from Chosen Duty, and because you've failed an Oath Of Moment, the best you can do is draw the game, regardless of the score.

If the Delegatus survives, you get 1 VP from Chosen Duty, and 2 each from the Knights for Protector.

That's a 7-point swing based on the survival of one model. Of course, your opponent doesn't know if the Knights took protector, but with that much at stake he can't exactly afford to take the risk that you have. So you can troll the consul in front of him at the heart of whatever gnarly defensive deathtrap your twisted little soul desires, knowing he can't afford not to come in after him...and only when his Praetor finds himself going toe-to-toe with the Nemean Reaver does he discover that you've actually taken Headsman and he's walked right into it.

BrennonJW, I just think they have a cool paint scheme lol. I want to do a red army. Borderline wanting dark red BA and use them for both 30 and 40k.

Col. Dash wrote:
BrennonJW, I just think they have a cool paint scheme lol. I want to do a red army. Borderline wanting dark red BA and use them for both 30 and 40k.

BAH! good excuse, you zealot (It's all good, they are just one of the 2 legions I really dislike: Dark Angels (more for their 40k shenanigans, though not so bad in 30k. the exact opposite of space wolves for me ), and Word bearers (mostly because I read and loved betrayer, which basically made 1 good word bearer, and then killed him off (head honcho of the gal vorbak )))

locarno24 wrote:

Ah ok. I was thinking Knights errant was some 30k Grey Knights stuff. The description of Garro's model describes him as first and foremost Knight Errant. I thought it might be cool building an army around him based off first few HH novels.

Sort of. The Knights Errant are actually probably closer to the Deathwatch - oddballs recruited from all the legions and sent off by Malcador on covert, suicidal, and often questionably ethical missions behind the scenes.

They're not an army in and off themselves, rather they're an 'agent of the emperor' - meaning they're a bolt-in to any loyalist imperial army as a non-compulsory HQ.

They're good fun, and I recommend trying them. Taking two in an army can really shift the dynamic of games, because their rule essentially gives you a second, secret objective that if you can complete gives you a massive wodge of victory points and if you fail, you can only draw at best.

Taking an extreme example, a Delegatus Consul with the Chosen Duty Rite Of War, and two Knights-Errant with Protector trying to keep him alive fit in a normal force chart easily.

If the Delegatus gets killed, your opponent will get 1 VP from Warlord Kill, 1 from Chosen Duty, and because you've failed an Oath Of Moment, the best you can do is draw the game, regardless of the score.

If the Delegatus survives, you get 1 VP from Chosen Duty, and 2 each from the Knights for Protector.

That's a 7-point swing based on the survival of one model. Of course, your opponent doesn't know if the Knights took protector, but with that much at stake he can't exactly afford to take the risk that you have. So you can troll the consul in front of him at the heart of whatever gnarly defensive deathtrap your twisted little soul desires, knowing he can't afford not to come in after him...and only when his Praetor finds himself going toe-to-toe with the Nemean Reaver does he discover that you've actually taken Headsman and he's walked right into it.

The more I hear about the Book 6 stuff, the more settled I get on doing that style army for 30k. It looks like they even have some formations with specific groupings of legions. I may just make blocks of troops from different legions and combine them depending on what I want to run. Once I get the books I can iron it out. Eventually I could expand enough to field specific Legions.